Stealing

[Bounty Hunter]

I don't know if this has been covered, or why it should have to be for that matter, but the issue of hotlinking keeps coming up in various posts. It seems pretty obvious to me that it is (according to US law anyway) illegal - unless you have permission to use the image/text. If someone else created the picture/text, they hold the copyright. It does NOT have to be registered.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

As far as bandwidth stealing itself goes, at the very least it is unethical. You are making someone else pay for something that you are unjustly using. It is no different than your neighbor hooking up to your power or water without permission.

[Scott Rosenberger]

Good Info, It should be required reading for the Hard Heads who still don't get it

[asm]

good grief has it really come to that..... what they are talking about mainly is people stealing images and saying its theirs (such as companies and people that sell stock photos like corbis.com) they do NOT give a crap about projectguitar.com linking to some 15yr old kids washburn acoustic he got for his birthday. thats like saying the FBI is cracking down on jaywalkers this afternoon.

your blowing it WAY out of proportion man. of all the years ive been active on HUGE message boards, this is the first ive ever seen of copyright photos. its just redicilous.

[Brian]

Actually according to the law the way it stands even without it being stated on or near the image, once an image is uploaded to a server for public display it has an automatic copyright.

[Kevan]

ASM- you're right. They should crack down on simple spelling errors first. You'd think that will all this time, and all this text, that people would have better spelling and grammar skills.

You'd think.....

Bottom Line: Theft is theft, no matter if it's $1 or $1 million.

[asm]

sorry, i dont turn to projectguitar.com to capitalize on my spelling and grammar skills. i keep forgetting this is a mini-version of school, and its very VITAL that if you type something at 4AM it must be perfect, or 30 yr old people will make fun of you.

so sorry.

[Scott Rosenberger]

ASM, Why don't you go back to the playground where you came from and Bully some children your own age. You're not going to win this argument. You're WRONG! Plain and simple, get it through your thick head

[darren wilson]

The people who understand that hotlinking is wrong have now taken to ripping the images off the original sites and uploading to their picture host without credit attributed to the original source. This is still wrong.

Copyright law says that you may not reproduce copyrighted work without permission. Uploading a copy of someone else's photos to your own server for public display without permission is illegal, no question about it. What's more, you're also taking attention away from some smaller and less recognizable luthiers by not attributing the original source of the image, so you're in the wrong on legal and ethical grounds.

The size of the crime doesn't matter. You can go to jail for stealing a 25¢ piece of candy. Somebody, somewhere, does care.

[bluespresence]

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.

Answer this:

If you worked hard making, producing, writing or recording ANYTHING and posted it in the web would you want someone else to steal it?

It's very simple for most of us to answer so we respect the rights and copyrights of others. Get with the program, grow up and quit arguing about the same subject over and over and over.

If you don't like it here then pack up your keyboard and LEAVE!!!!!!

Other than that......Have a nice day!

[RGGR]

If you worked hard making, producing, writing or recording ANYTHING and posted it in the web would you want someone else to steal it?

So don't post it.

In the current digital time all new software, cd's, dvds, movies, etc...will be avialable to the public for free within seconds of release........

We may not like it, we may bitch about it........but it's a simple fact of life.

Get over it and start building some more great guitars.

[LukeR]

Another point is the international nature of the internet. Now, I am almost finished my 3rd year of Law school in Brisbane, Australia, and I chose the elective 'Internet Law' last semester.

Its all fairly complicated- its not hard to know WHAT the law is in regard to actions on the internet, but rather WHAT law is actually relevant. (eg, you may be in the US, your site may exist on a server in Poland, and you defame someone in Australia). Which law is applcable? Well, the Australian perspective is that publication occurs where and when it is downloaded (so if I [in the US]

defamed you on this forum, and you download and read it on your computer in Brisbane, Australia, then publication occured in Australia. Therefore, you could sue me.

However, in order for you to sue me (its a civil area of law), I would have to come to australia- its a civil order, so there is no deportation, etc.

