uglogirl Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 I have a mahogany strat body with a 1/8" maple top that split in half (don't ask) .. not along the joint. It's pretty much being held together by the maple top and I wonder can it be saved? It has been stained but not finished. Maybe I could inject wood glue into the crack and clampt? I feel sick... 4 weeks work gone. uglogirl Quote
Marzocchi705 Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 How clean is the crack? any pics of it? If its a clean split, ie no splinters of wood missing, i would attempt getting a good woodglue in the crack and clamping it. How did the crack happen in the first place? Quote
uglogirl Posted August 2, 2005 Author Report Posted August 2, 2005 (edited) How clean is the crack? any pics of it? If its a clean split, ie no splinters of wood missing, i would attempt getting a good woodglue in the crack and clamping it. How did the crack happen in the first place? ← It's very clean... very fine too but it goes the length of the body about 1/4" to the side of the neck route. it's wider on the bottom... 1/32" maybe. I was incredibly dumb... I recalled reading that I could bake on a finsih at 150 degrees so I baked it in the oven to make an enamel purfling stripe harden enough to shoot lacquer over it. what on earth was I thinking? I'll take some pictures tommorrow when I can get my hands on my digital camera. It's kind of a bastard guitar project... I "inherited" th body and it was back routed for a Floyd so I filled that up with matching maple and re-routed it for my Kahler flyer. It didn't look bad from 3 ft away. sigh. uglogirl Edited August 2, 2005 by uglogirl Quote
Drak Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 Pics would help. But I would probably throw it away and start over, using what you've learned so far to make the next one better. Let me put it like this: 4 weeks gone? I don't think so, I bet you learned a helluva lot from that old piece of wood so far. Now, look at the weeks and weeks coming up, and if you finish it, will you always look at it as a guitar you spent several months on that has a godawful crack going down the middle? Wouldn't that give you the heebs for years to come? It would me. Or let's try plan B. Lets look at it like this: for whatever price you paid for the materials so far, you have 4 weeks of knowledge of guitar building and as an added BONUS, a scrap guitar body to use to practice all the new things you'll try coming up so you won't harm the brand new one. Now, that's not a bad bargain for what you probably paid for the wood. You cannot change an event in time, you cannot change the fact that your guitar has a huge crack in it, but what you DO have the POWER to change is YOUR PERCEPTION of the event and what you got out of it. Will you say 'this completely sucks and there is nothing good that can come from this, this sucks sucks sucks... Or will you say 'well, it isn't exactly what I had in mind, but when I look at it a little differently, hell, this wasn't a bad deal in the end' You have many possibilities to choose from, you don't have to go with your first basic impression of the event, you have choices, lots of choices here. But be honest with your gut feelings about whether it would bother you years from now that your guitar has a huge fixed crack in it. Up to you and how you feel about it. Quote
uglogirl Posted August 2, 2005 Author Report Posted August 2, 2005 (edited) Pics would help. But I would probably throw it away and start over, using what you've learned so far to make the next one better. you know... you're right. I think I will repair this one as good as I can and use it as a beater to learn new stuff on and for trying out pickups and weird wiring ideas on, but I want to build something really nice knowing what I do now. I did learn a lot (rule #1: do not put guitars in ovens lol), I sanded and stained and learned what to do and what doesn't work and I learned how to use a router. I'm going to order a hunk of swamp ash and some bubinga! I have a gorgeous piece of 4x36x1" birdseye maple begging to be made into a 24" scale ebony fretboard neck too. It was pretty though... gorgeous quilted top that I stained a weird kind of salmon pink/orangy/reddish and a dark red back. I think I'll fill the crack with glue and then resand the back and paint it a solid color while I'm waiting for that swamp ash and bubinga. rawk, Uglogirl PS - I'll post pics tommorrow - thanks for the advice! Edited August 2, 2005 by uglogirl Quote
westhemann Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 I think I'll fill the crack with glue and then resand the back and paint it a solid color while I'm waiting for that swamp ash and bubinga. if i were you i would definately finish it...i mean put the finish on it...complete it just for the full experience so that on the next one you will have run the entire gamut of guitar finishing...then when you complete the new one,just throw the cracked one into the closet until you feel good enough about it to do a re-top i would not plan on ever playing it...i could not stand knowing that crack is there Quote
