Buzz Feiton

[kraut]

Hey alL

I was just wondering if anyone knew anything about this Buzz feiton tuing system. From what I can see it's just a different nut. Is that right? Has anyone put this system into any of thier guitars and if so can you really hear the difference?

[jipp]

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...;hl=Buzz+Feiton

search brought this up. INtresting read. I dont have perfect pitch. So, ill stick with the slop i guess.

chris.

[Mickguard]

So, ill stick with the slop i guess.

Hell, I prefer the slop...but I can imagine someone shredding mozart would need the perfect intonation.

[oz tradie]

The 'buzz' certainly knows his stuff. It'd be lost on me though.

I've got this little problem, whereas I tend to play perfectly tuned guitars, but seem to make good intonated notes turn bad. Every time I touch the strings to the frets it sounds like a pack of howling alley cats.

Ever heard a deaf 5 year old play the violin? similar sounding.

[Mattia]

Buzz Feiten's not done anything that luthiers haven't been doing for decades, maybe longer; compensating at both the nut and the saddle. What he HAS done that's different is come up with specific measurements/amounts to compensate by at each end, and specific amounts of 'out of tunedness' to tune said guitars to. That, and market the hell out of it.

Alternately, if you want to do some nut compensation, read this article:

http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp

[lovekraft]

Buzz Feiten's not done anything that luthiers haven't been doing for decades, maybe longer...

+1 - There are descriptions of compensated nut techniques that go back to the 19th Century. Buzz simply got a patent and mounted a clever advertising campaign. My question has always been how a system that deliberately detunes open strings can be said to make the guitar play more in tune - sounds like an oxymoron to me.

[oz tradie]

All this compensated tuning bizzo , I can understand.

The interesting thing of this is that as soon as you hit a fretted string, you're throwing alot of that hard work out the window. Especially considering that everybody plays and frets at differing pressures, and in fretting the note, there is a chance that a slight bending of the string (and I mean minescule) can throw all that out.

Again, it makes sense to compensate, but if you don't alter or adopt a better fretting technique in conjunction with the compensation, it seems to leave you back at square one.

My thoughts, is all.

[mammoth guitars]

There is also Earvana which makes a compensating nut. We tried it on a few guitars. But with a standard nut, correct fret positions and your intonation set spot on it will take someone very discriminating to notice.

[oz tradie]

There is also Earvana which makes a compensating nut.

Does the earvana utilize any other adjustments like the buzz feiten does? ie. different tuning parameters?

[GregP]

The Earvana is more in line with what luthiers have done for decades-- compensates for the known "problem" strings at the nut.

The Feiten system has a few differences, which is why he was able to patent:

1. He has done calculations on differences in tension right down to different guages of strings and possibly (haven't actually seen) even particular brands.

2. Compensates at the bridge in a slightly different way than standard-- ie. his formula will have it so that the fretted and unfretted notes are NOT exactly in-tune with each other the way we normally do it.

3. Amount of compensation at nut and bridge factors in scale length as well

4. Special tunings... what the hell is the word... tempered? which are specific to your setup. (ie. guage and scale length)

Now, keep in mind that my above points are speculation-- I've never actually taken the Feiten course, and if I had, I would have had to sign an NDA. So I can't say with absolute conviction that I'm perfectly correct; however, it's fairly reasonable to make those assumptions based on his publicly-available information.

As for how "great" it is-- really, the main factor in MY opinion is simply: how much do you play open chords? Because even without compensated nuts, you can do your own custom tempered tuning that will make open chords sound nicer. The compensation is definitely nice for open chords-- there's no doubt about it-- but if you've been happy without it, I don't imagine that it'll be the "world of difference" that many professionals claim to experience. If you're more a soloist or play up the neck, compensation won't help you that much.

Greg

[Mattia]

ALL tunings are tempered. What Feiten's patented are one specific set of compensation measurements; there are plenty (read: pretty much each one) of luthiers who compensate each instrument individually, per scale, per string guage, all that. He's just patented a specific degree of out-of-tunedness. Also, the compensation, overall, affects stuff across the entire neck, not just at the nut.