Even if I sent legal reperesentatives to Australia to fight the case for me and stayed at home, you could not enforce the courts desision- I am not subect (in a practical sence) to Australian law (theoretically yes, but in real life...)

Of course, you could lodge an application for a US court to enforce the desision that the Australian court has made (there are various international treaties on the subject), however, due to the 'freedom of speach' thing you have in the states, defamation is ALOT harder to get relief for. So basically, you wouldnt have any chance of actually getting the remedy you sought.

So you spend a hellva lot of money in court, win the case, cant enforce the judgement, and then are left with a HUGE debt.

Also, copyright is different in different places. In the US, dont you have to register copyright? In Australia, you are automatically granted copyright in any material work(s) you make (you dont have to put the © symbol at the end- that goes to assesing quantum of damages). So that is different

Another big problem is databases. In the US, you dont have copyright in databases of compiled facts (like the yellow pages). In Australia, we do- so there is another issue.

Interesting things (or at least I thinks so)

Kind regards,

Luke

[Scott Rosenberger]

That's even more good reading. Isn't Intelligent writing/conversation better than reading a 12 year olds Temper Tantrum?

[Jimm]

sorry, i dont turn to projectguitar.com to capitalize on my spelling and grammar skills.

No need to state the obvious.

i keep forgetting

Again, no need to state the obvious.

this is a mini-version of school, and its very VITAL that if you type something at 4AM it must be perfect, or 30 yr old people will make fun of you.

so sorry.

Now...that's not true. 5 year olds are making just as much fun of you as the 30 year olds. Edited September 21, 2004 by Jimm

[asm]

nice way to chop up a reply and make it look like your smart jimm, real mature.

seems like this forum have turned into a bunch of political, treehugging hippies who care more about the background of a picture and where it came from, than just looking at the damn thing. good grief ive never seen so many people make rules and try to bring LAWS into PICTURES posted on a HALF RATE GUITAR FORUM.

seriously, you people need to bring the paranoid level down about 300% and stop thinking the fbi is gonna break down your door if you posted a picture of John Doe's Gibson he got from his aunt on his 14th birthday.

[asm]

Edited September 21, 2004 by asm

[bluespresence]

RGGR Posted on Sep 21 2004, 08:09 AM

  QUOTE 

So don't post it.

In the current digital time all new software, cd's, dvds, movies, etc...will be avialable to the public for free within seconds of release........

We may not like it, we may bitch about it........but it's a simple fact of life.

Get over it and start building some more great guitars.

I AM building, restoring, collecting and selling guitars. I am also sick of getting on here and listening to people whine about the "terrible rules" on this forum. I am not sure if you read my post correctly or not but I am NOT the one whining here. I hope that's not what you are implying. If you are then oh, well, I'm over it because I am not going to let the whiners bring down a great forum. Eventually they'll get sick of whining and go away and leave the rest of us that ARE interested in building and restoring alone.

asm Posted on Sep 21 2004, 10:31 AM

  nice way to chop up a reply and make it look like your smart jimm, real mature.

seems like this forum have turned into a bunch of political, treehugging hippies who care more about the background of a picture and where it came from, than just looking at the damn thing. good grief ive never seen so many people make rules and try to bring LAWS into PICTURES posted on a HALF RATE GUITAR FORUM.

seriously, you people need to bring the paranoid level down about 300% and stop thinking the fbi is gonna break down your door if you posted a picture of John Doe's Gibson he got from his aunt on his 14th birthday. 

This has nothing to do with "political, tree hugging hippies" or the "fbi breaking down your door"....It has everything to do with RESPECT. Respect for someone else's hard work, respect for their right to post a pic on their web site and respect for their decision where it should be posted.

As for being a "half rate guitar forum" as you said.....If you don't like it then erase it from your favorites and don't keep coming back to complain. It takes only a few seconds to go away and will save those of us that want to stay a lot of headaches.

