!!METAL MATT!! Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 This is the finish Im going for and Im useing the same method Ok guy's Im starting the Oak flying-V body today and I would Like to paint It flat black But as most of you know I have yet to paint ONE guitar so this will be many First's for me I need to know what Would be the best Grain filler to fill in Oak so that I could work toward's that type of finish also Any more tip,info,hit's,head's up would Be realy cool! !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mledbetter Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 I'd do epoxy.. not that you'll need the hardness so much but oak is so extremely porous.. the color of epoxy won't matter since you're doing a flat black.. but you should be able to get it close to perfect with epoxy, then a few coats of primer will level it out completely prior to your paint job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted May 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 Ok That make's sence But how Should I apply an epoxy fill? and what type should I use? and where can I get it? Sorry about all the Qustions but Im realy geting excited about this !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragasguitars Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 First, you can get it at any hardware store probably, and use a 2-ton epoxy. Any brand will probably do fine. I have a Devcon applicator gun with epoxy cartridges and static mixers but you don't need to buy all that, just makes things easier. Most epoxys come in a premeasured applicator that dispenses the right mix. Just squeeze out onto something to mix it. Put on latex gloves, and get a hair dryer or heat gun. Heat up the epoxy to thin it out a little and just rub it on. Then heat it up some more once applied to help it get in real good. Hanging the guitar will help you keep both hands free and don't by shy with it, you are going to sand it when it cures anyway. Plus it dries glossy so you can really see the low spots. If you sand through in spots on accident just touch up that area the same way. Do a little section at at time cause it can start to cure before you want it to if you mix too much or work too slow, but you should have a good bit of working time, most say 20 minutes but for this type of application its much less. Once you heat it you might have 5 minutes of good working time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mledbetter Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 I'm using the slow set (30 min) black epoxy from stewmac. You mix it and then squeegie it on with like an index card or something so you can sort of scrape it into the pores and not leave too much on the top to have to sand away. You're just grain filling, not trying to seal the wood completely so as long as you bring the pits and pores up to the level of the top wood you'll have what you need. The black really pops out the grain too.. of course that doesn't matter here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted May 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 WOW cool man thank's That's some great Info there Now will I still need to use a sanding sealer as well? and what should My wood be sanded to before I apply the epoxy fill? and after I put it on the body I should heat it up on there as well? and does any one have Any pic's of the epoxy fill process? I think Maiden may have some But I cant find them any where Thanks's guy's for all the help !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mledbetter Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 WOW cool man thank's That's some great Info there Now will I still need to use a sanding sealer as well? and what should My wood be sanded to before I apply the epoxy fill? and after I put it on the body I should heat it up on there as well? and does any one have Any pic's of the epoxy fill process? I think Maiden may have some But I cant find them any where Thanks's guy's for all the help !!METAL MATT!! ← Maiden is the one to ask the specifics.. I'm barely getting started with this.. but following advice from his thread.. Which is the one about the 7 string PRS if you search for it. Personally,I would seal, then porefil. Sealing would just ensure you're not losing epoxy too far sown into the guitar. Depending on how thich it is, i'm sure oak can really drink up stuff like that. Sand to reasonably smooth 220-320 is sufficient.. you're going to resand it anyway after the epoxy. The stewmac stuff i'm not heating. But there is epoxy for woodworking stuff, and there is glue. The glue may be thicker so heating would be necessicary for using it as filler. Certainly cheaper to buy the glue for small doses. System3 epoxy is great stuff and you can get it at woodcraft or other nice woodworking stores, but it's abuot 30 bucks for the pair of bottles.. My black stuff was 12.95 i think and it's a couple small bottles. You could probably find a lot of epoxy talk at MIMF. A lot of the acoustic guys use it for porefilling too. A good clear epoxy for porefilling can enhance the clarity of grain and make your wood really resistant to dents and dings. Seek ventilation though nasty stuff, as are most of the various goos and goops we have to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted May 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 So ok how many coat's of sealer should I use? and where can I get that? !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragasguitars Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 I have used epoxy on buckeye burl, that stuff is like a sponge. I heated it both before and after I put it on the wood, but used 2-3 coats in places. Heating before allows you to spread it out, by heating after you can thin it out more and it will seep into the wood and help seal it. The second coat should just about fill up all the little spots. Like I said, touch up spots after sanding. Just keep priming and sanding till things look perfect. Don't be afraid to spend a few days and let all the coats cure very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mledbetter Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 hardware store. sanding sealer - deft, there are others.. just make sure they are compatible. I would think most anything would be compatible under auto primer. I've not researched that though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorecki Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 Keep in mind on the topic of filler that a flat black will show every minor flaw so fill as flawlessly as you can and still expect to do it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted May 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 Man this is realy deadly I cant beleave Im doing this I realy think I can do this Oh And I found This link that Maiden sent me a while a go this Is the sam thing right? http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...88entry122688 !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mledbetter Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 Man this is realy deadly I cant beleave Im doing this I realy think I can do this Oh And I found This link that Maiden sent me a while a go this Is the sam thing right? http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...88entry122688 !!METAL MATT!! ← Yep. That's it exactly. Thanks, i forgot that was there I love the black fill trick.. You may find you want to black burst the thing instead of solid Or do like a blood red to black burst with the black grain showing underneath.