Guitarfrenzy Posted September 8, 2003 Report Share Posted September 8, 2003 ....because he was stating that polyester was the ONLY good finish and then he started attacking me saying I was not keeping up with technology. Yeah, I've actually been thinking of trying out Polyester paint myself... how well does it work.. I had talked with Joe Driskill and he said he used Polyester but had a UV booth .. so guess I'll stick with Polyurethane for now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehle Posted September 8, 2003 Report Share Posted September 8, 2003 After my last experience with lacquer, I'm going to try my first PolyU finish next. I don't have any spray equipment, so it's all going to be done by hand. The jury is still out on the hand rubbed process, but early tests show that it's going to be pretty sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted September 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2003 Oh yeah.. Poly is a huge improvement over lacquer.. major!!! You'll like it alot better just wear body suit also to make sure it doesn't absorb into your skin and a very good respirator. I also asked Driskill what he thought of Poly and he said it's equally as good, it's just that the Polyester is slightly better with the UV machine. But I won't quote what he says about nitro lacquer.. lol... basically when asked if I should still use lacquer he said, "sure if you want it to chip, dent, scratch easy,.." lol.. also lacquer is harder to work with... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehle Posted September 8, 2003 Report Share Posted September 8, 2003 Thanks for the tip about wearing more protection. I knew about the fumes and needing a respirator, but didn't know about the absorption (sp?) through the skin. Yikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted September 9, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2003 Yes it's better to be safe than sorry... what kind are you looking to buy at the moment? Dupont PGP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butnut Posted September 9, 2003 Report Share Posted September 9, 2003 I like using poly(urethane) over lacquer. When doing Schwinn repaints, I bought a lot of the original colors...all lacquer. Great for kandy as it dries fast and you can build up slow and thin. I first used clear lacquer as a final coat, but switched to poly for it's thick wet look build and depth. Lacquer has it's advantage of fast dry for doing graphics and tape off. I dunno, I find lacquer easy to work with, if you have a flub, just sand and touch up or start over. Only con I see is if you need to touch up after it's completely finished, lacquer can lift the poly clear coat and may react. Poly is toxic and a respirator should be used even while mixing. I have to keep my mask on even cleaning up with thinner, my chest hurts from the fumes...never bothered me before, even rattle cans bother me now...old age. When I had my custom furniture biz, we shot polyester. It's just like surfboard resin. Precise amount of catalyst is needed. First attempt was too 'hot'. It gelled in the pot and gun...our mainland supplier did'nt realize how hot it was here...major adjustment in the catalyst amount gave us more time. It's a heavy thick product, but flows like glass. Almost did'nt need buffing. Lacquer is being phased out and illegal to spray in Cali and maybe other places. Most paint shops don't even carry it...too old fashioned I guess. Luckily one shop still has it and will mix the colors I don't have. I've refinished a lot of old semi antique furniture...I used a European tech lacquer that looks and sprays like nitro, but as durable as poly. Technology does have some advantage, especially if it's to be used as furniture. I really don't think my ears are good enough to hear any tone difference between 2 exact guitars finished in nitro and poly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted September 10, 2003 Report Share Posted September 10, 2003 I can't help but notice most of the responses on this thread relate to how easy the finish is to apply, and how durable it is. If this was the only criteria we'd all be making our guitars out of fibreglass and to hell with tiresome-non-homogenous-fragile wood. The accoustics also matter, especially on accoustic(!) instruments, and this is where nitro shines. Given how much thought people put into selecting wood for it's accoustic properties I find it surprising that many people will then spray it with whatever they have to hand, often laying on obscene amounts of finish. Discuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 10, 2003 Report Share Posted September 10, 2003 well i still haven't made up my mind as to how much if any difference in sound it makes.i believe it does but i have nothing to back it up.one of my best sounding guitars is (i think)sprayed with polyuerethane,and it is a great looking durable as hell finish.nitro has the reputation of great acoustical properties but it feels sticky to me.one of these days i will find out by building identical guitars with different finishes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar_ed Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 Howdy, I have had the chance to talk to one of the folks at Gibson Acoustic, as well as some other folks who build acoustics. Most people do use poly on their guitars now, except Gibson. They use nitro. One of the big problems with nitro is the pollution requirements, because nitro contains and exhausts a lot of Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs.) Poly does not contain/exhaust a significant amount VOCs. This is one big reason why Gibson Acoustic moved to Montana. Another advantage to poly is that it can be UV cured in a matter of hours, where nitro can take weeks. This is a case where time really does equal money. According to my contact at Gibson, in the short term, the difference between nitro and poly is minimal at most. But the older the guitar gets, the bigger the