A Pair Of Gibby Tribute Builds.

[Blackdog]

By the way, and so everyone can understand what we are talking about...

Here's the 24.75" R18 scale on the left, with the properly spaced 24 5/8" scale on the right.

(First column is nut-to-fret spacing, second column is fret-to-fret spacing, in mm)

1 34.9 34.9 35.1 35.1

2 67.9 33.0 68.2 33.1

3 99.1 31.2 99.5 31.3

4 128.5 29.4 129.0 29.5

5 156.3 27.8 156.9 27.9

6 182.5 26.2 183.2 26.3

7 207.3 24.8 208.0 24.8

8 230.7 23.4 231.5 23.4

9 252.8 22.1 253.6 22.1

10 273.7 20.9 274.4 20.9

11 293.4 19.7 294.1 19.7

12 312.0 18.6 312.7 18.6

13 329.6 17.6 330.3 17.6

14 346.2 16.6 346.9 16.6

15 361.9 15.7 362.5 15.6

16 376.7 14.8 377.3 14.8

17 390.7 14.0 391.2 13.9

18 404.0 13.2 404.3 13.1

19 416.4 12.5 416.7 12.4

20 428.2 11.8 428.5 11.7

21 439.4 11.1 439.5 11.1

22 449.9 10.5 450.0 10.4

(Edit: Sorry, I tried to add tabs for easier reading, but did not work... )

Edited July 7, 2011 by Blackdog

[Blackdog]

Update time, installing the truss rods.

These are the "traditional" TR kits from StewMac, which are the closest to the vintage TRs used by Gibson in the late 50s. They come with a normal washer, but I added a half moon washer that they also sell.

These TRs need to be cut to lenght first, the blank nut needs to end up approximately under the 19th fret:

About 12mm of the blank end need to be threaded with a 10-32 cutting die. The blank nut is then screwed in and the portruding end is peened against the blank nut. After a bit of metallurgy it ends like this:

The blank nut hole is drilled at the appropriate location on the neck.

And here's an interesting trick I picked up from the Burst replica thread at TDPRI (Dan Erlewine also promotes this technique): the surface where the half moon washer seats at the headstock end, and the area where the blank nut seats is soaked with water thin CA glue. The end grain mahogany will "drink" it happily, and this reinforces the wood in these compression areas.

The maple filler strips are glued in place, holding the TR against the bottom of the channel, and completely filling the channel at the tenon area of the neck. Here it is important that the strips fit slightly tight and just enough glue is used. We don't want to flood the TR channel with glue.

Once the glue is set, the excess maple strips were trimmed with the band saw and sanded flush with the belt sander, the half moon washer and adjustment nut are installed and voilá: TRs are in place.

Update on the scale lenght.

I will indeed use the 24 3/4", Rule of 18 for the fret spacing for both guitars. We'll see how It works in real life.

This means I have to cut a new template for my FB slotting jig…

I have also redone the plans, as the R18 scale changes the position of the 19th fret a little bit, and this is the neck/body joint on the ES355. In doing this I discovered that I had made a mistake on my previous plan: I positioned the tenon start point (neck/body joint) at the 20th fret instead of the 19th. Then I cut the template using the plan, and I rough-cut the neck blank using the template…. This means that after correcting the mistake I was left with less wood for the heel. Fortunately, the blank was cut with some margin, and the new scale additionally pushes the 19th fret a bit more towards the bridge. I think I will be fine, but it's going to be close.

[Blackdog]

So, tenons….

This was my first attempt at a mortise&tenon Gibson style. This far I managed to survive with full width neck insertions PRS style. So I worked out a method for doing it and attacked the Les Paul neck first, as this is the easier one of the two.

The vintage style tenon of the LP is just the neck getting narrower into a parallel sided tongue, the tenon. The fingerboard gluing surface needs to sit flush with the top in the neck-angle plane area, the fretboard sits directly on top of this surface. So the only tricky parts are the two surfaces at the sides of the tenon that make contact with the body side, as these have to be cut at an angle, but the angle is well known: it's the same as the neck angle cut on the top, i.e. 4.3degrees.

First I rough cut the tenon with the band saw.