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_the_damned Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 "get on with it!!" sorry darn monty python but yeah I can't wait to see your finished finish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmrentis Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 Matt, check out inlays and finishing chat, LGM guitar I think. He does great work, I think the thread is Mirror Finish or something along those lines. He posted some pics and info on what he uses. With your designs and his finishes, I don't know if I would play the guitar or put it in a glass case on display. You two could make some serious guitars. Good luck with your project. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted May 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 Well I guess We'll see, Im glueing up the new body today at the same time as the other one So That's 2 outa 3 planed guitars sofar Not bad! !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houdini Posted May 28, 2005 Report Share Posted May 28, 2005 Just a reply to what mledbetter was saying. Minwax sells both a sanding sealer for various oil based finishes in a yellow can as well as sealer for acrylic based finishes. If you use acrylic based auto paint for the body I would suggest the acrylic based sanding sealer. This stuff is in a black can and is relatively new so all hardware stores may not carry it yet, but you can get in online and probably have lowes or home depot order it for you on their next shipment from minwax for no shipping???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grindliner Posted May 28, 2005 Report Share Posted May 28, 2005 (edited) I am new here and and am gonna toss in my .02 Since youre painting it why not save yourself some time and money and just use Bondo? I haven't used it on a guitar body, but have used it to restore window sashes where the whole corner rotted away due to water damage. Bondo is even marketing to the wood community these days http://www.bondo-online.com/catalog_item.asp?itemNbr=707 The above link is being sold in home depot, in the caulking aisle. But regular automotive bondo will work just fine. Edited May 28, 2005 by grindliner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted May 29, 2005 Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 I've tried bondo, and it just doesn't work well for filling grain. Maybe if you thinned it it would do better. Not sure what solvent you'd use, though. I filled the grain on an ash body 5 or 6 times with bondo, and it just wouldn't pack down in the grain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted May 29, 2005 Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 I heard my name and HERE I am. Ok, that bondo is useless, it shrinks, not too much but it does. If I was filling large holes I would use this one Is used for metal so it won't shrink, the one for wood is suppose to follow the expansion and contraction of the wood (very minimal but a lot for me). I use the slow setting epoxy from SM, but you can get any 2 part epoxy on a hardware store, just check to see the setting time, if it is less than 30 min don't use it, it wil lstart curing before you get to apply it good. Here are pics of some of the guitars that I used the SM epoxy. Black filled walnut Black filled mahogany mahogany before sanding black filled ash On all this I filled the grain first, then I used sanding sealer, after sanding the excess out and only leaving the grain filled. This will give you maximum grain definition, if you are doing a solid color it won't matter much, but I would still fill the grain first before sealing. Any more Q? just ask here, and I will reply later, I just moved and got my internet connected earlier today, so I got a lot of stuff to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted May 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 Ok so What would be the best tool for me to spreed the epoxy? What grit do I sand the epoxy too before I add the sanding sealer? What grit do I sand the sanding sealer to before I prime? Do I need To take extra care on the edge's and side's, and If so in what way? Now Do I need to epoxy fill all my cavitys/ Pickup,neck and All that? Is there any danger of useing TO MUCH epoxy and causing the wood to warp as it drys? what kind of a sanding sealer should I use for Oak? and roughly how many coat's would work? Thank's Maiden I have SO MANY QUSTIONS !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted May 29, 2005 Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 1. I use those cheap white painter spatulas from Home Depot, they're like .25 apiece or something... 2. Yes, too much epoxy and you'll be sanding back for friggin' centuries. PRESS it in as you go along, and don't leave some thick coat behind, SCRAPE it along and get rid of all the excess, you're just FILLING PORES, not clearcoating the whole guitar. 3. The only thing you need to epoxy is the surface. If you want to go further than that, your call. 4. Remember, you can tint/shade your epoxy with any normal pigment from an arts supply store, I recommend Tints-All tho, that's what I use. You can tint it sparkle gold, sparkle silver, sparkle blue, black, aqua green, whatever you can think of. I never use sanding sealer, I think it's a waste of time, but we all have our own ways, so I won't/can't comment on any sealer questions. You fill until all the pores are full. Hold the guitar up to the reflection of a lamp or something and look very closely at the whole surface, you'll see any divets that still need filling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted May 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 Cool man thanks 4. Remember, you can tint/shade your epoxy with any normal pigment from an arts supply store, I recommend Tints-All tho, that's what I use. You can tint it sparkle gold, sparkle silver, sparkle blue, black, aqua green, whatever you can think of. So what does this look like? It sound's interesting have you got any more info on this or some pic's !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted May 29, 2005 Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 I use the sanding sealer kinda for cheating, I can do it with DEFT laquer, but it takes a lot of coats, the sanding sealer builds up quick and is a bit easier to sand level. I was afraid of using the SS because of the high solid content, and that once you spary it it looks matte and kinda milky. But as soon as the 1st clear coat goes on it turns crystal clear. On the blue quilt guitar, I did the body with SS but the neck was laquer alone, the top was ready for clear after 3 coats of SS, it took me atleast 6 coats of laquer just to get it to the point that the little grain theat raised up wasn't showing. Tint-All Matt when we post any product here that you don't know whta it is, just google it, it is much easier than asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted May 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2005 Cool thanks Maiden! This Is a realy great amount of info Im geting sofar Thanks guy's !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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