SwedishLuthier

I think that some of the postings in this tread have had a very hard edge to them. Can we please stop this and go on with the task of finding better ways to build guitars. If some of us actually think that the references to different kinds of structural beams make sense, it shouldn’t be put down by other participants. So, I’ve finished the tests. This is what I did: I don’t like the idea of using expensive tone woods and graphite rods for a possible destructive test, and I wouldn’t like to place an order at my supplier for graphite rods only. So instead of quite hard and strong tone wood and super strong graphite reinforcements, I used a very soft and flexible wood (I had some straight grained pine laying around) and a very hard and strong wood (oak) as reinforcement. It should work just the same way by means of strong reinforcements embedded in a more flexible surrounding. I used three different neck blanks for the test, all of them laminated to avoid differences created from the fact that I had to laminate one neck blank for “my method”. The first reference blank is pure pine (let’s call it #1). The second is reinforced with square oak rods, parallel to an imaginary trussrod (#2). The third had thin laminates of oak sandwiched between the pine (#3). All measurements are of cause identical, and the rods in #2 are a little wider apart than the laminates in #3 I did three different tests on the blanks For the first test I simply put the blanks on dual supports. Then I stood on the blanks and measured how much the blanks bent. This test equals the resistance against bending caused by the static string pull on a real neck. For the second test I first tried the same thing with the blanks standing on their side, but the deflection was too small to get good readings. So I clamped the end of the blanks to my work bench (equal overhang) and hang a heavy motor onto the end of the blanks and measured the deflection. This test shows us how the blanks will resist sideways bending. BTW Sideway bending is NOT primarily caused by gravity as Wes thought I meant, but more likely caused by weaker parts in the wood being close to one side of the neck, thus making the neck bend from the compression put on the neck by the strings. They can bend both up or down. I have had customers that have had this problem with some Fender necks (high volume = poor quality check). For the third test I clamped one end of the blanks to my work bench. On the second end I clamped a straight, strong piece of oak as a lever. Then I placed my dial indicator at the end of the lever and hang the motor in the middle of the lever. This test gives us the neck blanks resistance against twisting. Test results: Test1 Object # Deflection (in 1/1000”) 1 178 2 155 3 145 Test 2 Object Deflection 1 70 2 64 3 61 Test 3 Object Deflection 1 644 2 476 3 484 So what conclusions can we make out of this? - A neck reinforced with method #3 will resist bending caused by string pull better than a neck reinforced with method #2 or a neck without reinforcements. This is because the reinforcement goes all the way thru the neck, thus taking on both compression on one side and stretching on the other side. With reinforcements placed like in method #2 they will only compress on the string side. No help against the stretch on the back of the neck. - A neck reinforced with method #3 will withstand sideway pull better than a neck reinforced with method #2 or a neck without reinforcements. That was a little bit of a surprise. I thought that #2 with the more wide spread reinforcements would handle this better. I cannot explain this. - A neck with square rods will withstand twisting better than the other two methods. This is because a square rod per se resists twisting better that a thin strip. Any problems with my test? Of cause! Let me give you a few: - I have not used real tone woods and graphite, but I think that we can use this test as a guidance of what would happen with the real thing. - Only one test blank of every type was made, so all the results can be caused by variations in the particular pieces of wood used. - I could not plan the oak reinforcements all the way down to the thickness that the graphite sheets would have in #3, so I gave them a slightly smaller cross section area compared to the square rods. The relationship between the strips and the rods areas are as close as possible to the relationship between the GR0 and the GR7 that LMII sells. But I think that the test shows us a couple of things: - It is HIGHLY POSSIBLE that reinforcements like #3 helps the neck withstand the string pull and sideway bending BETTER than if method #2 is used. - It is HIGHLY POSSIBLE that reinforcements like #2 helps the neck withstand twisting BETTER than if method #3 are used. But the most important conclusion is this: ANY graphite reinforcement WILL make the neck stronger, regardless of were it is placed in the neck. We all have assumed that this is that case, but I have NEVER seen anybody actually proving it like in this test. Have I contributed with some practical information this time, Wes??? Peter

