Baritone Guitar Project - Which Tone Wood?

[Argali]

Hello all. A friend and I are about to embark upon the mystical journey of building baritone Tele Customs using mostly Warmoth parts.

To begin with, I wanted to talk to some experienced project builders here and ask for your recommendations on body woods. We're looking to construct a guitar for "heavy" forms of music (think Isis/Neurosis/Jesu), and therefore I'm looking for a body wood that will best suit this style. Mahogany has served me well on my Les Paul Custom. but Warmoth presents other interesting options, like walnut, rosewood and padouk.

So, regale me with suggestions and advice! I plan to ask a lot of questions as we construct these guitars piece-by-piece.

[darren wilson]

I've heard really good things about Swamp Ash for getting great clarity and 'openness' in the lower registers.

[Argali]

I've heard really good things about Swamp Ash for getting great clarity and 'openness' in the lower registers.

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Swamp Ash is generally a bright wood though, correct? I've wondered about using a brighter wood to compensate for the heavy strings/low tuning that we will use (we're going toshoot for A-to-A tuning), but I'm not exactly sure this will be the best approach. I've read many reviews of people complaining that maple and swamp ash are excessively bright.

[darren wilson]

The problem is if you go for a "warm" sounding wood, you run the risk of losing articulation and clarity on the low notes. Alder and Swamp Ash are definitely bright-sounding woods for standard tuning, but when you drop down to B or A, that brightness turns into a well-articulated growl.

[Argali]

The problem is if you go for a "warm" sounding wood, you run the risk of losing articulation and clarity on the low notes. Alder and Swamp Ash are definitely bright-sounding woods for standard tuning, but when you drop down to B or A, that brightness turns into a well-articulated growl.

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Hmmm. You make a good point. However it seems that baritones made of swamp ash and alder are rare, no?

[darren wilson]

http://www.fender.com/products/show.php?partno=0259400

http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i-JAC-2900102-503.html

http://www.chandlerguitars.com/baritone.html

[Argali]

http://www.fender.com/products/show.php?partno=0259400

http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i-JAC-2900102-503.html

http://www.chandlerguitars.com/baritone.html

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Arguably, alder was used in all three guitars to reduce their total cost. I'm sure that was the case with the Jackson.

[crafty]

Yeah, and Ibanez uses Basswood to reduce their overall costs too. So what?

Alder is a good wood for any guitar, whether it be a bass, a bari, or a regular ol' 6 string. It is a brighter wood than mahoghany, but somewhat less bright than maple or swamp ash. If you want to spend the money on walnut, rosewood and padouk, go for it. But walnut is not as good of a tone wood as alder, and while rosewood is probably the best tone wood in the world, it is very expensive, difficult to work with, and can be a bit bright.

So it comes down to what you want to spend and what kind of finish you're going to put on the guitar. Alder isn't exactly a presentation grade wood, and it would be a crime to paint a $400 Warmoth rosewood body.

[Argali]

Yeah, and Ibanez uses Basswood to reduce their overall costs too. So what?

Alder is a good wood for any guitar, whether it be a bass, a bari, or a regular ol' 6 string. It is a brighter wood than mahoghany, but somewhat less bright than maple or swamp ash. If you want to spend the money on walnut, rosewood and padouk, go for it. But walnut is not as good of a tone wood as alder, and while rosewood is probably the best tone wood in the world, it is very expensive, difficult to work with, and can be a bit bright.

So it comes down to what you want to spend and what kind of finish you're going to put on the guitar. Alder isn't exactly a presentation grade wood, and it would be a crime to paint a $400 Warmoth rosewood body.

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Looking at baritone guitars currently on the market as a comparison point are tricky. I'm building a custom guitar where money is really not an object (I intend to spend quite a bit of time putting this together). Mass-market guitars are often built with less-than-ideal tone woods as a way to keep cost down. I know - I have an Ibanez basswood guitar. This isn't really a bad thing, but I want the best tone I can get.

I don't mind spending the money on a more expensive body wood. It may be that alder is a good choice - turns out a model of the Nevborn 8-string guitars made for Meshuggah has an alder body. Warmoth describes padouk to be close to maple tonally, so that while the wood is beautiful, it may not be the right choice.

