How Much Does Wood Efect Tone On A Solid Body

[Mickguard]

Just wait for the movie

Is it going to have a killer rabbit in it?

[rhoads56]

I know of a Luthier who has put up on his website some of his collated

data concerning various types of wood and the relation of tone and density.

In fact he's got a whole lot of other scientific and mathematical equations on stuff.

NOYCEGUITARS.COM/TECHNOTES

have a look at 'wood data' especially.

( I would have linked this , but I am just getting over technophobia )

He is getting there, much much more to go though.

[oz tradie]

I guess you only really get an understanding for it by immersing yourself in the

testing yourself.

Most of it goes over my head

[Jester700]

Wood is very important to the sound. Without the wood, the metal parts all fall to the ground in a heap, the strings lose all tension, and it's impossible to play the guitar, because your right hand is holding the bridge, while your left holds the tuners & nut - it's a real mess. ;-)

[Mickguard]

Wood is very important to the sound. Without the wood, the metal parts all fall to the ground in a heap, the strings lose all tension, and it's impossible to play the guitar, because your right hand is holding the bridge, while your left holds the tuners & nut - it's a real mess. ;-)

Not to mention the belt buckles scratches. Can't have scratches without the wood.

[Mattia]

Just because you havent seen the data posted on a public internet forum, doesnt mean a guitar maker or scientiest (or both) hasnt spend a lot of time, and/or money, researching sounds, quality, materials, glues, lacquers, etc etc etc, under controlled conditions. When someone spends a lot of money researching this type of thing to obtain a definate answer which leads to a definate repeatable result, and an advance in the marketability of said product, you can be damn sure that particular person/company isnt going to reveal that info.

Know what im saying?

My advice is to undertake this research yourself. You might surprise yourself.

Honestly, I don't see the value in conducting research into glues, finishes and similar for electrics, because I think there are too many variables to consider, and the results using empirical/guts methods have been solid until now. Any research not freely shared is of incredibly limited value, and I'm not going to give any of it ANY credence, no matter how good the final product, without peer review and the raw data at my disposal. There are plenty of folks out there building successful guitars without 'science' to back them up, quite a few building great guitars with help from the scientific method (information shared quite freely, in the acoustic guitar world), and terrible builders in both fields.

Just my 2 cents, Perry, no offence. I don't give a rats buttocks about marketability/marketingspeak, because I'm not in the game to sell.

[GuitarGuy]

Honestly, I don't see the value in conducting research into glues, finishes and similar for electrics, because I think there are too many variables to consider, and the results using empirical/guts methods have been solid until now. Any research not freely shared is of incredibly limited value, and I'm not going to give any of it ANY credence, no matter how good the final product, without peer review and the raw data at my disposal. There are plenty of folks out there building successful guitars without 'science' to back them up, quite a few building great guitars with help from the scientific method (information shared quite freely, in the acoustic guitar world), and terrible builders in both fields.

Just my 2 cents, Perry, no offence. I don't give a rats buttocks about marketability/marketingspeak, because I'm not in the game to sell.

I'm pretty sure theres a heavy dose of marketing that adds to the tone folklore. (i.e. making up stuff that sounds scientific).

[Mattia]

I'm pretty sure theres a heavy dose of marketing that adds to the tone folklore. (i.e. making up stuff that sounds scientific).

See? We do agree on some things

[Setch]

When someone spends a lot of money researching this type of thing to obtain a definate answer which leads to a definate repeatable result, and an advance in the marketability of said product, you can be damn sure that particular person/company isnt going to reveal that info.

Well, they really should, because nobody is going to know otherwise You surely don't expect people to *hear* the difference. </cynicism>

[Mickguard]

Honestly, I don't see the value in conducting research into glues, finishes and similar for electrics, because I think there are too many variables to consider,

I used to work as a health research writer. The fact that there were and are way too many variables to consider when conducting health research to make any kind of conclusion AT ALL never stopped my boss from asking--and receiving--yet more grant money. Helped me pay the bills for a few years though...

[Mattia]

Honestly, I don't see the value in conducting research into glues, finishes and similar for electrics, because I think there are too many variables to consider,

I used to work as a health research writer. The fact that there were and are way too many variables to consider when conducting health research to make any kind of conclusion AT ALL never stopped my boss from asking--and receiving--yet more grant money. Helped me pay the bills for a few years though...

Don't really agree with that; you've got lots of problems, sure, confounders, study limitations, model limitations, and causation is often a PITA to prove, yeah, but you can correct for a lot of that, and the outcome you're looking for (not perfection, but improvement to some condition or ailment, or useful diagnostic markers or tools, whatever) is pretty well defined. Drawing conclusions is difficult, but certainly possible, and research almost always opens up new avenues for...new research. Guitar building's different. With guitars, you've got things like 'taste' butting in, and one man's dream machine is another's 'yeah, sure, whatever' instrument. The fact there's precious little concensus over what constitutes the 'perfect' guitar in terms of tone, playability, feel, sustain, etc. is the heart of the 'problem'.