A lot has been written about compensation (including articles by Greg Byers, Mike Doolin, etc.) that covers many of the bits of theory, the why, the what to do with it, etc. What I don't like about the Feiten approach is the 'smoke and mirrors' marketing, and the somewhat outrageous costs of getting it retrofitted by authorized installers. Looking at some of the prices, I'm sure the training/certificaiton is worth it for people who make a living modding guitars and the like, but I'll stick to the freely available systems, and tune by ear (because tuners, as such, don't give me in-tunedness I like...)

[GregP]

ALL tunings are tempered.

Well... practically speaking, for a guitar, yes. You can't really fret your string without introducing discrepancies. However, there DOES exist "even tuning"... the term "tempered" is there for a reason, otherwise they'd just call it, "tuning." I suppose strictly speaking, the full name would be "even tempered tuning," but it's understood in the vernacular that simply saying "tempered tuning" is referring to NON-even. No need to be pedantic.

What Feiten's patented are one specific set of compensation measurements; there are plenty (read: pretty much each one) of luthiers who compensate each instrument individually, per scale, per string guage, all that. He's just patented a specific degree of out-of-tunedness. Also, the compensation, overall, affects stuff across the entire neck, not just at the nut.

I think you'll find it's very UNcommon for luthiers to compensate their nuts. Definitely not "pretty much each one." Someone like Perry is less common than you'd think. And yes, what I described is exactly the same thing-- that he's patented a specific degree of out-of-tunedness based on extensive quantitated measurements. I'm not saying that's a good thing-- I think it's better for a custom builder to just do it on a per-instrument basis. However, it's his reams of papers with measurements on tension, scale, and elasticity (ie. "scientific" documents) that allowed him to obtain a patent. Compensation is basically a modification to scale length in small degrees, so of course it affects the entire length of the string; however, it is used primarily to correct god-awful sounding open-position chords, where the very short distance from the nut to the point of downward pressure makes the effect noticeable. The closer you are to the middle of the string, the less effect it has-- and since you don't press down on the string anywhere near the bridge, that's why compensation is important mainly to correct open chords.

A lot has been written about compensation (including articles by Greg Byers, Mike Doolin, etc.) that covers many of the bits of theory, the why, the what to do with it, etc. What I don't like about the Feiten approach is the 'smoke and mirrors' marketing,

Damn right. It's his approach to marketing that makes people think there must be something "magical" about it, when it's really not a mystery.

and the somewhat outrageous costs of getting it retrofitted by authorized installers. Looking at some of the prices, I'm sure the training/certificaiton is worth it for people who make a living modding guitars and the like, but I'll stick to the freely available systems, and tune by ear (because tuners, as such, don't give me in-tunedness I like...)

No doubt. It's insanely expensive. As for the tuning, I think it's hugely important to tune by ear if you're playing alongside another musician (ie. a piano) which might sound odd if you try to achieve an "even" tuning. I still like tuners for my home recordings, though, since many of the other parts are sample-based and tuned to A=440 standard tuning.

Greg

[spazzyone]

would a compensated nut solve the g string problem

every tuner i have tried including a peterson strobe

sounded horrible to my ears and its always the g string

if i tune to open chords then power chords futher up the

neck sound bad and vise versa. am i just one of those

people that suffer from from a perfect pitch ear?

id really love to solve this dillema cause it drives me nuts

and yes my intonation is spot on to the peterson

thats why i always wanted to try buzzes system

i figured if Joe Satch uses it then it must work well

[mammoth guitars]

would a compensated nut solve the g string problem

every tuner i have tried including a peterson strobe

sounded horrible to my ears and its always the g string

if i tune to open chords then power chords futher up the

neck sound bad and vise versa. am i just one of those

people that suffer from from a perfect pitch ear?

id really love to solve this dillema cause it drives me nuts

and yes my intonation is spot on to the peterson

thats why i always wanted to try buzzes system

i figured if Joe Satch uses it then it must work well

You might want to try the Earvana nut first. They have a retrofit nut that does not require special tuning and it will help the G string tuning problems.

[Mattia]

Greg: When I say 'Luthiers', for the record, I do mean hand builders, and not factories (although Taylor does compensate at the nut end as well). I suspect more do it than you might think. Not everyone advertises it, a lot of people do it. In acoustic guitar land, anyway...

Either way, methinks we're on the same page ;-)

[GregP]

Mattia: I'm quite certain we are.