Drak Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 Yeah, I agree with that. When I said throw it away, I meant what Wes said, to not take it seriously as a guitar anymore, but to use it as a learning tool now. You could practice with a lot of different dyes and effects by continually applying, then sanding off different finishes just to see how they would turn out. Quote
westhemann Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 you know what i just realized? my beast is crotch wood...so due to the crotch figuring,it also had "cracks" in the figuring...i just filled them with ca and kept going...just wanted to point out that with SOME woods it is acceptable to have a "crack" here and there...if it is the nature of that wood... but unfortunately that doesn't apply with maple...except for some spalt Quote
uglogirl Posted August 2, 2005 Author Report Posted August 2, 2005 you know what i just realized? my beast is crotch wood...so due to the crotch figuring,it also had "cracks" in the figuring...i just filled them with ca and kept going...just wanted to point out that with SOME woods it is acceptable to have a "crack" here and there...if it is the nature of that wood... but unfortunately that doesn't apply with maple...except for some spalt ← What is CA? I was thinking of epoxy but it would be too thick to get into the crack. uglogirl Quote
jmrentis Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 It's pretty much being held together by the maple top and I wonder can it be saved? my beast is crotch wood...so due to the crotch figuring,it also had "cracks" in the figuring...i just filled them with ca and kept going...just wanted to point out that with SOME woods it is acceptable to have a "crack" here and there...if it is the nature of that wood... but unfortunately that doesn't apply with maple...except for some spalt I just caught this! I think his top maple is fine, thats whats holding it together, it's the mogohany thats split. Isn't the beast crotch mogohany? I think thats what you said it was(man I still can't get over how much I liked that guitar). I know that the beast probably didn't have cracks the size of his body but it would be more likely fixable than maple right? Just thought I would try and clarify that, he might be in better shape than he thought, I know it still wouldn't be advisable to use this body, but personally I would have liked to finish it just so I could show off how it was ready for the trash and I made it into a playable guitar, I would be proud of that fact, that scar as I would call it. Good luck with body, but I would do what everyone is saying and use it to practice different things like finishes, bindings and routing. Later Man, I hope it works out for you. Jason Quote
fryovanni Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 One thing is for sure you have learned a big lesson (all be it the hard way). Your passing on this info will surely help to prevent it from happening to anyone who reads this thread. It is great that you have a positive outlook and are moving forward. We all have these things happen, its just part of the learning curve. Heat and rapid drying will do some big damage to wood especially at the end grain area where it will lose moisture the fastest. It will also weaken all the glue joints(we use heat to soften glue and help remove fretboards, bridges(glued), necks etc..). The baked enamel idea did sound interesting. I wonder if that could be done on a suitable strip of material (maybe brass binding strips?) and used in a similar fasion for perfling. Anyhow, keep up the good work and thanks for sharing your information. Peace, Rich Quote
westhemann Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 ca glue is basically superglue...you can get it in various places...i like this stuff http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Glues,_adhesiv..._Adhesives.html i use the thin for cracks...you just kep putting it in until it fills up,pausing between applcations long enough for the previous application to dry,and when it is full you just sand the body until the ca is all flush with the surface...you need to make sure you don't see any left on the surface before finishing in clear...but for a solid color,you would not have to worry ... jm is right..i misunderstood a bit...i thought you meant the maple was cracked...if it is indeed a fine crack like you said,and it is in the back mahogany,then IF it is fine enough you may be able to salvage it with glueing and using solid colors for the back,like you said...BUT i don't really reccomend that just because you said it runs the entire length of the body.. i wish i could see some pictures..is it a flat top or carved?do you have access to a thickness planer? if it is a flat top and you have a power thickness planer,you COULD just plane off the back mahogany completely and replace it...salvaging the top that you like so much.. Quote
brian d Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 Even if the crack is the whole length of the body, what's the problem with gluing/clamping it if there the crack is clean and there is no gap in the joint. It would basically be like the join in a 2 or 3 piece body. No problem with that, especially if it's painted solid colour. If your lucky, considering that the grain will be an absolutely perfect match (compare that with 2-3 piece bodies) if there is a really tight fit, you may be able to clear finish it too. Brian. Quote