Rosewood is a very intriguign possibility. I've read that it can be heavier than mahogany. Why is it difficult to work with? And if I did get a rosewood body, I obviously wouldn't paint it. I'd want some kind of finish that would let the beauty of the wood show.

[darren wilson]

Expensive wood doesn't necessarily make it sound better. It usually just means it's rare, endangered, or has to be shipped halfway around the world. If you want to go exotic, go for it, by all means, but don't buy expensive wood thinking it's necessarily going to give you better tone.

There are exotic variations of a lot of "common" woods. Ash is available in figured varieties, and there's a stunning Japanese variety called tamo that's quite incredible to look at... dunno how it sounds, but if it's in the same family, it's probably close to some kind of Ash sound.

Rosewood is difficult to work because it's so dense. It's a very, very hard wood, and also very heavy.

Another wood i think would be good for downtuning is black walnut. You see it used on a lot of exotic basses, but it isn't as popular on guitars for some reason. There are also some beautiful burled or flamed walnut varieties. (such as Claro walnut, which is native to southern California)

[crafty]

There are many different species of rosewood out there, but it's difficult to work with in that it's a much harder wood than mahoghany and is tougher to sand out. But it is *the* most musical wood out there, besides spruce. The most sought-after woodwinds and marimbas are made of rosewood. It's rare, pricey, tough to work with, beautiful to see and hear all at the same time. Keep in mind even Warmoth bodies need final sanding and sometimes some modifications to fit everything properly.

Koa, zebrawood, and ebony will also look very nice and give you a similar resonant, snappy instrument, but may cost more and be more difficult to work with.

If money is no object, there is no substitute. However, strength wise, you may want to consider using maple either for the whole neck or laminating the neck with maple strips.

If you were painting the guitar, I would go with alder, non-figured maple, or mahoghany.

[erikbojerik]

In all this, keep your "rosewoods" straight...there are many kinds of rosewood.

[Meegs666]

george harrison had a rosewood tele that he played only a few times. he said that it was beyond heavy. i wouldnt go as far as saying rosewood is the most musical wood as woods carry different frequencies and some of the rosewoods actually do suck at carrying tone. usually people combine woods to balance out what one wood lacks or has too much of. usually the exotic bodies are bought buy stupid old men who play their guitars once a week and use them more as collecting then actually playing. these are also the guys who will pay for a 3000$ prs that doesnt even come in gold hardware or have binding. exotic=pretty. if money is a factor then there are always cost effective ways to get that great tone you want, whether it be using a top or just different pickups.

[MzI]

Id go with something heavy and bright like maple, i have one guitar thats solid maple with a rosewood board, its the only guitar I have that retains clarity when I down tune, even though it may seem like itll be too bright and lacking some low end its definetly not, it has great chunk

MzI

[!!METAL MATT!!]

Id go with something heavy and bright like maple, i have one guitar thats solid maple with a rosewood board, its the only guitar I have that retains clarity when I down tune, even though it may seem like itll be too bright and lacking some low end its definetly not, it has great chunk

I agree with that I realy Think that maple is the best way to go for that bright sound that's just great for any heavy stuff and I've found that maple and purpleheart sound great together and I use alot of purpleheart I mean alot I just love the way It sound's with 7-string I find it's great for my Death Metal but It still has a great softer sound at the same time!

!!METAL MATT!!

[sepultura999]

he wants something that carries the lows well, i don't think he wants bright. One guitar you should look at for A-A tunning is the MM5 by OLP - very affodable. I tried it through a fender deville and it sounded good though the neck was so thick. Alder is a good choice I find. The Epiphone Goth LP was the darkest sounding guitar I've tried - mahogony with an alder top, mahogony neck, and rosewood fretboard (it's not ebony like the site says). I even drop tunned it to C#-C# and it carried the lows really well. Hope this helps in some way.

-Jamie

[eddiewarlock]

mahogany neck, mahogany body, ebony fretboard, period

[darren wilson]

I guess it all depends on what kind of sound you're going for. Mike Mushok's signature Ibanez model is almost all mahogany, but his tone tends to be on the darker side.

Personally, i'd rather go for wood that has a more "open" and "airy" sound with balanced tonal response and even string dynamics, and if i want a darker sound, i can roll off some of the highs. It's easier to take away sound than it is to try and dial it back in if it's missing.