Spazzy: nuts like the Earvana that mammoth suggested address problems like the one you're adjusting. Earvana offers a less expensive solution because they can say, "well, it's common knowledge that the G needs to be compensated more than the rest" and then they just compensate to a more or less arbitrary (arbitrary but reasonable) amount.

So yes, even compensation without painstakingly scientifically calculated measurements should still help for the G string issue.

Greg

[kraut]

would a compensated nut solve the g string problem

every tuner i have tried including a peterson strobe

sounded horrible to my ears and its always the g string

if i tune to open chords then power chords futher up the

neck sound bad and vise versa. am i just one of those

people that suffer from from a perfect pitch ear?

id really love to solve this dillema cause it drives me nuts

and yes my intonation is spot on to the peterson

thats why i always wanted to try buzzes system

i figured if Joe Satch uses it then it must work well

Yeah What is it with G anyway?? I would be happy not to bother with compensating anything else if I could get thatstring to sound right. Up until now I have only played guitars and not looked into the science behind them. Is there an easier way to get the g string sounding right??

[Mike Sulzer]

would a compensated nut solve the g string problem

every tuner i have tried including a peterson strobe

sounded horrible to my ears and its always the g string

if i tune to open chords then power chords futher up the

neck sound bad and vise versa. am i just one of those

people that suffer from from a perfect pitch ear?

id really love to solve this dillema cause it drives me nuts

and yes my intonation is spot on to the peterson

thats why i always wanted to try buzzes system

i figured if Joe Satch uses it then it must work well

Exactly. The G string is the worst problem, both on classical and steel string guitars. You could just move the g string part of the nut a bit less than a millimeter towards the bridge, but I guess if you are going to compensate, you might as well do them all.

[GregSP]

would a compensated nut solve the g string problem

every tuner i have tried including a peterson strobe

sounded horrible to my ears and its always the g string

if i tune to open chords then power chords futher up the

neck sound bad and vise versa. am i just one of those

people that suffer from from a perfect pitch ear?

id really love to solve this dillema cause it drives me nuts

and yes my intonation is spot on to the peterson

thats why i always wanted to try buzzes system

i figured if Joe Satch uses it then it must work well

This is anecdotal, but I have a friend and former guitar teacher who is also studio musician and record producer, he has the best ears of anyone I've ever known personally. He loves Buzz Feiten tuning and had all his guitars updated.

[MP63]

Wow. Interesting reading about this system.

Will it help keeping in tune? Maybe not.

(Maybe better tuners and a good string wrapping method will do that).

Help in writing better songs? No.

Make you a better guitarist? Definitely not.

Will you hear the difference? I won't.

Now does that mean every other instrument your playing with also be "in perfect tune."?

I doubt it.

So, what's the benefit to it?

And I'm being very honest about this. Not here to slam the system.

When is it actually beneficial?

On one string only? One note? One chord?

I can't even hear my wife talking to me most of the time, so is there a system for that too?

High Definiton TV's don't make the stupid shows any better.

[Mattia]

It's not about tuning stability, quality, etc. It's about intonation, how accurately the guitar is in tune with itself. Is it for everyone? No. If you like the way your guitar plays in tune, don't bother. If you get annoyed and the out-of-tunedness inherent to the isntrument, particuarly noticeable if you do a lot of chord work at various positions up the neck (you notice that the strings don't play nice with each other), then look into it, or something like it.

[Batfink]

Well, being an 80's divebomber with Floyd's on all my guitars - well most of them anyway - i always have to live with intonation compromises just so i can go weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....thud

Jem

[spazzyone]

after looking into it i orderd a earvana just to try it out

but most of my guitars have floyds so i assume the Buzz

would be the only real solution

and Batfink why is it a compromise with the floyd

i can get a floyd to intonate perfectly

only problem i experiance are the action changes when you dump

the action raises. mine all float but they always stay in tune

and ive made my own version of an ibanez backstop but dont like it

adds way to much spring tesion

[Batfink]

Oh, i get 'em to intonate and they're all either OFR's or Schaller so they stay in tune however much i smash 'em around. But you know what it's like you hit some double stops, they never both go up exactly plus if you've hit a passing note that tends to go haywire or you try some palm muting, your knacked 'cuz you've been playing two hours already and you rest your whole weight on it - you know, the standard stuff that people always complained about floyds and no, i'm not about to go out and buy 19 Tremel-no's. If i was that bothered i wouldn't have kept using them since the mid 80's.

Jem