Then I rigged this jig to use a straigh router bit to cut the angle and the sides of the tenon. The guide edge on top of the angled aluminum profiles is squared to them, the neck is angled to 4.3 degrees w.r.t. the profiles and fixed down.

One advantage of this rig (doesn't really have many…) is that the second side of the tenon is cut by turning the neck blank around, without touching the setup. This ensures that the tenon (whatever size it has) will remain symmetrical to the centerline of the neck.

That's the theory, but the way I rigged it was wrong and I was flexing the profiles down unevenly. This resulted in a tenon that was not squared in all it's surfaces. The tenon should be 1.5" (38mm) wide but I had to retouch it to get it properly squared and by the time I got it right the width was reduced to 34mm. Not vintage correct, but with the mortise is routed accordingly it should not be a problem at all. I learned something for the next one…

The depth of the tenon should be 1.5" too, the thicknessing jig setup works great for this. Now that I think of it, I could have used the safe-T-planer too…

A bit of sanding and here's the tenon.

You may notice in this last picture that there's no lip on the heel (the bottom of the tenon is flush with the heel). This is how it was done on the originals, the resulting heel-to-body-side angle is less than 90 degrees (85.7 to be exact). In modern reissues Gibson routes a lip on the heel, the tenon is a few mm shallower and the angle of the heel is 90 degrees. Advantages of the CNC…

With the tenon cut and while the sides of the neck are not yet tapered I cut the template for the mortise. Unfortunately I didn't take pictures but will try to describe how i do it.

I draw the centerline on the piece of plywood that will be the template. I clamp the tenon section (and part of the heel) of the neck down on top of the plywood piece I will use for the template, perfectly aligned with the centerline drawn on the plywood. The neck is pretty much hanging in the air, just supported by the clamping on the tenon section against the template-to-be.

For this it is useful that the sides of the neck are not tapered, using a long straight edge I project the sides of the neck towards the template and I can see how well centered the neck is. Once I'm happy with the alignment I tighten the clamp further to get the neck firmly fixed in place.

I take a couple of hardwood strips (with perfectly straight sides) that I keep for this use and place them against the sides of the tenon and clamp them laterally to it in a couple of places. Not too tight but firmly against the sides. Then I screw down these strips to the template plywood with countersunk screws. These strips will guide the router bit bearings for the sides of the mortise template. I add a similar strip of hardwood in between the two others as a stop where I want the mortise to end, and screw it down in a similar fashion. The mortise template needs to be cut a bit longer than the required mortise lenght for a clean guidance of the router bit bearing as it enters and exits the body outline.

At this point the lateral clamps on the strips can be removed, and if they were reasonably tight against the tenon, when the clamp holding down the neck is removed the neck should remain put, held by friction against the hardwood strips.

I then remove the neck and route the cavity in the plywood template guiding the router bit against the hardwood strips.

Then I remove the strips, save them for the next time, and the mortise template is ready. The tenon should fit tightly in the template if it was well done.

The alignment of the template on the body was done by trial and error, I just inserted the neck into the template to aid me with the alignment.

I stuck the template onto the body top with two strips of double sided tape and routed away.

It all went pretty well.

Now, the tenon of the 355 neck will pose a few more challenges…

In principle is the same 1.5"wide and 1.5"deep tongue, but it does have a lip at the heel, as the heel needs to be sanded flush with the back after it is set on the body. So it has to be left deeper than needed. The side cuts of the tenon are also angled, but the angle in question is a bit trickier to determine, as I will try to explain:

The challenge is the top plate part. Whle on the LP the fretboard just sits on the top that is cut to the proper angle, on a 335 it sits higher above and at an angle. The top plate is "pretty much" flat in the neck joint area, so the void under the fretboard, at both sides of the tenon, needs to be filled with mahogany wedges of the proper angle.

Doing the math (and trig): the top where the bridge sits is at it's highest point. There's about 1/2" of spruce bracing under it filling the space between the arching of the top plate and the plane of the centerblock. I need an additional clearance of about 14mm to accomodate the ABR-1 bridge. Other assumptions are a 5.5mm thick fretboard and about 1mm fret height.

