513 Wiring

[kenggg]

I'm interest in PRS 513 model.

I would like wiring like this.

Who can tell me about diagram?

Thank you

kenggg

[1guitarslinger]

I'm not well versed on PRS models, but this should get you started:

http://www.prsguitars.com/csc/schematics.html

[Guitarfrenzy]

Well you can't just wire a 513 without the PRS 513 pickup system. I read up on it in a magazine a while back, and Paul told how it works. It's basically a new way they designed to add or subtract the amount of coil windings by a predetermined amount, by switching to 3 different modes. When your in heavy humbucker mode, the pickups actually tap more windings in them. It's not as simple as wiring up some pickups, you must have the electronics and the 513 pickup system to do the same thing. Sorry, but I don't think PRS is going to be selling these anytime soon.

Edited October 4, 2005 by Guitarfrenzy

[frank falbo]

Not to mention we did a huge thread on this a few months back, complete with ignorant theories as well as quality advice and ideas. But the thread does detail how it would have to be done. As far as I know it's 5 tapped coils, each with vintage and hot outputs. Without the PRS circuit board, I think it would be easier to do with mini toggles. You'd have tons of them, but I think it would be easier to organize them in my mind.

[Paul Marossy]

Well you can just wire a 513 without the PRS 513 pickup system

Umm, did you mean can't?

[Sambo]

Yeah, basically it is 5 coil tapped single coils wired in certain ways to make humbucking and SC configurations. Each one has a coil tap to achieve 'vintage' and 'hot' outputs. Seymour duncan will make custom pickups with coil taps (note the differance between coil taps and coil splits) so you can have a hot pickup that you can lower the output of. But, the problem is that you'd need some sodding complex wiring to pull it off! If you could find a switch with enough poles its possible (PRS has theirs custom made), but it'd probably be easier with a twin humbucker configuration with two three way switches, one voicing pickups, and one choosing the heavy, clear and single coil settings.

[Guitarfrenzy]

Well you can just wire a 513 without the PRS 513 pickup system

Umm, did you mean can't?

←

Yes, sorry, but now you see what can happen when you try to type too fast.. haha

[Paul Marossy]

Yes, sorry, but now you see what can happen when you try to type too fast.. haha

Just checking.

[GregP]

Of course it can be done. Sambo's right on the money-- it's just a combination of coil taps, coil splits, and full humbuckers, with a single coil in the middle.

The reason for the circuit board is to facilitate production and ensure consistency. As Sambo mentioned, it's a hell of a lot of wiring to do it without.

I personally wouldn't want to be the one doing it, but of course it can be done.

Greg

[lovekraft]

The switching is fairly trivial, and can easily be accomplished with a standard 5way and a two or three pole 3way. The trick is going to be finding the humbuckers - you'll need a humbucker that you can split, and the split coil will need to be tapped as well. I don't know of anybody who's making a "5 conductor" coil-tapped humbucking pickup, but I suppose you could have them custom-wound. If somebody can find suitable pickups, I'll be happy to draw up a wiring diagram, but it's useless without the special pickups.

Edited October 4, 2005 by lovekraft

[frank falbo]

...you'll need a humbucker that you can split, and the split coil will need to be tapped as well. I don't know of anybody who's making...

←

Not quite, remember BOTH coils are tapped, not just the one that's being used for a split. That way he gets vintage humbucker and hot humbucker sounds too, not just when in single mode. So that's 3 conductors per coil.

[frank falbo]

double post

Edited October 5, 2005 by frank falbo

[lovekraft]

Yeah, I did misread it - thanks, Frank! So that's ground, south coil tap, south coil full/north coil ground, north coil tap and north coil full, at a bare minimum,for each pickup, right? So that's five conductors, right? Forget what I said about trivial - it's still pretty straight-forward, but it's gonna take at least a four pole 3way! That's a lot of work!

[frank falbo]

I figure it's 6 plus the shield. They can't leave the coil junction hardwired because you have to be able to use hot or vintage wind of each coil, regardless of whether it's in humbucking or single coil mode. You're probably referring to hardwiring the south coil ground to the shield. Then you get shield + 5 conductor. But I'd want my south coil "ground" to be separated from the shield so I'd have seperate access to it. You could junction them for the 513 wiring scheme, but I'd want the ability to reverse phase or something later. If your tap was at 60%, then you could effectively get a 40% tap just by reversing phase on all three pups. Not important for PRS who've done all the research, but pretty useful perhaps for one-off custom winds, like the ones PG members might be doing.

[thegarehanman]

You can get a 4 pole 3 way rotary from Jameco.com or a 4 pole 3 way mini toggle from universaljems.com

[Guitarfrenzy]

Here's the article I was talking about.

PRS 513 article

You can see that to make it with only a minimal amount of knobs and switches for the guitar, you'd have to have a lot of special electronics and special pickups. I never said you couldn't wire one up that way, but only that it would be way more complex for the person who is playing the guitar. That's why the simpler the better..

