Anyone Try Sandwiching Multiple Woods?

[iskim86]

i wonder how it would sound?

if I layer alder, mahogany, ash, basswood, bubinga, koa, and maple and glue them all together, would the sound characteristics for each wood blend into each other? i don't think it would make much difference really, but I wouldn't know.

opinions/comments?

[Vince-o-caster]

I think they call that plywood!

[jmrentis]

I asked a similar question a week or two ago, but more along the lines of what would all those big glue joints do to the sound. And if using 3+ body piece combo would change the sound/characteristics enough to overcome any changes all those glue joints would make. I'd imagine the top makes more of a difference than whats under it, although as stated in the other thread, the woods don't make as big a difference as all the other factors involved. Another question that comes to mind for even a two piece(top and bottom, say maple cap and mahog body) if you routed the top so the bridge and pups and obviously neck were mounted to the body, how would that change the sound if at all? I still want to know how the inlayed top worked. I believe someone did this and I don't remember the outcome, anyone recall that?

[Desopolis]

im not surprised to see this one skipped over by more common posters..

I will admit that different tops/bodies/necks/fingerboards can defiantly make a difference in overall tone.

But I highly doubt you will notice to much if there is 20 layers of different exotic wood compared to 4 to 3 etc.

Many, and I should say MOST lower cost factory guitars are multiple piece bodies, glued together in irregular off cuts.

Many Musicians swear by these guitars.

Many builders use different woods as laminates for visually artistic reasons more so then audible.

Will it make a difference? a little,

but after the rest of the body, the neck, fingerboard, all the hardware, the electronics, the cable, and then of course the amp itself, will it be all that noticeable?

I think if anything, a general density will play a larger part in any sound it POSSIBLY could make. IE Swamp ash and Mahogany and Maple and Ebony..

if your wondering because you have a whole rack of off cuts, go for it.. BIG D does it, and they look weird, but in the end OK.. and I bet they dont sound half bad.

But I wouldn't suggest purchasing the different layers in some hope for something spectacular.

[tim_ado]

from very little experiance my observation would be it has mainly to do with what wood the bridge is on

am i right or just crapping on????

Edited May 21, 2007 by tim_ado

[jmrentis]

I totally agree with what you were getting at and makes sense to me. I think the other part of what the poster was asking was what difference would it make if the pieces were layed, for example say instead of a mahog body/maple cap, you had maple cap/mahog next, a layer of limba, a layer of mrytle, and finally the back was cocobolo. Like layers. As I said I mentioned something about this idea and what effect all those massive glue joints would have, would there be so much glue joints that it would just make things worse or would there still be a different characterist to the sound in any given wood combo. I know wood makes some difference, but I think having so many glue joints that big might cancel out most of the uniqueness(is that a word, lol) any wood combo might have. With all the factors that change sound, it would be very, very tough to tell the difference in a maple/mahog/coco/limba guitar vs a mrytle/redwood/purpleheart/ash guitar. Who knows though, I would love to know if someone could actually set up indentical situations, but that is so difficult that I doubt it would happen, because for all you know if could be the persons hearing that day that made the difference or lack there of. Cool question I think, as I said I asked this a week or two ago because it seemed interesting to me, but I doubt the answer will actually ever appear exactly and factually.

EDIT:Tim:from very little experiance my observation would be it has mainly to do with what woo the bridge is on

Not fully sure about that, but yeah I believe that is one factor and is why I posed this question

"Another question that comes to mind for even a two piece(top and bottom, say maple cap and mahog body) if you routed the top so the bridge and pups and obviously neck were mounted to the body, how would that change the sound if at all?"

People say maple adds snap or brightness and mahog adds warmth and such, how would the sound change if the maple was routed through and mounted on the mahog instead, would the maple still add that distinction to the sound? Would it lessen it? As I said before it just seems interesting to me(this subject). I don't, however, have any desire to really specify my wood choice based on these things, at least not in the extreme. I just find wood that looks good to me and that isn't going to be super heavy or hard to cut/carve, for body woods and tops. I can vary the sounds much more in other areas than I could by using certain wood variations, so I just go by what looks nice, lol. I like the subject though and find it quite interesting.

Edited May 21, 2007 by jmrentis

[aturner]

As per the question of multiple glue joints affecting the sound, I can't imagine it making a huge difference. Just take a look at just about any custom Alembic: you're talking about guitars and basses with 7 piece necks, plus another half dozen body laminations. The core of the original Firebirds were 9 pieces of mahogany glued together. So it's not like there isn't a precedent for nice guitars being made up of many pieces of wood glued together.

[Jon]

Sure, but those are necks, not bodies. If you layer the woods like a sandwhich (like plywood) you've got 10+ times more glue surfance than the 3/4"-13/16"ish thick neck. We are comparing that gluing surface to something that will be in the 13" - 14" range, a much much bigger glue surface. But hey, if you're using any kind of vacuum system whether it be hand pump or electric, I think it would turn out pretty cool. Although for the average guy, you're going through a lot of trouble for something so insignificant.

And there are plenty of 3 ply bodies out there - a main core wood and a top and bottom wood. Or even 5 ply with accent veneers between the top, bottom, and core woods. If you can pull off a tight glue joint, go for it.