If I set the neck so that the fretboard touches the top-plate at the neck-body joint, then the required angle is around 5.5 degrees. I could also make the complete neck sit a bit higher by 1 to 1.5mm and the resulting angle drops slightly below 5 degrees. To get an idea consider the following pics borrowed from the ES-335.net and TDPRI sites, these are the neck joints of a 58, a 59 and a 64 ES335s:

The way current reissues are done is completely different, the tenon is CNCd on the neck so that it is parallel to the center block plane and not the neck plane, and the wedges are integral to the neck wood and not separate pieces. Again, advantages of the CNC. But I will do it the vintage way, and according to my recent experience, there's nothing too precise in the construction of the 335 body, no matter how hard you try.

Considering I do not have the body yet I will have to go for a compromise. I'll cut the angle on the neck's tenon at 5 degrees. When the time comes to set it in to the body i can always play with the overall neck height to achieve the appropriate clearance at the bridge. I think it will end up being reasonably close to what you'd expect from a 59.

[Blackdog]

I mocked-up the parts and took some pictures to better illustrate the process I use for making the mortise templates.

Quoting myself....

I draw the centerline on the piece of plywood that will be the template. I clamp the tenon section (and part of the heel) of the neck down on top of the plywood piece I will use for the template, perfectly aligned with the centerline drawn on the plywood. The neck is pretty much hanging in the air, just supported by the clamping on the tenon section against the template-to-be.

For this it is useful that the sides of the neck are not tapered, using a long straight edge I project the sides of the neck towards the template and I can see how well centered the neck is. Once I'm happy with the alignment I tighten the clamp further to get the neck firmly fixed in place.

I take a couple of hardwood strips (with perfectly straight sides) that I keep for this use and place them against the sides of the tenon and clamp them laterally to it in a couple of places. Not too tight but firmly against the sides.

Then I screw down these strips to the template plywood with countersunk screws. These strips will guide the router bit bearings for the sides of the mortise template. I add a similar strip of hardwood in between the two others as a stop where I want the mortise to end, and screw it down in a similar fashion. The mortise template needs to be cut a bit longer than the required mortise lenght for a clean guidance of the router bit bearing as it enters and exits the body outline.

At this point the lateral clamps on the strips can be removed, and if they were reasonably tight against the tenon, when the clamp holding down the neck is removed the neck should remain put, held by friction against the hardwood strips.

I then remove the neck and route the cavity in the plywood template guiding the router bit against the hardwood strips.

Then I remove the strips, save them for the next time, and the mortise template is ready. The tenon should fit tightly in the template if it was well done.

The alignment of the template on the body was done by trial and error, I just inserted the neck into the template to aid me with the alignment.

I stuck the template onto the body top with two strips of double sided tape and routed away.

I hope it's clearer now.

[Blackdog]

I keep working on the necks, specifically on the LP one.

I want to advance these by removing the excessive wood as much as possible, up to a preliminary carve.

I have a few doubts about this neck blank's stability, and after these operations it will be several weeks before I have the fretboards ready, so it will be plenty of time to see if they move at all.

I have now a template of the fretboard and I used it to taper the sides of the LP neck, which is at this time the most advanced.

I was a bit tired for the front-to-back tapering setup, so I added some wood for the headstock ears instead.

Hopefully today I'll plane the ears flush to the headstock face and back, will thickness the paddle and taper the neck front to back.

[Blackdog]

Like I said I wanted to remove more wood of this neck and let it rest for a few weeks.

Yesterday I planed the headstock face and the back of the paddle.

You can barely make it from the next picture, but the headstock thickness is tapered, it's about 1mm thinner at the end. This is consistent to the headstocks of Gibsons until sometime in the 60s. The exact dimensions vary from one guitar to the next, but the tapering is always there.

I also tapered the neck front-to-back to mostly final dimensions. It will be 0.9" thick at the first fret (including fretboard, not including fret height), increasing to 1" at the 12th.

Finally, with a nice coarse rasp I removed the unnecessary shoulders to eliminate unwanted wood support. I want the wood to be free to move if there are any internal tensions. Right after the wood removal it did not move at all (always a good sign), if it stays like this several weeks from now I will use it, if not I'll recover the TR and start over with another blank.

Today I made the headstock templates, and couldn't resist putting this one to good use...Headstock shaped and pilot holes for the tuners drilled.

Starting to look promising...

Now I need to do a similar treatment to the 355 neck.