[GregP]

Oh, there's certainly no way of doing it without special pickups. I don't think anyone would have disagreed about that.

I just re-read Sambo's post and even *I* had lost track of this important point: They are 5 coil-tapped single-coils, not 2 coil-tapped humbuckers plus a single-coil.

I know, in a lot of ways it's just nomenclature (a humbucker really IS just 2 combined single coils, though the winding is usually a bit different than what they'd do for a straight-up single-coil) but I think it helps when visualizing to think of them as 5 tapped single-coils rather than HSH.

Greg

[lovekraft]

Well, 4 tapped singles, if you choose to look at it that way - the article Guitarfrenzy linked to clearly states, "The middle single coil is the only thing we didn't change - you get the same amount of wire and the same output at all times".

Here's the way I'd do it, if I was implementing this setup:

This makes switching fairly simple - no connection is full humbucker, short A to B and D to E for humbucker light, and short A to C for single coil (with the option of shorting D to E for even less output). I can't say for certain that this is the way Paul does it, but it's one simple way to do what the 513 setup does. There's even the option of mismatching coils in the humbucker (Frank's 60/40 idea) by shorting B or D to C and mixing it with either the full opposite coil or that coil tapped. The only thing you can't do is parallel coils, and since it's not a feature of the 513, it wouldn't be economically sensible to complicate the production by building in features that won't be used. That still gives you 5 conductors (plus shield) to deal with in the cable, but at least it simplifies the switching a bit.

[Sambo]

If you look closely at the picture on that article, there is 5 wires on the middle single coil, and 10 out of each 'humbucker'. Basically, its a start and finish wire for each set of wire (there being two sets of wire round a pickup core) and the pickup grounding. this makes 5 wires (as in 2+2+ground=5). I don't see how the wiring can be done with the standard 5 way and standard 3 way, but hey!

I was thinking of making a similar version but ommiting the middle single coil. this would probably make it a bit easier As i said before. it says on the FAQ on the Seymour duncan website that they will make coil tapped pickups for you for $12 extra. never seen them for sale, but apparently they do it. Might email swineshead and see if they will do some.... hummm...

[lovekraft]

If you look closely at the picture on that article, there is 5 wires on the middle single coil...

I wonder if that's not for our benefit, to make it look more complex than it is, and confound those who would clone the idea. It's also possible that they're using some really complex switching and pickup winding options to make the circuit look more impressive for the patent office. There's simply no logical way to explain 5 wires from a single coil that doesn't have a coil tap.

[lovekraft]

OK, here's my take on doing this without tearing out one's hair, using the humbucking pickup setup I posted earlier:

(click on image for a full-sized view)

The switch illustrated is a Lorlin CK1457 rotary (Mouser part # 10WA367). Wire as shown, and simply wire the output leads and the single coil as usual to a standard, sinlge pole 5-way. Boom, you've got a bootleg 513! Enjoy!! Please don't use this on guitars for sale without checking your patent infringement liability exposure first, unless you can afford as many lawyers as PRS can.

If anybody decides to attempt this with an actual production (or custom-wound, for that matter) humbucker, and can't figure out what goes where, email me with a diagram of the pickup you're using, and we'll get it squared away.

[GregP]

Quick question:

My understanding is that back in the day, a coil tapped humbucker (tapped, not split) was a 'modification' to an existing humbucker. Is that true? If so, how did they pull it off?

Cheers for the diagrams, Lovekraft. I don't understand them completely yet, but if I ever get around to doing something like this, I'll be glad you made it up!

Greg

[Mattia]

Quick question:

My understanding is that back in the day, a coil tapped humbucker (tapped, not split) was a 'modification' to an existing humbucker.  Is that true?  If so, how did they pull it off?

←

Yes. A humbucker's just two coils, connected in series. You've already got one lead from each coil as your hookup leads. Trick is to find the connection between the two coils, cut that, and turn each into a 'proper' lead on its own. That's all a 4 conductor bucker is, one with both ends of each coil going out to a lead. Something like that, anyway. Ask someone else about the exact specifics :-)

[Daniel Sorbera]

Bralliant lovekraft. I can't believe I diddn't think of that. It's so simple.

But my question is (having never heard one before) would a tapped bucker really sound good? I mean is it just a marketing gimmik or does it really make it go from hot to vintage sound?

I guess you could have them put in the tap at say 8.13k (a 59') and the full at say 14.60k (a full shred, one of my favrite seymour duncan pickups).

BTW, you can also get this switch. I have one and it would work with that schematic and it is most deffinitly REALLY high quality. I would recomend this switch to anyone. Great company to deal with too.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Godin SD

[GregP]

mattia:

Cheers for the response, but you're describing a split, not tapped humbucker.

A tapped humbucker will have another lead coming from somewhere in the middle of the individual coil windings. I just wondered how it was possible to pull that off, as in my mind it doesn't seem to be.

Maybe when they refer to it as a modification, they still mean that they have to re-wind the whole pickup?

Greg