[asm]

respect?

gibson inc. doesnt take any pictures. they hire freelance photographers and then the photographers are NOT allowed to put their website address or name on the picture, then gibson buys it for a few measely bucks. sounds like thats where you should be pointing your "respect" view at. they are the ones getting screwed over, and they have no input. gibson could give two shats less if you post a pic of a 54' re-issue. if anything, that probably helps them, cause if they loose .02$ of their monthly 500$ hosting billl is lost due to 'hotlinking', then if someone sees it, and goes out and buys the damn 4000$ guitar. they probably welcome you to throw their pics around. what they dont want however is someone taking their pic and then putting "KlingoN Kustom Guitars" on it and saying that i made it, THAT is copyright stuff right there.

Edited September 21, 2004 by asm

[Jimm]

Nice self-portrait.

And, for what it's worth, I'm sure that the owners of this "half-rate" website will NOT loose any sleep over your departure.

And it's "Hot-linking pics IS not allowed" you 4th grade dropout.

[asm]

nice blue text and bold words there sweety cakes. if i didnt allredy know you were fruity, this would sure be the final clue.

Edited September 21, 2004 by asm

[Gnome]

My, what a can of worms this picture posting has opened up.

Firstly there are a few scenarios here that need to be clarified, and I'm not sure they have been yet:

1) Hot-linking pictures from the guitar makers site:

issue a): bandwidth 'stealing' from original guitar maker

issue b ): load time for project guitar browsers on 56k phone lines.

2) Posting a URL to original guitar makers pictures through a text url link.

issue a) still taking bandwidth should a PG browser click the link

issue b ) non-issue ... only text link is loaded, instead of image.

3) Hot-linking to ones own work on ones own website/free host

issue a) non-issue, person who posted the hotlink pays for bandwidth

issue b ) load time still a problem for PG browser on 56k line

4) Posting a url to ones OWN work on ones OWN website/free host

issue a) non-issue, person who posted the hotlink pays for bandwidth

issue b ) non-issue 56ker's have a choice of which link to click and which to not click

Judging by the various points that have been brought up, its seems like scenario 4) is the only acceptable solution. In all the other scenarios you're either taking bandwidth or swamping a topic with images that a 56ker has no chance of loading in a reasonable amount of time.

Let's do some math regarding hotlinking or test url linking to another site.

I have a domain hosted through register.com. its $19.95/month. I get 9Gb of bandwidth. Let's say the average sized pic i'm serving out is 100k. In order for all of my bandwidth to be consumed I would have to serve out 90,000 pics in one month. Is it possible that even 1/10 of my bandwidth could be taken by PG linking and hotlinking? maybe? Is it a problem for a site owner come bill time? maybe.

In my opinion there is little, if any difference from a 'bandwidth stealing' point of view between hotlinking and normal linking. With regard to bandwidth usage, it's the damn same thing. A simple right click on an image tells you all you need to know about where it came from. Also, I don't know about you guys but when I see a url ending in .jpg, I click it. There is still a 'serving' of a picture from an owners site through a "path" not normally used. i.e. the image wasn't found using the traditional: visit to the makers home page; then a click to the gallery page; and a click on an image in on a gallery page.

Arguments can be made for and against this kind of linking. Of course theres the fact that some obscure maker's work could all of a sudden be exposed to people all across the country and globe. Could it drum up some business? maybe and possibly. I think any guitar maker would consider this as free advertising, even if a chunk of bandwidth is taken. I certainly would. Then there's the ego boost and respect issue associated with someone actually taking time to post a link to an image on your website work because they liked it so much.

Then there's the ridiculous argument that an image should be copied from an originators website and then hosted somewhere else in order to save the originator his bandwidth. This seems just plain silly. As soon as that image ends up on another server, the 'link' between guitar and maker is suddenly blurred and you've got a moral and legal issue on your hands. Unless the name on the headstock can be plainly seen, someone looking at the image isnt going to have a snowballs chance in hell of determining a maker. This just shouldn't be done unless permission has been granted.