jmrentis Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 (edited) I'm not sure about this but I've been told that the best way to get a good joint is to use the smoothest surface you can get, like a freshly planed board or how some boards come from the hardwood shops already planed. So I would assume a crack would not be as nearly as good of a joint because it wouldn't be nearly smooth enough, also having to use thin ca glue which seems is the only thing that would work in this situation, will not give you the same good joint say titebond would give you when gluing up a body. I'm not to keen in that area, but I just put what I have learned and heard about glue and wood. I think it might work out to be a usable body, but who knows? Is it worth it to spend all the time and money to find out it wasn't, when you could have all the wood for a new one and be nearly done with it. And like most everyone said it would be a great practice piece, for finishes and all that. So again that is just what I thought about it, Later. Jason Edited August 2, 2005 by jmrentis Quote
Mattia Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 I'm not sure about this but I've been told that the best way to get a good joint is to use the smoothest surface you can get, like a freshly planed board or how some boards come from the hardwood shops already planed. So I would assume a crack would not be as nearly as good of a joint because it wouldn't be nearly smooth enough, also having to use thin ca glue which seems is the only thing that would work in this situation, will not give you the same good joint say titebond would give you when gluing up a body. I'm not to keen in that area, but I just put what I have learned and heard about glue and wood. I think it might work out to be a usable body, but who knows? Is it worth it to spend all the time and money to find out it wasn't, when you could have all the wood for a new one and be nearly done with it. And like most everyone said it would be a great practice piece, for finishes and all that. So again that is just what I thought about it, Later. Jason ← Yes, that's true, but we're talking freshly planed. A planed board from the store really should at least get a scrape before gluing. The mythology is that sanded or scored joints will hold better. A crack, if it's clean and fits will, will make a perfectly fine joint. The surface will be split, which generally translates to a very clean, tight-fitting crack, and if it's glued fairly soon after it cracks, it should really be fine, and qausi-invisible to boot. The surfaces mating will probably be pretty darn smooth, individually, just not flat. Two different things. This said, the 'best' glue for this would probably be hot hide (most invisible line), second choice titebond for me. For a crack running all the way down a body, all the way through, I don't think CA is the wisest of choices. It'll stain the wood, leave a clear glue line (works better on darker woods), you won't be able to get stains to penetrate where the CA did, and it's not the strongest of glues ever. Me? I'd get the maple top off (palette knife, household iron, patience. You can always bind it if you muck up the edges), join it properly with the top off, sand off glue residue, and then, if you want to, reglue the top. Then decide what you want to do with it. If nothing else, it'll be a valuable learning experience, intro to repairwork, if you will. Seriously, if the wood's simply split (due to, probably, dyhdration), gluing it together with hide glue is quite likely to result in an invisible joint. Good excuse to look into using hot hide if there ever was one. However, you'll probably want to get some new wood, and start on a second body anyway. Just don't give up on as perfect a repair as possible quite yet. Oh, and next time you want to harden enamel? Use a hairdryer or something :-) Quote
westhemann Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 i agree about ca not being the best glue for joining wood...obviously. i think though that you will find it difficult to get hide glue or titebond all the way through the crack.is hot hide glue that thin?i have never used it. Quote
uglogirl Posted August 2, 2005 Author Report Posted August 2, 2005 (edited) Hokay got a pic but the crack is so thin it doesn't show very well. In the upper bout there is a crack but no space. http://www.2tough.com/~kiira/rec/crackofdoom.jpg this is a picture of the top with the stuff I was planning on using http://www.2tough.com/~kiira/rec/top2.jpg and a pretty cream pearl pickguard http://www.2tough.com/~kiira/rec/top1.jpg here is my first jagucaster project http://www.2tough.com/~kiira/rec/kiiracaster.jpg this is the funny decal I made for it http://www.2tough.com/~kiira/rec/KCheadstock.jpg this is me http://www.2tough.com/~kiira/rec/cool.html http://www.2tough.com/~kiira/rec/images/kiira-caster.jpg I think the CA/go ahead and finish it an use it for experiments" idea is the best but I am not sure how to get the glue in there. Uglogirl Edited August 2, 2005 by uglogirl Quote