Mahogany for the body then. You can make it thinner to reduce weight, and possibly also do a chambered construction, althou that will influence the sound, of cause. If you chose the swamp ash body, and keep the string through body bridge, you will still end up with a lot of the twang from a tele. I did a Tele/Strat crossover with a few of your modifications: Thin swamp ash body with belly-cut, arm rest cut and an easy access neck joint. I put in my own T90-style pickups, tree like a strat, so that isn't for metal. It turned out very twang, but with a lot of LP junior puch, thanks to the T90s. Its my favourite guitar right now! Peter

this is not practical....they are placed under the fretboard because that is the most practical way to do it,and it adds just the stiffness needed,no more,no less...it isn't an engine hoist after all,it is a guitar neck I agree, its not practical. That is why we are all in this discussion. We are trying to find out the best possible compromise hmmm...much like the web of a beam?i thought you said that was bogus?just a few posts ago you were arguing that was not "efficient". You're right, it isn't the most efficiant way to place the reinforcement. But it means that you place a lot more reinforing material far away from the centre line of the neck. Compared to rods in the middle of the neck I think the strength will increase more with the laminates. Still, this is all in theory. I'll try to da real experiment and test this. I'll get back about this as soon as I can precent some sientific facts. I'll just have to order some square graphite rods... Edit: I' setting up for the tests right now. I'll report back as soon as I have some results

that is the silliest use of theory i have ever heard just install the rods as reccomended by stewmac and the manufacturers..good grief ←

About the I-beams: The flanges in an I-beam isn't there to stop the beam from twisting. It is the flanges that give the beam the strength. The web is only there to separate the flanges!!! That’s a fact. Try the steel rule experiment with the ruler orientated parallel with the imaginary fret board. Not much support, eh? This shows that the use of square graphite rods embedded in the middle of the neck, example 3 in the pic, actually doesn’t do much to support the neck against the string pull. What it actually does is to help prevent the neck from bending up or down (in playing position)!!! It might also help prevent twisting a little bit. The best way (for me and you, more about that later) to laminate a thin graphite sheet into a neck is between strips of wood and let the sheet go all the way thru the neck (I’m speaking structural strength, not the best look) much like old arch tops some time have thin laminates of ebony running down the centre line of the neck. Actually the ideal way, structurally, to use reinforcement a neck is to glue a thin sheet to the back of the neck and a thin sheet just under the fretboard. Now the neck wood will act as the web in the I-beam, and the reinforcement sheets will act as the flanges. But that would look like crap. That is why company like Modulus cap the entire back of their necks in graphite. Conclusion: To support the neck against string pull, glue graphite sheets between wood laminates. To support the neck from bending/twisting use graphite rods embedded in the neck. Peter

Looks very intresting. And they ship world wide Tell us how it works

I'm building a guitar with mahogany-graphite-laminated neck pretty much the way you describes it thegarehanman. Its three pieces of mahogany and two thin (.020) sheet stock of graphite between. My main objective for using graphite is strength. I had those pieces of mahogany lying around, with great tap tone, but I doubt their structural strength. The graphite is going all the way trough the neck blank and thus can be seen from the back of the neck when I’m finished. I’m not using the bar-type graphite rods. For the joint I did like this: I used a polyurethane glue, brand name DADA LIM PU2116 (probably not a useful information for a lot of you guys, I live in Europe). This glue reacts to moist for it’s curing, much like super glue. It also foams up when curing. This means that if you have a very small imperfection in the glue joint (not that you should have any) the glue expands to take care of this. I prepared the surfaces just like I would if I wasn’t to use the graphite. Then I rubbed the surfaces with a slightly moist rag before gluing everything up. This inserted enough moist to get a good cure in the glue. I haven’t got the guitar far enough to test it under the stress of the strings, but the neck blank is rock solid, the sound is solid (no rattle from poor joints) and the joints look super tight. Note that you have to look elsewhere for such loch graphite pieces that your project requires. The ones sold by LMII is almost to short for a bolt on guitar. Mine is going to be a set-neck. Peter