difference gets, especially once checking starts. Then nitro really starts to shine. So for a test, you would really have to run the guitar through a large number of temperature cycles before any difference became apparent. Good luck and have fun Guitar Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butnut Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 Hey Ed, good to see ya here and good info. I think wood and it's finish is very critical in acoustic instruments. With electric solid bodies, where pickups and pots, caps, bridges, trems and amps, these play a big role in the tone you hear coming out of your speakers...oh yeah, speakers make a diff too. Nitro has to age a very long time to get that sweet thin almost brittle stage where it's supposed to be when it comes into play affecting the wood tone...so I heard. This may make a difference to the professional artist recording in a studio who may hear the nitro-poly diff. I don't know of any real nitro-vs-poly 'test'... I would say a freshly painted guitar (well, 2) both same wood, same weight, same electronics, necks, strings...IDENTICAL, one in nitro, one in poly..plugged into the exact same amps, would sound the same. Now, could a blindfolded musician pick out the nitro or the poly? I don't know, I would'nt know what to listen for. Will the 'better' tone be the nitro? Will they sound the same? Do you have to wait 20-30 years to hear the slightest difference? I don't know. Until there is some kind of scientific non biased documented proof, I'd say the guys who say nitro makes a big difference in the sound of an electric..probably own one. I'd love to own an old nitro electric anything...just because it's old. I'd probably rave about it's tone too. If someone has any info on a nitro vs poly test, I'd love to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted September 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 I can't help but notice most of the responses on this thread relate to how easy the finish is to apply, and how durable it is. If this was the only criteria we'd all be making our guitars out of fibreglass and to hell with tiresome-non-homogenous-fragile wood. The accoustics also matter, especially on accoustic(!) instruments, and this is where nitro shines. Given how much thought people put into selecting wood for it's accoustic properties I find it surprising that many people will then spray it with whatever they have to hand, often laying on obscene amounts of finish. Discuss Yes, on acoustic guitars there is a slight noticeable difference to my ears, and this whole post has nothing to do with acoustic guitars, only solid-body. As far as electric guitars go, I've sprayed both types and have guitars that have both types, and can't tell one bit of difference. If you say you can blindfold a person and let them listen to a guitar and they say.. Poly.. then I think your way overestimating the effects of poly on a solid-body guitar. And Butnut, as far as being biased about nitro because of owning a vintage that has it, I have alot of guitars that was sprayed with nitro that I do love but still prefer poly ones. And your not gonna find scientific data to back up the nitro claim some people make, simply because there isn't any, and because the majority of places are still wanting to make money by selling you nitro. They don't tell you that it's gonna chip off easy and that you could use an alternate method of painting. But really doesn't matter as far as I'm concerned as long as you don't put too many coats of poly on, you should not even notice a difference. Just my opinion though! Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mullmuzzler Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 My speakers are lacquered with nitro and it starting to crack so I'll use polyester lacquer on my guitar definately. The only downside is that it cannot be done at home; it has to be sprayed in the paintshop where they have painting booths and ovens and stuff. mullmuzzler | OSSMT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butnut Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Thanks for your opinion GF. My remark was more 'tongue in cheek' but seeing you have both and still like the poly finish over nitro is the first time I've heard anyone 'admit' it...kool. I guess the debate will still continue... I shoot lacqer and poly at 'home'. A paint booth would be ideal re: fumes and dust, but I only do it once in a great while and try to be considerate of my family and neighbors. Now if I were painting cars... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hand Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Nitrocellulose lacqer was invented during wwII to speed up aircraft production.Nitro will dry to the touch in less than 1min.Many a nurses uniform was used to patch control surfaces on the fighter aircraft.This was used so the bullets would pass thru rather than rip off.Laquer is a very hot type thinner thus evaporates very fast.Polyurothan is an oil based varnish thus dring takes much longer.Each system has a sanding sealer to be applied first.The sanding sealer dries more brittle and raises the grain of the wood for easy sanding.On raw wood be sure to use sanding sealer first ,for finish coat is very hard to sand and usually won't sand smooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Welcome to the forum Old Hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehle Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Yes it's better to be safe than sorry... what kind are you looking to buy at the moment? Dupont PGP? Sorry, should have answered this ages ago. I'm going to hand apply Minwax PolyU. No spray for me. Early tests show that about 4 coats leaves a nice thick coat that polishes well. Feels tough as nails! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Hand Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Thanks Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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