[aturner]

Granted we are talking about bodies, but the neck does play a key role in the dynamics of the instrument. Both examples I gave are neckthroughs, so the bridge and pickups are attached to the multiple-laminate necks. You're free to disagree, but personally I don't see much difference between the two (multiple laminate neck vs multiple layered body). If you want to stick strictly to bodies, I'll go back to Alembic. They usually have a top and back plate, core wood for wings on either side of the neck, and multiple veneers between the core and top/bottom plates.

But like you mentioned, as long as the glue joint is tight it shouldn't be much of an issue, plus it looks sweet.

[Jon]

The difference is that there is more glue surface - higher margin for error for the average joe woodworker.

Here's a good example of a 5 laminate (sandwhich style) body: http://cgi.ebay.com/Yamaha-Bass-Made-in-Ja...1QQcmdZViewItem

[MiKro]

I totally agree with what you were getting at and makes sense to me. I think the other part of what the poster was asking was what difference would it make if the pieces were layed, for example say instead of a mahog body/maple cap, you had maple cap/mahog next, a layer of limba, a layer of mrytle, and finally the back was cocobolo. Like layers. As I said I mentioned something about this idea and what effect all those massive glue joints would have, would there be so much glue joints that it would just make things worse or would there still be a different characterist to the sound in any given wood combo. I know wood makes some difference, but I think having so many glue joints that big might cancel out most of the uniqueness(is that a word, lol) any wood combo might have. With all the factors that change sound, it would be very, very tough to tell the difference in a maple/mahog/coco/limba guitar vs a mrytle/redwood/purpleheart/ash guitar. Who knows though, I would love to know if someone could actually set up indentical situations, but that is so difficult that I doubt it would happen, because for all you know if could be the persons hearing that day that made the difference or lack there of. Cool question I think, as I said I asked this a week or two ago because it seemed interesting to me, but I doubt the answer will actually ever appear exactly and factually.

EDIT:Tim:from very little experiance my observation would be it has mainly to do with what woo the bridge is on

Not fully sure about that, but yeah I believe that is one factor and is why I posed this question

"Another question that comes to mind for even a two piece(top and bottom, say maple cap and mahog body) if you routed the top so the bridge and pups and obviously neck were mounted to the body, how would that change the sound if at all?"

People say maple adds snap or brightness and mahog adds warmth and such, how would the sound change if the maple was routed through and mounted on the mahog instead, would the maple still add that distinction to the sound? Would it lessen it? As I said before it just seems interesting to me(this subject). I don't, however, have any desire to really specify my wood choice based on these things, at least not in the extreme. I just find wood that looks good to me and that isn't going to be super heavy or hard to cut/carve, for body woods and tops. I can vary the sounds much more in other areas than I could by using certain wood variations, so I just go by what looks nice, lol. I like the subject though and find it quite interesting.

I think that Jerry Garcia had one made in layers. I dont have the site handy, but I know it was one of his favorites.LOL:))

mk

[another doug]

I think that Jerry Garcia had one made in layers. I dont have the site handy, but I know it was one of his favorites.LOL:))

mk

Here ya go: Jerry's guitars. Tiger, Wolf, Rosebud, and Stealy are all multiple laminations; vertical in the neck, horizontal in the body. Tiger actually has layers of brass in there too!

Jon - Alembics do have vertical laminations in the neck, but many (most?) also have horizontal laminations in the body, like this one.

I can't really help to predict what the tone of any particular "hippie sandwich" would be, but I can say that glue joints, when done properly, are not necessarily detrimental to the tone. Just my 2 cents. (edit: I'm not trying to say glue joints make no difference, just that the difference MAY not be a bad one)

[fryovanni]

i wonder how it would sound?

if I layer alder, mahogany, ash, basswood, bubinga, koa, and maple and glue them all together, would the sound characteristics for each wood blend into each other? i don't think it would make much difference really, but I wouldn't know.

opinions/comments?

To give you a simple answer. Yes, the woods charictoristics will all add up to something(it has to). Is that something you can predict? Not very well because every piece of wood will be a little different(even within a species). Glue joints a factor? Probably yes, but how much is hard to say because it depends on how well you glue them. Will grain orientation be a factor? Yes, Sound travels faster and wood is stronger with the grain as opposed to across the grain(like 5x more at opposite extreams). Can you control that? Probably not as well as with fewer pieces(so it is hard to say what difference it will add up to). In short you would make any degree of control you had with fewer pieces, less controllable with more. Forget about talking intellegently about tone in this kind of senerio(there are too many variable that you have tossed into the mix). Best stick with this or that looks cool, and you will get what you get tonally. I would challenge anyone who tells you different to back it up with predictable, reliable data.

Peace,Rich

[jmrentis]

I think that Jerry Garcia had one made in layers. I dont have the site handy, but I know it was one of his favorites.LOL:))

mk

Here ya go: Jerry's guitars. Tiger, Wolf, Rosebud, and Stealy are all multiple laminations; vertical in the neck, horizontal in the body. Tiger actually has layers of brass in there too!

Cool stuff, seems like Jerry is a sicko for wood like some of us here

Best stick with this or that looks cool, and you will get what you get tonally. I would challenge anyone who tells you different to back it up with predictable, reliable data.

Peace,Rich

Thanks Rich,

Yeah, that is how I figured it, just make what you think looks nice, as you said figuring out the difference or even worse, predicting it would be next to impossible.