uglogirl Posted August 2, 2005 Author Report Posted August 2, 2005 This said, the 'best' glue for this would probably be hot hide (most invisible line), second choice titebond for me. For a crack running all the way down a body, all the way through, I don't think CA is the wisest of choices. It'll stain the wood, leave a clear glue line (works better on darker woods), you won't be able to get stains to penetrate where the CA did, and it's not the strongest of glues ever. Me? I'd get the maple top off (palette knife, household iron, patience. You can always bind it if you muck up the edges), join it properly with the top off, sand off glue residue, and then, if you want to, reglue the top. If it was not already boogered up I would... remember it was originally back routed for a floyd and I epoxied in a 1/2" piece of matching maple in order to fill the entire floyd route... then re-routed it for a Kahler flyer. It shows in the pic but it wouldn't be horribly ugly after I finished it. thanks, Uglogirl Quote
fryovanni Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 If the crack is caused by heat and drying (causing shrinkage), it is not the same as a crack created by an impact or what have ya. You won't have a good joint. You may be able to apply enough pressure to compress the wood somewhat and fill the remaining gap, but not ideal. Most likely this will only fill in the gap which may provide fair results for finishing. The issue of the glue joints that have been subjected to the heat of an oven possibly being weakend. Well that is hard to say, maybe no problem (only time will tell). Peace, Rich Quote
Primal Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 Hmm.... another idea might be to plane the back down (or not) and add a 1/8" or so layer of mahogany or maple or something. I imagine that would help stabilize the mahogany. However, this idea would probably be best used to reference to on a later project since you already have the guitar finished. Quote
uglogirl Posted August 2, 2005 Author Report Posted August 2, 2005 Well, I glued and clamped it with CA and when it was dry I sanded it back and restained. I can hardly see any line at all so I'm going to go ahead and clear coat as I originally planned. I'll use acrylic lacquer from a can since it is a salvage job now instead of setting up the gun to shoot nitro. It looks pretty decent! :-) Yay. Thanks for everyone's help I've learned a lot. I ordered tiger eye maple for the neck and body and some curly figured mahogany for a top for my next project. I ordered from Simon at internetlumber.com... their service and prices are excellent. Uglogirl Quote
westhemann Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 you can get deft nitro in a can,and it will act much better than the acrylic...i only suggest this because acrylic is tough for me to get on without runs... but all aeresol is going to run easily...just some more easily than others...are you saying you are already experienced with your spraygun?because if not i would thinkk this would be a good opportunity to get used to it...before going kamikazi on a less flawed piece.. "tiger's eye" maple? am a bit confused...i though tiger's eye was a type of stained finish?is this another term for "quilted"...or do you mean "tiger maple",which is a term for "flamed"? Quote
thegarehanman Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 Maybe it's like birdseye, but the "eyes" are 1" in dia. haha Quote
uglogirl Posted August 2, 2005 Author Report Posted August 2, 2005 you can get deft nitro in a can,and it will act much better than the acrylic...i only suggest this because acrylic is tough for me to get on without runs... but all aeresol is going to run easily...just some more easily than others...are you saying you are already experienced with your spraygun?because if not i would thinkk this would be a good opportunity to get used to it...before going kamikazi on a less flawed piece.. Luckily shooting paint is a skill I already have... I used to shoot Imron and 2 part automotive on custom bicycle frames. They are VERY hard to get right. I still have my equipment sooooo. I can get the acrylic on from a can easily with no runs.. it's cheap and the auto store on the corner sells it. I put four thin coats on this afternoon and it looks fine. "tiger's eye" maple? am a bit confused...i though tiger's eye was a type of stained finish?is this another term for "quilted"...or do you mean "tiger maple",which is a term for "flamed"? ← Doh... yeah I meant flame maple. Thinko. Uglogirl Quote
westhemann Posted August 2, 2005 Report Posted August 2, 2005 Luckily shooting paint is a skill I already have... I used to shoot Imron and 2 part automotive on custom bicycle frames. They are VERY hard to get right. I still have my equipment sooooo. I can get the acrylic on from a can easily with no runs.. it's cheap and the auto store on the corner sells it. I put four thin coats on this afternoon and it looks fine. cool...uh...U GLO GIRL! is that how you meant your name...or does uglo mean something i am not familiar with...i am just curious Quote
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