The bottom line: Hotlinking shouldn't be done for the benefit of 56k people out there. And due to bandwidth issues ... (that are still and wont be tangible unless someone actually takes some statistics from one of the more-viewed threads on PG in order to determine just how much bandwidth is getting taken unknowingly from a site)

anyway just trying to stick my nose in here, make a couple points, and try to clarify the situation.

[bluespresence]

asm Posted on Sep 21 2004, 11:00 AM

  respect?

gibson inc. doesnt take any pictures. they hire freelance photographers and then the photographers are NOT allowed to put their website address or name on the picture, then gibson buys it for a few measely bucks.

OK, read your OWN POST. Gibson PAYS photographers to take pics of Gibson guitars (I may be wrong but doesn't Gibson own Gibson and the guitars they produce ), then PAYS for the pics..........The rate the photographer is paid is totally up to him if he is freelance as you state. If they don't pay enough to cover his time, expenses and overhead then he shouldn't take the job. If he does then it's not Gibson's fault because he worked and lost money.

Sounds like a definition of a freelance photographer to me. Once Gibson pays him/her for the job and the pics they become Gibson's property and he then gives up all rights to those pictures. In fact this is probably worked out ahead of time in a funny little thing called a contract. I don't program someone elses PLC for free, I get paid to do it and they still own the PLC, the program (I wrote) and the machine it runs. They are free to run it as they wish. Pretty simple stuff. If they don't offer me enough to cover my expenses I reject the offer and move on to a job that will pay my bills.

Maybe it's time you moved on........

[asm]

about the hotlinking cost, gibson is a major coproration, do you know how many millions they are worth? plenty. do you think the ceo of the company cares about projectguitar.com's 20 members hotlinking their pics for THEIR benefit to get their products out to potential buyers? well, walk up to him on the street and see if he doesnt laugh in your face.

think about how many page views they get a day, and what percentage of a sliver that hotlinking is being used from them. if you think about it, its not even worth discussing.

and if it was of concern they would have employed something like Geocities, (or the other free hosting site) that doesnt allow you to use hotlinked images. hmmm... if they are loosing "so much money" to us evil people posting their pictures of guitars that cost more than i could ever imagine then why didnt they use this method? maybe cause they dont care, and they have better things to worry about, and guess what, so should you.

[asm]

Jimm my friend, upon further inspection, i did a search for your user name. and the search proved my theory that you have been here for a few YEARS, have 36 post, and none of those post actually have you telling someone any advice, comments, or any work YOU have done..

sooooo.... this leads me to believe your a poser, and you just talk alot of BS. lets see some of the stuff youve done, you ARE on a guitar building site right? well what are you here to do then? build and share advice or talk BS? cause as of now i havent seen anything you have ever done that is worth anything. actually, i vote for Jimm to be banned, its called Trolling, and he is doing nothing but making low blow remarks and not helping the "community" as he calls it, at all. at least i have a few hundred post of giving advice and making new intresting post.

[rhoads56]

wow.

Please hotlink any photos from my website into any guitar forum you like. I do not care about the bandwidth, as it generates interest in my products. Thankyou.

[bluespresence]

asm Posted on Sep 21 2004, 11:26 AM

hmmm... if they are loosing "so much money" to us evil people posting their pictures of guitars that cost more than i could ever imagine then why didnt they use this method? maybe cause they dont care, and they have better things to worry about, and guess what, so should you.

I don't recall making any comment about anyone losing any money from hotlinking. Maybe you can refresh my memory.

It's not a matter of Gibson or anyone else caring, it's a matter of respect for others property and rights as I stated before. Obviously you have no respect for anyone here as you continually bash the members, the forum and the mods. I'm guessing you don't even have respect for yourself. That's where it all starts. Learn to respect yourself and you CAN learn to respect others.