GregP Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 The only Alex Laiho exposure I have is a lesson from some Guitar magazine. He was pretty sloppy, but I still wished I could do half of what he was doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 children of bodm is basically a heavier version of dream theater No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 Hi guys, I just put a video together (to make the things that are going in this thread even worse. ) The guy on that video is Alexi Laiho and he is using an absolutely ultra-freaking low action on his guitar - maybe 1 milimeter of action at the 24th fret (this is not a joke - check out the video). I tried to give examples of harsh palm muted chugga chugga playing (some people clim it's not OK to do that on low action guitars), harsh string strumming, serious string bending (also a popular belief that you cannot string bend with low action) etc... Watch the video to the end - it is in three sections with separate examples. And here is the VIDEO For those of you who are not familiar with YouTube - you just click on the link above and wait for the video to load in the small window on the page. PS: Alexi Laiho has a signature ESP that is being sold in the stores but I don't think I would spend such amount of money on one guitar (yeah, I'm cheap) AND I seriously doubt it that the commercial version of his signature ESP model has anything to do with the guitar he uses. RUBBISH. I just paused the video, at the end of section one, and can clearly see the distance from the large E string, to the fretboard, is twice the thickness of the string. If that string is a 0.042, thats already more than 2mm... but its not, its at least a 50, or 56, according to Alexi's string supplier ( which translates to 2.5-2.8mm action). The string action looks to be the a simular consistancy over the range of strings. The second section, sure, he is jumping around and making big movements, but i dont see heavy playing. And even if he was, with the volumes and gain they are playing with, you'd never hear string buzz. I see a guy with a sweat band that is used as a 'buffer' so he can hit the body of the guitar with his wrist, without it catching or hurting. Very common technique to gauge where everything is on stage, when so many things are going on. The third section. Its real easy to bend with a floating bridge, because the bridge pulls up, raising the action, when you bend. Nice try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 children of bodm is basically a heavier version of dream theater No. buddy,don't roll your eyes at me...i have been listening to dream theater since they first came out in the 80s(though i am not a huge fan..the point is i am familiar)and i have heard enough children of bodom to know that they draw heavily from them...keyboard solos,shredding,and all.if you can't hear the similarities have your ears checked... maybe lately dream theater may have progressed...but even yourself put them both in the same "progressive metal" category in the other thread...so jump off the "i know everything about music" high horse you are on and start listening to music rather than trying to shape everyone to your way of thinking. sorry if this sounds harsh...but one word replies and sarcastic emoticons are meant to only do one thing...troll for a response try it out and see if you don't agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 buddy,don't roll your eyes at me...i have been listening to dream theater since they first came out in the 80s(though i am not a huge fan..the point is i am familiar)and i have heard enough children of bodom to know that they draw heavily from them...keyboard solos,shredding,and all.if you can't hear the similarities have your ears checked... Sarcasm, my friend! And lots of bands have keyboard solos and shredding. Infact, about every single prog metal band out there has them. I really wouldn't say CoB is heavier than Dream Theater, I'm not even sure what would classify what is heavier in this case, vocal style? I just find it funny that you mention the two, since Alexi has strong feelings against Dream Theater and has called Petrucci out in the past - just a funny case of irony the two bands are mentioned in the same sentence regarding comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerDude Posted February 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 (edited) RUBBISH. I just paused the video, at the end of section one, and can clearly see the distance from the large E string, to the fretboard, is twice the thickness of the string. If that string is a 0.042, thats already more than 2mm... but its not, its at least a 50, or 56, according to Alexi's string supplier ( which translates to 2.5-2.8mm action). The string action looks to be the a simular consistancy over the range of strings. Hmmm, it seems that everybody who watched the video (myself included) must have missed that part... The string action looks pretty damn low to me. Can't find a frame where the low string is twice its width far from the fretboard. Can you show us a screenshot? The second section, sure, he is jumping around and making big movements, but i dont see heavy playing. And even if he was, with the volumes and gain they are playing with, you'd never hear string buzz. I see a guy with a sweat band that is used as a 'buffer' so he can hit the body of the guitar with his wrist, without it catching or hurting. Very common technique to gauge where everything is on stage, when so many things are going on. So what you're saying is that low action is not a problem when you're playing metal? This is what I am saying too. Just for the record: Alexi ain't using any buffers. The third section. Its real easy to bend with a floating bridge, because the bridge pulls up, raising the action, when you bend. Nice try. Again - seems that low action is not of any problem for doing string bends? Well, I hear what you're sayng - seems that you believe that a floating bridge is necessary to raise the action while you're doing the bend. This is not a bad thing because you still have low action in the moment you're fretting the sting. Another thing is that most live performers are using a Tremsetter - a device that does not allow the floating bridge to lean forward while you are doing string bendings and keeps the rest of the strings in tune. Yet another example: the action on my Ibanez is 1,2mm at 12th fret - that's not too low but still on the lower side. I can do string bends with my FloydRose fixed and not floating. And it was not a "nice try" because I 'm not "trying", I'm just showing. To the guys who argue about whether COB is a heavier DT clone - read about Alexi's influences. Here is a quotation from Wikipedia: In April of 2005 Alexi generated a considerable amount of unrest in the metal guitar community when, in an interview with Guitar World