Sorry, didn't read all thruy the text. BASS TUNERS. Forget about the conversion bushings I posted a link to. Fill and redrill

Mahogany should not be a problem. I have made neck shims that start from 2 mm (less than .090") and tapers to nothing. If you doesn't have a curly piece, you should be fine. Just try to keep it as thick as the slider switch alow for, just to be on the safe side. Most pick guards range from 0.08 to 2.3mm (=.030 to .090" ), and that could be used as a reference. Try to aim for someting like 2.5mm or thicker if the switch have a long lever This shouldn't be much diferent from mounting a strat style switchdirectly in wood, and that is common practise Peter

Check out this: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Tuner_p...r_Bushings.html Coversion bushings from large to small posts. A quick fix if the meashurments are right Peter

I wouldn’t do this. Some years ago (like 15 or so) I had a really cool, red vinyl covered (yes exactly like a speaker cabinet) Höfner Strat rip-off from late 60-s or early 70-s. This guitar was then worth absolute NOTHING. I took off the vinyl covering and finished it with clear lacquer. I later trashed the guitar completely and reused the pickups and the fretboard for another project. The other day I walked into a second hand guitar store and found a guitar much he same but in white. It was now worth more than 6000 Swedish Crowns (=around 750$)!!! So I say: Build a replica body, use the neck, put away all of the pieces you got left and remember were you put them. It might come a day when you, just like me, badly regret what you have done, and would like to reassemble the guitar. It might also be easier to build a solid body instead of what you planning. But if you decide to go ahead with this: Good luck and I hope that you succeed Peter

Don't think that the router would tear up the wood if you: 1 Have a sharp bit 2 Make light passes and 3 Stay away from figured woods. I havn't tried it myself, but I saw a guy that did this on a bass. He soaked the thin wood with low viscosity super glue(after the routing) to reinforce it.

Link to humidity meter: http://www.bercu.com/EN-Gann_compact.htm More of the same kind (main list): http://www.bercu.com/Products%20A-Z-EN.htm The wood should idealy be dried to about 8% but wood up to 12% have been used with success. About the planing and jointing: This can bee done with a simple hand planer, a straith edge and a lot of elow grease Peter

I would recomend a book called " Make your own electric guitar" by Melvin Hiscock, before you go ahead and purchase a lot of expensive wood and hardware. The book goes through a complete design of a custom guitar and Hiscock teaches you a lot about building guitars. The mesaurments you need to know is (among others): fret board with at the nut fret board with at the end bridge hight neck angle body thickness and so on This book covers it all. It also have a list of necesary tools, a section on finishin and setup and so on. Im sure there are other good bocks/Videos/DVDs out there to get ou started, but this is the one I started with and I'm still (after 15 guitars) using it for some references on neck angle, fret board with and so on. Good luck Peter

I agree with westhemann. If you are unsure about the methods suggested, leave it alone. If you deside to try this; I agree with Setch. It looks more like a dent. Thy Setch's method. If it doesn't help have a look at this: http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Te...fboardivot.html Its a bit tricky, but I have tried it with good results. Good luck Peter

It’s very important to get things lined up properly. You should plug all of the holes, and drill new ones for all screws. If you are going to reuse any of the holes, start with the middle two and work your way from there. If you do that you will keep he strings centred over the pickups and the fret board. Peter

Depending on how "deep" the arm rest is, it might be possible to plan a little more, add a thicker top and contour this. The new finish will hide the fact that the top is wedge-shaped in the arm rest area. And you might consider using a chemical stripper. Its hard work to sand away the finish. Good luck Peter

Have a look heretoo. http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=18146 About pickups, but its generaly the same. Good luck Peter