I ain't saying biology's simpler than guitarmaking, far from it, but there's a concerted effort by millions across the globe, spending billions per year, publishing data like there's no tomorrow on all manner of subjects, all working towards slowly but surely improving our understanding of the human machine. In guitarmaking land...not s'much. And if - like Perry's saying - it's all kept behind closed doors, one of the most valuable (if flawed) tools of all is missing: peer review. That, and the billions of dollars in research money

Edited May 18, 2006 by Mattia

[Mickguard]

With guitars, you've got things like 'taste' butting in, and one man's dream machine is another's 'yeah, sure, whatever' instrument. The fact there's precious little concensus over what constitutes the 'perfect' guitar in terms of tone, playability, feel, sustain, etc. is the heart of the 'problem'.

Actually, health research (the branch I was working in at any rate) was more like 'guitar research' than you'd think --- very little biology, loads of sociology, plenty of politics too. It has its purposes though.

Just like the 'guitar tone effect' discussion-- I actually get tons of ideas reading people's thoughts on the matter.

[Mattia]

With guitars, you've got things like 'taste' butting in, and one man's dream machine is another's 'yeah, sure, whatever' instrument. The fact there's precious little concensus over what constitutes the 'perfect' guitar in terms of tone, playability, feel, sustain, etc. is the heart of the 'problem'.

Actually, health research (the branch I was working in at any rate) was more like 'guitar research' than you'd think --- very little biology, loads of sociology, plenty of politics too. It has its purposes though.

Just like the 'guitar tone effect' discussion-- I actually get tons of ideas reading people's thoughts on the matter.

Aaah...that kind of research. Yes, that's an infinitely fluffier variety.

[Mickguard]

Aaah...that kind of research. Yes, that's an infinitely fluffier variety.

I had the perfect qualifications for the job -- I almost went to med school. Quit after my first week

[Mike Sulzer]

I think that it is important to remember that the electric guitar is the signal source in a long chain of processing, and so what is most important is how the instrument allows you to control the results of the processing. If you want to hear what matters to the sound of the guitar itself, play some through a really linear equalizer and into really good headphones (Grado, for example). If you have not done this, this you might be amazed at how small differences in guitars are really audible. But so what? These things do necessarily come through the processing chain which is very non-linear and ends with speakers that hide a lot of detail and introduce their own sound. I think one reason why pickups are so high on everyone's list of what matters is because the effects of the magnets on the strings (small to moderate string pull) really come through the processing. I do not know why.

[Mickguard]

I think that it is important to remember that the electric guitar is the signal source in a long chain of processing, and so what is most important is how the instrument allows you to control the results of the processing.

Yep, excellent point.

Yesterday I played my teacher's Aria Pro II ES-335 copy...man, I love that guitar....it's one of the best-sounding guitars I've ever heard. I'm talking about pure, clean signal, from a solid state amp (a Fender FM65). I can only imagine how great that guitar would sound through a 'real' amp...

And it's a bolt on neck matched to the Gibson scale...which breaks a few rules I imagine...

But the most important thing about that guitar is the neck --I just love to play that guitar. And maybe that's the most important part of all?

[olyen]

my friend has an epi LP special, and he hated the pickups cause they sounded muddy to him,i actually kind of like a sound with a lot of lows and didnt mind the sound,anyway, i bought the pickups from him and put them in a LP i builtwith a 1inch maple top and a mahogany back,you wouldnt believe the difference in sound,is a lot more rounded much more highs in the tone,so i guess the wood does make a difference,my 10c

[GuitarGuy]

my friend has an epi LP special, and he hated the pickups cause they sounded muddy to him,i actually kind of like a sound with a lot of lows and didnt mind the sound,anyway, i bought the pickups from him and put them in a LP i builtwith a 1inch maple top and a mahogany back,you wouldnt believe the difference in sound,is a lot more rounded much more highs in the tone,so i guess the wood does make a difference,my 10c

You're using a different amp aren't you? ........Let the debate continue!

[Mickguard]

my friend has an epi LP special, and he hated the pickups cause they sounded muddy to him,i actually kind of like a sound with a lot of lows and didnt mind the sound,anyway, i bought the pickups from him and put them in a LP i builtwith a 1inch maple top and a mahogany back,you wouldnt believe the difference in sound,is a lot more rounded much more highs in the tone,so i guess the wood does make a difference,my 10c

You're using a different amp aren't you? ........Let the debate continue!