[ScottR]

This is an excellent build thread, highly detailed and full of facts and background information and history. Plus your top shelf craftsmanship.

So I'm going to repeat a comment Killemall made to RestorationAD.

You need bigger pictures. Seriously, they don't need to be huge, the size the thumbnails point would be fine. Unless you've got a really good reason for not doing so....

SR

[WezV]

You need bigger pictures.

click on them

[ScottR]

You need bigger pictures.

click on them

Doh!

Why didn't I think of that?

I'm lazy, so I don't click on all of them. It's just a more enjoyable read if you don't have to click on them to see them. Call me spoiled. RAD's threads got better when he went to the bigger pics. Blackdog is an amazing builder, so I want to see it all.

Yeah, I know....click on them.

SR

[pauliemc]

You need bigger pictures.

click on them

COOOOL, you touch them & they get bigger

hmmmm. now why does that excite me so much

Cool thread btw,will be following this one

[RestorationAD]

You need bigger pictures.

click on them

Doh!

Why didn't I think of that?

I'm lazy, so I don't click on all of them. It's just a more enjoyable read if you don't have to click on them to see them. Call me spoiled. RAD's threads got better when he went to the bigger pics. Blackdog is an amazing builder, so I want to see it all.

Yeah, I know....click on them.

SR

I am boycotting these fabulous threads until we get the photos right.

j/k

I had to do the bigger pictures you should too!

Just strip the th_ from the URL. I actually coded up program to do all the work for me... so in one shot I get the blog/forum/website covered (pro photobucket helps). And break them up into groups of 4. No more than 4 per post you know...

[Blackdog]

I am boycotting these fabulous threads until we get the photos right.

j/k

I had to do the bigger pictures you should too!

Just strip the th_ from the URL. I actually coded up program to do all the work for me... so in one shot I get the blog/forum/website covered (pro photobucket helps). And break them up into groups of 4. No more than 4 per post you know...

Reeeeealy ????

Boy, I edited a few of the posts at the beginning, I lack the computational expertise to write code for it. It's a lot of work, and then I re-read your post and realised I have violated the 4-pic rule on most of them. I hope I don't get punished for that !!

Can we negotiate ?? Let's say I put full size pics in the upcoming posts and we leave the older ones as they are. I'd rather spend the time butchering wood than editing posts !!

BTW, thanks for the nice words. I'll try to keep it interesting, I think a lot of the attraction of these "replica" type of builds is in the historic factoids and trivia...

[RestorationAD]

I am boycotting these fabulous threads until we get the photos right.

j/k

I had to do the bigger pictures you should too!

Just strip the th_ from the URL. I actually coded up program to do all the work for me... so in one shot I get the blog/forum/website covered (pro photobucket helps). And break them up into groups of 4. No more than 4 per post you know...

Reeeeealy ????

Boy, I edited a few of the posts at the beginning, I lack the computational expertise to write code for it. It's a lot of work, and then I re-read your post and realised I have violated the 4-pic rule on most of them. I hope I don't get punished for that !!

Can we negotiate ?? Let's say I put full size pics in the upcoming posts and we leave the older ones as they are. I'd rather spend the time butchering wood than editing posts !!

BTW, thanks for the nice words. I'll try to keep it interesting, I think a lot of the attraction of these "replica" type of builds is in the historic factoids and trivia...

I am good with moving forward with larger pictures (not that I minded in the first place ).

As for the 4 per post... Well I think we are going to send Wes to your house to straighten you out... (that is scary). And if that doesn't work "we" might get a "torch wielding mob" together.

Love the threads and the work in them! Keep up the posting as it is appreciated.

[Menapia]

Great thread Blackdog this ones got my full attention, plus lots of pic hummer I specially like pauliemc's comment (you touch them & they get bigger )

[Blackdog]

Thanks guys. I'm happy you're having fun with this thread. Ready for an update ?

(well, it's going to be more than one post, too many pictures... )

I advanced the 355 neck quite a bit. I want to leave it in the same pre-carved status as the other one before going on holidays in August.

Rough cut the tenon with the band saw.

The thicknessing jig was already set up the front-back taper, so I did that first.

Then rigged it for the angle cut of the tenon side.

Turned the neck around for the other side.

[Blackdog]

Like this:

Then I cut the bottom of the tenon, following the same 5 degree angle.