magazine, he referred to popular prog metal act Dream Theater as "super lame" going on to say "It's not even music; it's sports." The magazine also referred to Dream Theater as Laiho's "favorite whipping boys." In January 2006 issue of the same magazine, reader Brad Bailey asked "Why did you make those lame comments about Dream Theater in GW? You're a fine player, but comments like those just make people lose respect for you. Did you know it caused a big stir?" to which Laiho responded "F*ck. Well, apparently it did. First of all, I think it's really funny that people trash bands and musicians every day on the internet, and nobody gives a ****. But once you say something like that - which wasn't even too bad - in a magazine, all of a sudden you're the biggest dick on the earth. But truthfully, I don't know why I said that. I was having a bad day or something. Obviously, John Petrucci is a better player than I am, and it's not my place to talk **** about him." Edited February 28, 2007 by DrummerDude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 You guys are good, if you can give an action measurement from looking at that video. I can't. Safe to say his action is not high, but that's about it, as far as I'm concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 RUBBISH. I just paused the video, at the end of section one, and can clearly see the distance from the large E string, to the fretboard, is twice the thickness of the string. If that string is a 0.042, thats already more than 2mm... but its not, its at least a 50, or 56, according to Alexi's string supplier ( which translates to 2.5-2.8mm action). The string action looks to be the a simular consistancy over the range of strings. Hmmm, it seems that everybody who watched the video (myself included) must have missed that part... The string action looks pretty damn low to me. Can't find a frame where the low string is twice its width far from the fretboard. Can you show us a screenshot? This is what happens when your missus is out, and you're bored: The second section, sure, he is jumping around and making big movements, but i dont see heavy playing. And even if he was, with the volumes and gain they are playing with, you'd never hear string buzz. I see a guy with a sweat band that is used as a 'buffer' so he can hit the body of the guitar with his wrist, without it catching or hurting. Very common technique to gauge where everything is on stage, when so many things are going on. So what you're saying is that low action is not a problem when you're playing metal? This is what I am saying too. Just for the record: Alexi ain't using any buffers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopolis Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 i love perry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Ah DrummerDude...yet another topic where you post a question and don't bother reading or at least considering the replies. I watched the video too, didn't want to jump in, but as long as Perry pointed it out, I have to agree-- I don't see any super-low action there. Granted, it's not high, but it doesn't look any lower than the action on my strat. Regardless, with the level of effects he has on there, action really is no longer an issue, is it? I mean, take any guitar, load it down with a couple different types of distortion, turn your amp all the way up and add a compressor/sustainer for good measure, and you can pretty much breathe on the strings to sound the notes. In fact, it seems to me that with this kind of playing style, you'd want a super light touch--since you don't need to press down on the strings really to get the notes to sound out. As for, hard hitting playing sorry....sorry...I see one feathery wrist there. A good showman, perhaps, but there's no slamming going on there. There's no way he can slam down on the strings --not with that kind of distortion anyway. He just has excellent technique, is all (if you like that sort of thing, personally I hate this stuff). I prefer Pete Townsend...or the guy in the Black Keys --no he seems like he's making an effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somn Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 (edited) Geezzz if you freeze the frame you can clearly see that’s not William shatner but his body double gezzz lol j/k Edited March 1, 2007 by somn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Geezzz if you freeze the frame you can clearly see that’s not William shatner but his body double gezzz lol j/k You may joke my newbie friend, but time has proven if people arent 'slapped' with the facts, then it becomes gospel. I prefer facts to BS. Just because you saw some pre-teen post on the net about his bla bla, doesnt make it so. Desopolis, i love you too. In a manly way :DB) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGman Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 (edited) @ Perry: I love the way you prove a point, and a fact! Edited March 1, 2007 by RGman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerDude Posted March 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Hmmm, I still don't see anything but low action on the paused frame you posted, Mr. Rhoads. I see that you're judging the action by the distance between the strings and the shadows that they cast onto the frets. This is a mistake since the main light sources are placed on Alexi's rear-top. Check the photo below. ^^^ And with that kind of lighting the strings may as well cast a shadow 5 meters forward of their real situation. I hope you understand what I mean because my English is beyond bad. Just watch the strings barely move while he is playing and you'd know that the action is pretty low. To me it looks like it is 1mm or under at the last fret. I got what you meant by a "buffer". Yes, he has a wristh band - it is used to tighten your wrist and to make it "slide" over the top of the guitar. Without it the sweat would make your wrist sticky and thius would hurdle your playing. At first I thought that you meant something like a buffing device ala-Michael Angelo Batio. I agree on what you said about the floating bridge - yes, it does help, but no, it's not absolutely necessary. The fact that I have no problem doing string bends with my tremolo fixed makes me believe so. I remember reading that Alexi uses a Tremsetter. Will try to find the link to that. Anyway, I don't want to argue anymore. If you say that Alexi's action is rather high - OK, I have no problem with that. I found the answer for myself and I'll just focus on making a low action guitar. I have a question about neck relief. If no-neck-relief is one of the keys to low action, then how to achieve this with a pre-made neck that already has neck relief? Problem is that I will be (hopefully) using a pre-made neck from a Squier. I believe that those necks have a neck relief. I will use the truss rod to even the neck out and try to make it dead straight with the strings on. But when I remove the strings and the neck from the body, it will bend backwards and I won't be able to level the frets. What's the secret here? Start leveling the frets immediately after I remove the straightened neck and not give it a chance to bend backwards? