Prostheta Posted January 18, 2023 Report Share Posted January 18, 2023 19 minutes ago, nakedzen said: I saw someone rub 80 grit papers together to get some grains mixed in the glue, as an alternative for the salt trick. The only problem here is that aluminium oxide/silicon carbide grit will damage any cutting tools it encounters. Not hugely, but it won't improve them at all Salt is resilient enough to stay granular in a normal glue film, but break when cut. As for Richlite, I would use epoxy. Anything that is a composite of resins will have questionable wetting compared to wood, so reliance is going to be on a mechanical bond. That means breaking surfaces with 80-120 grit, cleaning with acetone, wetting both with epoxy and having non-excessive and equal clamping pressure. I've not worked with Richlite, so I would be cautious and go with what is guaranteed to work. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted January 18, 2023 Report Share Posted January 18, 2023 30 minutes ago, nakedzen said: I saw someone rub 80 grit papers together to get some grains mixed in the glue, as an alternative for the salt trick. That reminds me of the cheap Chinese sandpaper I once bought, a half of an inch thick bunch of mixed grits in a plastic bag. It looked like there was more sand in the bag than on the papers! And what was left was soon rubbed off right after the remaining grains had scratched serious grooves on the surface to be sanded. Since I rarely toss anything away, I might be able to find the bag and use the sand for adding friction! But only on areas that won't be touched with tools... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted January 18, 2023 Report Share Posted January 18, 2023 Richlite tells to use epoxy only, although other glues may be recommended on luthiery boards and videos. Thing is, how extensive testing has anyone made outside Richlite themselves. Just as an example, Ben at Crimson Guitars had at some stage used polyurethane glue for fretboards. Then all of a sudden one neck fell on the floor during a maintenance operation and the fretboard just snapped off! For reliability the shock effect was tested with other necks, both old and new ones with the same result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 18, 2023 Report Share Posted January 18, 2023 26 minutes ago, Bizman62 said: Richlite tells to use epoxy only, although other glues may be recommended on luthiery boards and videos. Thing is, how extensive testing has anyone made outside Richlite themselves. Just as an example, Ben at Crimson Guitars had at some stage used polyurethane glue for fretboards. Then all of a sudden one neck fell on the floor during a maintenance operation and the fretboard just snapped off! For reliability the shock effect was tested with other necks, both old and new ones with the same result. I heard about that, and it absolutely does not surprise me. Polyurethane glues are absolutely not appropriate, and anybody that has a reasonable level of technical knowledge about adhesives would know this. Ben has always come across as somebody who plays a confidence game rather than somebody who has defensible ideas to bring to the table. I have a particular dislike for people who sell poor-to-dangerous ideas as some sort of acceptable method, let alone a standard for others to follow. That's the worst sort of "teaching", because he absolutely needs to take responsibility for the appropriateness of anything put out into the public sphere under the flag of "professional" luthier. Some kid copies his method and loses a finger? That's on him. I could never recommend anything that propagates ignorance over safe and defensible knowledge. Rant over. Definitely not polyurethane! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostdive Posted January 18, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2023 I'll give it a walloping with a rubber mallet when I next see it. I kind of just hate epoxy anyway - stinks, gets everywhere, don't know how thick a layer I need, don't know how much pressure to use. Whether it works or not I may just use something else for future projects. I like the uniform black but could live without for ease of assembly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 18, 2023 Report Share Posted January 18, 2023 Epoxy doesn't need to be a thick layer. Just a consistent film on both surfaces. Clamping does not need to be too tight, just enough to close up any glue line. I used to hate it as well, however once I started planning ahead and staying in control of the job (doing a dry run, putting everything in place to hand, etc) it became much nicer to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostdive Posted January 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 After much walloping with a rubber mallet, truss rod adjusted hard both ways, it seems solid - so naturally I decided to mess up drilling for the tuners. I'm laughing it off, not losing my mind, I swear! If the tuners fit I'm not even gonna fix it, I don't care. If I must, so be it. The A string hole is about .5mm off-center towards the low E. Which I guess is not a huge deal. Sigh. Headstock thicknessed successfully, so I'm running out of things to do before fretting. It's decided; I can no longer put off making the body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostdive Posted January 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 P.S. - here's a thing I threw together back in the day. I brought it out figuring I could use the tuners for a mockup, but they're way the wrong size. It would be a lot cooler if I had tried harder, but I much more enjoy winging it instead of things