Your neck joint might be tighter/more accurate. And those Epiphones are coated in thick shiny plastic, bet your guitar isn't. Bridge might be a different kind of metal. Wood might be plywood. Even more important, the pots in your guitar might be better quality--or you've got a different cap in there.

Etc. etc.

[Hoser Rob]

Obviously the wood affects tone a whole bunch ... at least 50% and I don't see why that's remotely controversial. An electric guitar is an acoustic guitar. It's just not very loud. The pickups can't put in what's not there in the wood. You can often improve cheap ones by putting in better pickups but you can't turn a mutt into a great guitar that way. Better to put the extra $$$ into a better guitar.

Try the following experiment: go into a guitar store with at least 3 or 4 Teles or whatever on the rack when it's quiet (I know, that can be hard to manage). Put your head near each one and rap the body with a knuckle. The one with the best and loudest sound will virtually always be the best sounding one plugged in.

[TheCross]

Try the following experiment: go into a guitar store with at least 3 or 4 Teles or whatever on the rack when it's quiet (I know, that can be hard to manage). Put your head near each one and rap the body with a knuckle. The one with the best and loudest sound will virtually always be the best sounding one plugged in.

oh, that'S the good 'ol 'good-unplugged-sound-great-plugged-in-sound' thing.... how true is that?

I really don't know the true effect of wood in the tone... the same with my fingers/technique effect on tone...

What amazes me is the effect of my Amp(Framus RubyRiot....soooo great) I really dislike my SG through a Peavey Classic 50(Fender clone, I guess y'all know that) which is a lovely amp for so many guitars but my SG sounds like crap. But through my lovely Framus clean channel it sounds sooo sweet(and everyone knows the poor acoustic skills of a SG)

pickups decide how much your fingers/technique CAN affect the tone. 'better' pups react better to your picking dynamics etc. or it is easier to sound good on a HB equipped guitar than with a SC one... cos less frequencies have to be 'controlled'

I guess the 'better' the pups are the more the changes in construction/material, technique can be heared

And stiffness of the system/its materials affects the tone because that's the point that determins how the strings can vibrate. with softer sytems the strings stop vibrating earlier cos the energy is lost in the system and taken away from the strings ->lush sound, bassy etc... and the other way around.(importance of neck joint blabla)

- my thoughts

[Guitarfrenzy]

You have your thinking cap on? Ok then,..

If we are truely going to see what degree wood has on the tone, we need to start from the beginning. I had always assumed that a pickup only picked up the string vibrations. My theory basically was that the wood vibration wasn't picked up through the pickup at all, and only after the string vibrated, which in turn vibrated the wood which accentuated some frequencies and dampened others, then the wood vibration changes the way the string vibrates, and overtones within the fundamental frequency. I think this is only partially correct now though. Here's why.

My first assumption was that if you tapped on the guitars body with the strings off, you'd get no sound out of it. I found this to be wrong, even though it's not very loud, the tapping is very audible. That disproves my first assumtion that the pickup only picked up the strings only. Although this might be adding to the sound the pickup gets, it still has to be accounted for. So your pickup is not only getting the string vibration, but the wood vibration by a very small amount. Yet, like we said before, the wood has an effect on how the string vibrates also, thus the wood has an effect on both ways the pickup recieves signal. So yes, the wood definitely has an effect on the tone. Just how much? We'll that's the debate isn't it? lol

If you don't believe the wood actually vibrates, then do this simple test. When playing your guitar without being plugged in, walk up to a wooden door thats closed, and while playing, hold the guitar so the headstock touches the door. LOUDER? It will amplify your sound, as will any other material that will vibrate. That tells us that, yes, indeed, the wood vibrates or resonates when the strings are plucked. What you'd have to do though is figure out how much wood vibration comes through the pickup, and in turn, into your amp. Tapping on the guitar isn't really a good representation of how the wood will vibrate when a string is plucked. So you'd have to compare how loud the string vibrations are coming through the pickup compared to how much wood vibration is going through the pickup. That's your assignment for today!!!! lol

Find out how to isolate the string vibration volume, from the wood vibration volume that the pickup puts out. That way you can get a rough estimate on how much wood effect the tone.

Now get to work.. or don't ask questions like this again.. haha

[rhoads56]

^^^^ fantastic start. Now add about $10,000, a couple mad scientists, and a class room full of sound engineers, a couple hundred pieces of wood, various glues, and a bunch of different blocks of metal...

[Drak]

Stevie Ray didn't need no steenkin' room full 'o space scientists to tell him what sounded good.

...All he needed was the right hat.

[thegarehanman]

I agree with drak. Doesn't anyone else think that trying to quantify something subjective, like "good tone," just sucks all of the fun out of guitar building?