[rhoads56]

usually the exotic bodies are bought buy stupid old men who play their guitars once a week and use them more as collecting then actually playing. these are also the guys who will pay for a 3000$ prs that doesnt even come in gold hardware or have binding. exotic=pretty.

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Ummm, whats your point??? What is the sound difference for gold hardware, what iis gold platings effect on the "tone". How does binding add to the tone? Is white binding brighter than black binding??

You know, i make custom guitars for a living, ive never made the same guitar twice.... not even CLOSE to being simular. These guys specify EVERYTHING to their preference. I'd do one guitar with gold hardware, for every ten with chrome. Some people (most people buying) just dont like it.

[Meegs666]

im just saying, if you buy a stock prs your not getting a custom guitar youre getting the closest thing they can get to please buyers. you dont get a choice. i have binding on one of my guitars and it has saved the edges from getting knicked from many a fix in the past, including a weird incident with a sword. if you buy a custom guitar youre getting a choice which means if you want a real animal skull in the back with a plexiglass window and light up toilet seats for inlays then you will get it if you pay for it. plus most real players dont want to take a 4000$+ guitar on tour or even practice on it. what is the point in having something that youre afraid to actually play?

[RGGR]

But walnut is not as good of a tone wood as alder, and while rosewood is probably the best tone wood in the world, it is very expensive, difficult to work with, and can be a bit bright.

Funny that some one states something like this. "Walnut is not as good of a tone wood as alder". Hmmmm?!......

The little knowledge I have picked up over the last few months considering tone wood....is that what tone wood is right for a specific guitar all depends on what you want to get out of that guitar.

Because Fender uses Alder alot, or Ibanez uses Basswood....doesn't necessarily mean those are the best tone woods.......their cheap, easy availabe, and above all easy to work with.......something important when CNC-ing out bodies by the hundereds......

If you're going for custom instrument.... why not experiment a little. Why not do something the big boys aren't doing.......What about Koa (or Autralian Blackwood), Walnut, Limba (korina), Bubinga, etc.....or nice combo of woods.....

Did the guy who stated that Alder is best tone wood b.s. actually hear a Walnut 7 string??? Me neither.........but I would love to hear it........Also would love to hear someone actually building one and telling us how incredible it is.....

Why always go where others has gone before........Alder is great tone wood don't get me wrong.........but it's just Alder........it wouldn't make my head snap.

[crafty]

First of all, I never said that Alder was the best tone wood in the world. I said that it was a better tonewood than Walnut.

Here's my reasoning and you really don't have to take it to heart. Just look at my sig. Figured woods like burled walnut and flamed/quilted/spalted maple are nice to look at. They also have very nice sonic qualities. However, those nice burls, knots, and flames are all imperfections in the actual structure of the wood. Those are what we call dead spots. This is very important on the neck of an instrument, but not neccesarily on the body of the guitar, unless it's some sort of acoustic guitar.

Here's why I tend to claim that spruce and rosewood are the best tonewoods in the world: they are. Look at every high-end musical instrument, besides guitars, and look at what they're made of in terms of wood. Rosewood. High-end marimbas and most wooden woodwinds are in fact rosewood. Classical stringed instruments have either used spruce or cedar for the tops and rosewood or maple for the sides and back. Low-end instruments tend to use mahogany for much of their construction.

Why do they do this? Look at the structure of the wood. The grain in rosewood and spruce is mostly straight which allows sound waves to move cleanly throughout the body of the instrument. The density of the wood also makes a difference. Spruce isn't a very dense wood, so it's well suited for acoustic instrument tops and piano soundboards. Rosewood IS very dense which means it's very well suited for instruments like woodwinds, percussion, and solid body instruments.

If I had unlimited funds, I would build a solid-body electric out of rosewood. It allows for the widest range of musical voices and anything you don't want you can eliminate with the amp settings. Tonewood choice and selection is far from BS. I appreciate the beautiful walnut and maple instruments just like everyone else, but I do recognize that beyond the pretty face they're just not the most musical woods you can buy.