like measuring or jigs. I'll make a new body someday, complete with a neck that's on straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted January 24, 2023 Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 10 hours ago, ghostdive said: The A string hole is about .5mm off-center towards the low E. Which I guess is not a huge deal That's what it looked like to me before I read the explanation. If you want to fix it, simply take a round file and make the hole oval to the right direction, then fill the E side with a piece of 0.5 veneer or just a slice cut from a beverage can. It will all be hidden anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostdive Posted January 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 Boom. This thing is gonna be so sweet. Freehanded it cause I hate using the router, even in a table. The glue joint is pretty massively visible but I am not bothered! Next up is the dreaded neck pocket. Or the dreaded neck carving. Or the dreaded fret installation (saw needed to clean out a couple slots). Or the dreaded body roundover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted January 24, 2023 Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 A large visible glueline can be a sign of a poor joint. Do you have better photos of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostdive Posted January 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 It closes up just below the surface, it's fine. I'm still having trouble with squaring edges. Anyway, did some work today. Neck isn't glued yet, waiting for a bridge to be super sure that it's straight, but I'm fairly certain that it is. I checked with string. Frets 19-24 don't flare out as much as they should. Bit nervous about that but nothing I can do at the moment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killemall8 Posted January 26, 2023 Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 looking like a cool guitar. But man those upper frets are really buried in there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostdive Posted January 26, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 A little bit, but the guitar it's inspired by meets the body at the 17th fret too. I haven't done any shaping of the neck or behind the pocket yet but I can reach all of the frets without much trouble (long fingers). Suppose it isn't too late to narrow the body towards the top...but at the same time it looks and feels fine to me, so I leave it. Maybe when I make the white one I'll change it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostdive Posted January 26, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 (edited) Chiseled the nut slot and glued it in to check string alignment with some thread. If the bridge I buy has 2" spacing I'll have just enough space - it looks small, but checking my real guitar it's the same distance to the edge of the fretboard. The neck is on straight (triple-checked) so it seems I just ended up making it asymmetrical towards the bass side...oh well, a learning experience. I can get away with moving the bridge up to 6mm to the left to compensate, if I get a bridge with wider spacing, but I would like to avoid doing so if possible...shooting for a happy compromise of 1-2mm. I feel like the next thing I build will come out way better! So much so far that I would do differently. Edit: I /could/ try to add a sliver onto the fretboard to remedy the situation, but I don't know how I could possibly make it look good. Something for me to chew on. Edited January 26, 2023 by ghostdive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostdive Posted January 31, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 Made the most of my day this time. I'm still in disbelief that it's coming together okay. No major mishaps today! -Bridge and tailpiece perfect first try -Fret markers done (toothpicks!) -Roundover started (sad about the scorching, I was being too slow) -Nut roughly filed into place -Controls done, cavity in process (need to make cover and recess) I'll do more thorough tweaking to the truss rod/nut/bridge once the neck is glued, right now it's just the strap button screw holding it on. Intonation is perfect though, and I'm excited to play it soon. Last major thing before neck glue-up is pickups. For now I'm using these from my first full-size guitar, a Washburn LP-style thing. Half the time I play unplugged anyway, not in a rush to have nicer ones. I'm indecisive about mounting; either plastic rings, which will slightly increase their visual size and may look better with the larger body, or wood-mounted for style points (downside - buying a 3/8" pattern bit or getting way better at chiseling). I'll think it over as usual. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostdive Posted February 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2023 It's the wrong time to be agonizing over control locations but I have been since yesterday...I placed them by feel in order of importance, so I'm happy with that, but aesthetically I should have thought more about keeping them closer to center. Not a big deal but definitely something I'll remember on my next build. Still undecided on the jack location. When I'm plugged in I prefer to run the cable under the strap for security, but I also play seated sometimes and don't want it to interfere with that. Thinking maybe top-mounted near the controls or a recessed Strat type on the upper wing...or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostdive Posted February 14, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2023 It's been about ready for final sanding and finishing for a few days now, but