[Blackdog]

Using the fretboard template, I tapered the sides of the neck.

And glued the ears to the headstock.

And that was all for yesterday.

[Blackdog]

Today I sanded the headstock flat, front and back.

Again, hard to tell from the picture, but the thickness is tapered. It's 1.4 mm thinner towards the headstock end.

And that's all I did on the ES355 neck for now.

[Blackdog]

But decided that it was time to bind the Les Paul body.

I have researched through many LP replica build threads and I've seen many complex contraptions for routing the binding channel.

The problem is that the binding needs to follow the top with even thickness, The top edge is in a plane for mostly all the outline, but gets thicker in the cutaway.

Instead of using any of these complicated jigs that involve mounting the router on an elevated platform that "follows" the top height, I decided to use the method employed by the operators of the Gibson Memphis factory on the ES335 line.

It's a lot simpler, the binding routing bit is mounted on a table router (mine is entirely improvised, using a plunge router, but gets the job done), and a doughnut around the bit to have a positive contact point at the appropriate height.

In this setup The body top sits on the table and the edge is seated on top of the doughnut. The whole thing is based on the assumption that the height of the doughnut is the same as the height of the top at it's highest point against the top edge.

I made the jig for the ES335, the belly is around 14mm high and so is the doughnut. The Les Paul's belly is a bit shallower: 12mm. So I just put a piece of veneer on the highest part of the top and a piece of mylar to allow the guitar to glide freely on the table.

This is how it works:

And this is the channel already cut.

[Blackdog]

Before gluing the binding I pre-form it a bit with a heat gun.

[Blackdog]

The glue I use is plain acetone, and some binding shavings dissolved in acetone.

Glued the binding in place, being pre-formed reduces the spring back quite a bit and it can be held in place with this extra strong tape.

I let it set for a few hours. So in the meantime I prepared a dummy fretboard that I will use as a template for my slotting jig. This one will have the 24.75" scale, Rule of 18 spacing.

[Blackdog]

The binding was scraped, the sides of the body sanded. Now I could finalize the carve of the top, specially the recurve to flow nicely towards the edges.

The binding in the cutaway follows the top, making just visible a bit of the maple/mahogany lamination.

Body is bound and ready for routing the pickup cavities.

There you are. Big pictures and no more than 4 per post. Happy now ?

And that was all for today. How many post have been ?

Only 8 !!

[ScottR]

There you are. Big pictures and no more than 4 per post. Happy now ?

Yes indeed, thank you very much.

When routing the binding channel, was it difficult to stay on top of that cone shaped platform around the bit?

SR

[Blackdog]

There you are. Big pictures and no more than 4 per post. Happy now ?

Yes indeed, thank you very much.

When routing the binding channel, was it difficult to stay on top of that cone shaped platform around the bit?

SR

Hi Scott,

As a matter of fact it's pretty easy. And foolproof: If you slide off the doughnut it does not cut at all. If your top is not properly seated on the doughnut it will cut a shallower channel, a second pass properly seated cleans the problem.

To have an idea have a look at this video from the Memphis factory. I do it a lot slower, mind you...

[Blackdog]

A 1954 ES355 ?

We all know that Marvin Berry, of Starlighters fame, was playing an ES345 back in 1955 (and through a Tweed Bassman with built-in reverb, no less). This was all well documented in Robert Zemeckis' excellent research piece "Back to the Future"…

But there are rumours that a time machine could have been involved in those events...

What really got me thinking was a fleeting glimpse I caught in the YouTube Memphis Factory tour video… At the beginning they go down a corridor with hanging examples of that factory's production, and the very last guitar in the row is kinda interesting… (follow the link below and quickly hit pause)

What would have happened if the ES355 had been introduced 5 years earlier ? Being an upscale instrument it would have been the semihollow cousin to the Black Beauty of the time. Exactly what can be seen in the video: An

It really got me thinking, I already have a several dual humbucker guitars (even a good ES335 just rebuilt) maybe that '54 ES355 is something that SHOULD be built….

It goes against the original idea of a replica 1959 ES355TD, but I'm already building a 1956 Burst, so…

I'm obviously still on the fence on this one, there's plenty of time (until the PU cavities are routed on the top).

But what do you guys think ?