[Meegs666]

i agree wholeheartedly on rosewoods being the most musical of woods. maybe not for a solidbody electric guitar, but instruments as a whole. only on grounds that someone builds a guitar entirely out of rosewood and lets me play will i extend my opinion to the world of guitars. but here is why i agree that some rosewoods are the ultimate known tonewood for classical instruments:

we all have to remember that for most of us money and weight are an issue as a guitar body takes a large amount of wood. rosewoods are one the best woods to make an instrument out of as it has a nice solid grain to it and carries better frequencies with less wavering. i just got finished taking a music history class at the university of memphis over the summer and they took a while to describe woods as they pertain to the historical construction of ideophones and woodwinds. rosewood is most common in small woodwinds because it is more cost effective to have such a wood in smaller portions and it carries the frequencies of higher ranged instruments better than most other woods that you couldve found in the era and known world. ideophones are a different case as it isnt as cost effective to have a dalbergia because the keys can be anywhere from 5 inches to a foot long but it has been done before and worked. over the past centuries you see less rosewood and more cost effective materials in such instruments, tuned ideophones now even have keys made of fiberglass as it can be wound tighter. the solidbody guitar is one such instruemnt. its just not cost effective to yield enough rosewood to make entire body blanks. classical guitars can because the wood is thinner and not entire chunks are needed. there are woods that are cheaper and produce similar and sometimes better qualities than dalbergias and some would even say they look a whole lot better, who am i kidding flamed maple looks amazing. just remember we all are partial to different sounds. some prefer the sound of a mahogany body that produces nice muddy lows and some would prefer the sound of an entire maple body as it is tighter and has a nice high end as well as a nice crisp low end.

now im not saying that rosewood is the best bet for a solidbody electric guitar and i dont want to fuel an already sparked fire and arguement. all im saying is rosewood has proven to be a good tonewood for instruments in the past who knows how long. just remember we dont all hear the same thing out of our guitars. i prefer the old mahogany with a maple cap. its cost effective and it sounds great. i also love the sound of walnut as a top wood. i played a carvin semi acoustic with a walnut top and the sound was amazing. i guess its just all in your ears. i have a basswood jem that i love. its just good to create the sound that im after. its just one arguement that im not willing to be a part of because there is a difference between my tastes and someone elses tastes in guitar woods. there is just a point where we have to look past the guitar and into history. rosewood has stood the test of time as it comes to instrument woods. it has affected the world of guitars if only as back and side portions and fretboards.

in my most humble of opinions i would listen to the most widely accepted descriptions of what different woods sound like and consider the cost and choose by what meets your own needs for the instrument. im not an expert on woods so im still searching for exactly what i need in a guitar. it just all comes down to what you need out of the guitar and how much your willing to spend.

Edited January 17, 2005 by Meegs666

[Argali]

Wonderful posts so far guys, very helpful.

I think everyone should consider what I'm trying to do - make a baritone instrument that really doesn't currently exist on the market. Therefore I don't have much to compare it to. I can look at other guitars out there and talk about what I like and dislike, but then you have to wonder if those woods or wood combinatiosn will sound good in baritone form. Sure, we're really only talking about an increased scale length and heavier strings, but it's amazing the difference that can make on the overall tone of the guitar.

In a way, then, I feel like I'm stepping into alien territory a bit. There are some baritones out there that come close to what I'd like to do, but really it seems many are made just by slapping a longer neck on a standard guitar body. This seems to be the case with the Fender Sub-Sonic and the Les Paul Studio Baritone, at least.

Everything I know about tone woods I know from playing standard-scale guitars. My Les Paul is the classic maple/mahogany combo, my Fender Strat is made of alder and my Ibanez RG550 is basswood. I personally don't like basswood very much. Alder is a very nice and balanced tone wood. And of course the LP sounds great, but would that wood mix work on a baritone? Would it be too muddy, especially when you're talking about using very heavy strings and tuning A-to-A?

Some thoughts:

1. Other than the Harrison Tele and a specific model of PRS, I have not seen a guitar made of rosewood - not even very expensive custom jobs. This makes me wonder. Warmoth does offer them, though.

2. Solidbody electrics made of redwood are even more rare. I'm not sure if Warmoth offers them, either.

[westhemann]

"most musical"?

music is subjective.besides that,any straight grained,quartersawn hardwood is going to transfer sound better than others that are not as straight grained.

different is not better.and rosewood may not be as good for some types of music as others.

it's the same as saying marshalls are more musical than fender amps.different applications deserve a different base sound.

and i bet stevie ray was more "musical" on his alder guitar than most others on a rosewood guitar...especially after the guys on the rosewood guitars are hurting like hell after a 1/2 hour of playing

anyway...bla bla bla