I've been focusing on getting it playing okay. It does now - play okay - but not to the standard that I would like. After getting the neck as thin as possible without getting too weak, it now has decent relief. However...I'm having an interesting issue. It plays fine with acceptable action (nut height aside - not ready to drop $150 on files) but it looks weird. Seems like too late to be discouraged though, so I'll either address it or live with it as a glaring maker's mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Natural Posted February 14, 2023 Report Share Posted February 14, 2023 I hope you get that action sorted to your liking- this looks great! I love Vs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted February 14, 2023 Report Share Posted February 14, 2023 That's a massive issue. Why is it that uneven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostdive Posted February 14, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2023 I think two reasons: 1 - Stored tensions in the wood; I think in the future I'll at least have the neck nearer to final thickness before gluing the fretboard, as I ended up removing a large amount. I may give future necks a quick curve with a 1/2" roundover bit as well just to help it along. Somewhat related - next build I'll fret the board before gluing. 2 - I had clamped and heated the neck a couple times recently in an attempt to cure the backbow introduced by too-tight frets. It did help a bit, but I think it may have introduced...other problems. The treble side of the neck is much closer to straight. I have some tricks to try on the bass side and I'm thinking I can level out the high-fret ramp - if that fails I'll do something else. P.S. - for the record, standard wood glue with both surfaces scuffed at 80 grit is holding strong on the Richlite. I keep expecting the board to pop off but at this point I think the truss rod would snap first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted February 14, 2023 Report Share Posted February 14, 2023 3 hours ago, ghostdive said: nut height aside - not ready to drop $150 on files It looks like that the nut is very high. There are alternatives to those special files. Regular needle files can do the job. Granted a good quality set costs more than a nut file set, but if you only need them for filing bone or plastic nuts you can do with a bargain set. And of course you can buy quality files separately. For nuts you only need one or two. Obviously it is more laborious as you don't have the right width for each slot, but doable. Before I invested in nut files I used a set of modified feeler gauges along with needle files. I ground a saw tooth pattern to one edge of the gauges I needed, and sharpened them. Not a very long lasting tool but cheap and does cut bone just fine. But if the neck is as uneven as it looks like in the picture you can't really make the nut much lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted February 14, 2023 Report Share Posted February 14, 2023 4 hours ago, ghostdive said: nut height aside - not ready to drop $150 on files I've been using a set of feeler gauges for all of my guitars and the set has also been used by a bunch of fellow builders. For a dozen or more bone nuts I'd call that long lasting enough! Unlike @henrim I didn't grind any saw tooth pattern to one edge, instead I tried to create a rounded filing edge. A coarse file creates a fine cutting edge, a hobby metal saw blade ran sideways at a 30-ish angle added some bite. As may be visible in the images the entire length of the gauge has been filed but during the process I noticed that only the slanted tip needs to be made to a filing edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted February 14, 2023 Report Share Posted February 14, 2023 2 hours ago, Bizman62 said: I didn't grind any saw tooth pattern to one edge, instead I tried to create a rounded filing edge While the teeth in mine are rather small I believe they are still coarser the edge in yours. Usage is different too. I used them more like a saw to mark the width of the nut slot. I then used needle files to cut the depth. I like your approach though. That way feeler gauges last way longer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted February 14, 2023 Report Share Posted February 14, 2023 I think it would be a good time to consider that there are significant fundamental issues here that cannot be addressed without significant work. At the very least, identify them and take that forward to your next build so you are always improving. What I'd say about wood that you suspect has internal tensions, is that it should not be used for a neck. Wood will always move how it wants to move in spite of what you do against that, so using good stable wood is the bare minimum. If you're thinking of making any more builds going forwards, consider designs that are bolt-on. That way you can replace the neck the more you get a feel for what is working an what isn't, rather than a wavy pretzel torpedo'ing your entire instrument! You mentioned making the neck "as thin as possible". The best starting point for a thin-feeling neck is to make the fingerboard as thin as it needs to be. A mm of excess on the fingerboard means you'll take another mm off the neck. I aim for no more than 6mm or 1/4" otherwise things can get a bit limited in where you can take the neck profile. You can always use wound guitar strings as files. Tension a string up and use epoxy to glue it to the side of a popsicle stick or something like that. Perfect profile and width. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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