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerDude Posted March 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Opps, I think I figured it out: I will remove the neck and make it dead straight using the truss rod. Then I will level the frets. Then I will put it back on the body, string the guitar, wait for the neck take a forward bend and mess with the truss rod again until the neck is dead straight again. Is this the right way to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Hmmm, I still don't see anything but low action on the paused frame you posted, Mr. Rhoads. I see that you're judging the action by the distance between the strings and the shadows that they cast onto the frets. This is a mistake since the main light sources are placed on Alexi's rear-top. Check the photo below. ^^^ And with that kind of lighting the strings may as well cast a shadow 5 meters forward of their real situation. I hope you understand what I mean because my English is beyond bad. Just watch the strings barely move while he is playing and you'd know that the action is pretty low. To me it looks like it is 1mm or under at the last fret. You cant win. I never judged his action by using the shadow, hence the "vertical" line, showing the distance from the fret to the string, perpendicular to the guitar face. You can also see how far the shadow is cast (on an angle) by looking how close the shadow is to the edges of the fretboard, you can see there is SOME shadow angle, by comparing the bass to treble sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerDude Posted March 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 You cant win. I can't win because I am not competing with anyone. But if you insist on the arguement, then OK, here we go: On your diagram, you simply drew a vertical line from the string to the fret and judged the action by it. This is SO wrong. Why? Because the real line that measures the distance between the fret and the string is NOT vertical from our pint of view. Think about it. Here is what the real measurement line should look like: Apparently, it is QUITE short. In other words - the action is quite low. I hope you get it. Think in 3D. Now, could you give me any advice on the no-neck-relief setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 EDITEDTake a look at my vertical line, and compare it to the vertical line formed by the binding, on the edge of the fretboard. I even cut and pasted a small section of image over there, so we wouldnt have to have this discussion. I am not interested in assisting you with your no neck relief guitar. You are unable to comprehend the slightest problems, and wish to argue when you are clearly wrong. You have zero ability to see the faults in your own ideas, and seem to have no knowledge of how a neck and truss rod works. You are yet one more person on this site who cannot, and will not listen to reason. Find someone else to assist you. Think in 3D?? Think with your brain!! If you are going to argue, at least have the decency to have some background knowledge of what you are talking about. Seriously, its not STILL school holidays is it?? Admin Edit No Name Calling Perry, You know Better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerDude Posted March 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 (edited) EDITED Take a look at my vertical line, and compare it to the vertical line formed by the binding, on the edge of the fretboard. I even cut and pasted a small section of image over there, so we wouldnt have to have this discussion. I am not interested in assisting you with your no neck relief guitar. You are unable to comprehend the slightest problems, and wish to argue when you are clearly wrong. You have zero ability to see the faults in your own ideas, and seem to have no knowledge of how a neck and truss rod works. You are yet one more person on this site who cannot, and will not listen to reason. Find someone else to assist you. Think in 3D?? Think with your brain!! If you are going to argue, at least have the decency to have some background knowledge of what you are talking about. Seriously, its not STILL school holidays is it??Take a second look and you will notice that the binding's edge on your diagram is not vertical at all but is slightly leaned left. Just like the line on my diagram. So if you lean those vertical lines you used a bit to the left and make them really follow the binding's edge, you will get almost the same thing as on my diagram. Calling me an idiot won't change the facts. Plus, how did you judge where to put the vertical lines at? What about drawing a line that covers several frets at a time (you did just that by making it cover two frets) and calling it a 3 inch action? I said several times that there's no need to argue. I just need help with getting a fretboard dead straight. Forget about Alexi laiho's guitar. Edited March 1, 2007 by Scott Rosenberger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksound Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 I just need help with getting a fretboard dead straight. Maybe you should find a tech in your town that you can talk to face to face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerDude Posted March 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 I just need help with getting a fretboard dead straight. Maybe you should find a tech in your town that you can talk to face to face. I'd do that if there were any in my town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Anyone got any good drummer jokes?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerDude Posted March 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Anyone got any good drummer jokes?? I have one but it is not a joke: DrummerDude just owned you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerDude Posted March 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 And just to show that those diagrams don't mean EDIT: How come my interpretation of your diagram, using your means came out with a much lower action? That's right - I was trying to make it look like that. What is needed is a real data sheet form ESP. Or let's just ask Alexi. Forget about all this EDIT. I appologize to anyone who felt offended. ADMIN EDIT Language Warning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Drummer, you really are leading yourself into a corner here, where no-one will be interested in helping you. Its too bad you cant see that. Kids these days huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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