C’mone guys! We all were novices in the beginning. This is for Grape Nut and everybody else that needs to get this straitened out: “The difference between a router, drill and a saw” or “How to make place for a humbucker in my guitar” -A saw cuts straight trough the wood. You cannot start in the middle of a piece of wood and cut a recess with a saw (well you can but I wouldn’t advice doing so…) -A drill is made only for drilling round holes (You were dead right on that one Grape Nut). -A router is like a drill held in a fixture so that the router bit is always held perpendicular to the surface of the wood. The bit (not drill bit, but router bit) is lowered a suitable amount (max 3mm/0,1”) and the fixture is moved across the surface. By doing so wood is removed. The bit is then lowered and more wood is removed in each new pass with the router. Be careful. The router bit will try to wander away from the line that you originally planed it to follow. This can be remedied by taking very light passes, go slow and be careful. The other, possibly more used, method is to use a router bit with some kind of bearing: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Routing_...outer_Bits.html with the bearing running against a template: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Routing_..._Templates.html that has been screwed or taped with double sided tape to the body. This will give you a clean cut out and the pickups will fit well within those cavities. Also be aware of that you need to get the recess quite deep before you can run the bearing against the template. If you start too early you will run the cutting edge of the bit against the template and ruin the template. I assume that you have a strat style guitar with three pickups. In this case you will benefit from also using a template like this: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Routing_..._Templates.html for the cut out in pick guard. Sorry for only referring to StewMac. There are other good suppliers for this material. All this is very fine if you own or can borrow a router or maybe a Dremel-style tool with a router attachment. Personally I wouldn’t use a Dremel for routing out the pickup cavities. In my opinion it’s not strong enough, but if you are careful and make light passes it might work. Just remember to PRACTICE ON SCRAP before. In your position I would consider a more low tech approach, the same I used on my first singlecoil-to-humbucker conversions, before I got my self a bunch of guitarmaking goodies: cut the recess with a couple of sharp chisels and enlarge the existing pickguard cutout with files. A pair of sharp scissors or a good knife can in most pickguards get you a good start before you clean it up with the files. Use some masking tape on the top of the pickguard to stop you from scratching it and to get you a surface to draw the new cutout onto. This is the method I strongly recommend for the beginner. God luck and please tell us how it went. Peter

One thing about Mike Walachs CNC that some of you might not notice: It is x-y CNC, with means that even though it has a motor for moving the dremel up and down, the softvare is for transfering a 2D-picture onto plywood or similar. This is not suitible for carving archtops, necks or similar. I sell komponents for CNCs in my day job, and I know how much more processing power a tru 3D-CNC will need to do the job, compared with a 2D-CNC. To syncronice 3 axis (and thats whats needed to get a smooth 3D shape) requires much more power than an ordinary PC offers. For this you need a profesional motion control system that will cost a fortune (even for me that can get the parts for about 30% of the list price). To get a 3D-CNC to pay for itself you probbly need to make more than 1000 guitars/year. Sorry if I dissapoint you gus, but thats the truth. BTW, Even if I could get my hands on a 3D-CNC for free (nd I have had that oportunity), I wound hesitate to bring it into my shop. I know how much time it takes to program the thing! I would probably be able to hand-carve 10 to 20 tops in the time I had to spend programming the thing, not including the time to correct my errors,, and thats for the first top. New top shape; another hundred hour to program. Sorry to let you guys down, but tru CNCs are for high volume companies. But as someone pointed out. it would probably work well for inlays: Cut the inlays, scan them, transform them inte CAD-files ('cos thats what the softare is using) and rout the fretboard. This means I could have saved a day or two on my latest trea-of-life inlay... Peter

I use a drillpress to press in fretts, and I can only add that I apreciate the ability to turn the fret setter. It actualy makes it easier to position the neck. I do the fine-positioning bu sligthly turning the setter. Much easyer than trying to adjust the neck when using a drillpress.