biliousfrog Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I've already made a volute on one of my necks which was scarfed but it was finished in a solid colour so the join isn't obvious. The problem I have now is that I've got my rosewood neck 80% finished but I can't get the volute to look neat as it doesn't blend seemlessly between the neck & the scarfed headstock. The shape is very close to how I'd like it but the join line looks plain ugly to me as the grain is slightly different between the two pieces. Has anyone done a volute on a scarfed neck join & could you post or point me to some pictures that shows the join between it & the headstock? I'd greatly appreciate any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Thensolution is either accenting the joint and jointing with the line in the neck shaft, or doing the scarf in the headstock and learning to love backstraps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 If the shape is right, and the transition is smooth, there 'aint nothin' you can do to it The grain won't match perfectly, so like Mattia said you need to either show off the joint (contrasting veneer etc) or hide it in the headstock. You may have to chalk this upto experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biliousfrog Posted June 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 The only other solution I could think of is to make a sharper volute transition like the Martin diamond but I don't really like that style much...hey-ho, I'm sure I can live with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmrentis Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 I actually hadn't thought about this until I started glue up on mine, last week. I left the blank a little thick to make sure I could make a nice volute, then I cut, planed, and dry clamped. Only to realize this little issue would occur and even worse in my situation is I have a maple/jatoba 3 piece laminate and the very end on one of the maple lams has this little section of beautiful curl, problem is its so out of place and it looked even worse when I had to flip it over for the scarf. No biggie, much of it will be carved back during shaping, but it still won't match up well. In the future I am going to show off the area with a nice black accent line and such as this was what I wanted to do in the first place. Anyhow, this is a good point for people that haven't gotten that far yet, so they can make these decisions before getting that far, like adding accent strips or reversing the scarf and adding a back to the headstock like Mattia said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanthus Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 I'm actually going to unclamp my scarf joint today. I did it following the tutorial on the main site. My only concern is that the two pieces might not look good together, because my walnut laminate has a cool albino stripe that might not look so well when scarfed. It was fine when I was planning to do an angled headstock, but at least I get two necks out of my blank, now. Oh well, I might learn to love backstrapping and veneers and the like. I'll post a pic today, if it turns out nice and ugly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biliousfrog Posted June 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 The penny's dropped, I just had a look at one of ACG's basses & know what you meant by back strapping (I think). Rather than veneering the back of the headstock before glue-up, do it after the voute is shaped & cover that as well...Yes? If so, I'm cool with that. I've got a sycamore veneer stripe on the front edge of the headstock so a matching one on the back would work well. I've searched the boards for info on back strapping but couldn't unearth anything. Is there anything that I need to know specifically about conforming the rosewood to the headstock & volute? Can/should I steam it to get it to bend, will the added moisture effect the glue-up process, should I clamp & let settle before glue-up etc. Cheers. [EDIT] Setch to the rescue yet again: http://www.setchellguitars.co.uk/ant/blog/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanthus Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 I've had that blog post bookmarked for a bit, now. Shoulda sent it along to you, man, sorry I haven't gotten to sanding the headstock down yet, but when I do, I'll let you know how it goes. I wonder what the diameter on that sanding drum is, that's a nice diameter for a volute... In other news, I know that people sometimes use a really thin plastic veneer/laminate strip in between wood types as an accent line. I'm wondering, could one use a plastic veneer and glue it to the top of the headstock and clear over it? I wonder how it would come out, looks-wise. Reason being, I haven't gotten to sanding the headstock yet, but it looks like I'm going to be short at least 1/16" thickness. It looks like the masking tape slipped or something, the pieces are still straight, but it slipped in the "too thin" direction. I was thinking that I might make up the thickness with a piece of black plastic-type material on the front of the headstock (and possibly as backstrapping, too, I dunno how bending the plastic would work, and really I'd do it only if the volute/glue joint didn't look fantastic). It'd save me from having to paint the headstock, too Any thoughts, anyone? PS: Good thing I changed my build plans to get two blanks out of my stock, instead of one. I had a feeling that a few problems would arise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. pierce Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 I would just grab a nice headplate from LMI in your case, Xanthus, and glue that to the top of the headstock. That should more than make up for lost thickness. (Or have you already done something like this?) I don't know, I love the look of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanthus Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 I was actually thinking the same thing, and honestly, that's probably what I'll end up doing. I thought black plastic would work fine because it doesn't need grainfill/primer/color coats, and since I'm going to be doing the neck a natural finish, it'd save me prepwork. On further consideration, though, I don't think the plastic would take well to clearcoating without scuffing it up, and then it'd ruin the look of the headstock anyways. I'll probably just get a thin piece of whatever-type hardwood and follow the steps to prime and paint it, like my last one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biliousfrog Posted June 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 doesn't Gibson use fibreboard for it's headstocks? Maybe try that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmrentis Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 (edited) I've had that blog post bookmarked for a bit, now. Shoulda sent it along to you, man, sorry I haven't gotten to sanding the headstock down yet, but when I do, I'll let you know how it goes. I wonder what the diameter on that sanding drum is, that's a nice diameter for a volute... In other news, I know that people sometimes use a really thin plastic veneer/laminate strip in between wood types as an accent line. I'm wondering, could one use a plastic veneer and glue it to the top of the headstock and clear over it? I wonder how it would come out, looks-wise. Reason being, I haven't gotten to sanding the headstock yet, but it looks like I'm going to be short at least 1/16" thickness. It looks like the masking tape slipped or something, the pieces are still straight, but it slipped in the "too thin" direction. I was thinking that I might make up the thickness with a piece of black plastic-type material on the front of the headstock (and possibly as backstrapping, too, I dunno how bending the plastic would work, and really I'd do it only if the volute/glue joint didn't look fantastic). It'd save me from having to paint the headstock, too Any thoughts, anyone? PS: Good thing I changed my build plans to get two blanks out of my stock, instead of one. I had a feeling that a few problems would arise Thats unfortunate that it slipped on you during the drying. I used Setch's method when I did mine just recently and it worked very well. What I did was used a bunch of thinner pieces of masking tape, so that there was less chance of slippage if one lost grip. What kind of shape was the joint area prior to glue up? Sanded or planed? I've heard from the guys hear you can get excellent joints from freshly planed wood, so thats how I do them all now, but I wonder if the area was freshly sanded, if it could mess up how the masking tape held. No worries either way, the nice thing about woodworking is you can always find a way to fix things and better yet is you can make it look better and then say you did it on purpose, Anyhow, can't wait to see how yours turns out, sounds cool. Here is a pic of the scarf. The pic is bad and the joint hadn't really been cleaned up yet fully, but if you look closely you can see a small portion of the random curl at the joint. Much of it will be sanded away when I start carving, but it still won't match. I will probably do a veneer, my body wood is zebrawood and my local rockler just got some thinner short stock zebrawood in, so I probably do that to match the body. The only thing I was worried about is the front is a nice cocobolo veneer with a little sap wood, which matches the fretboard, I just hope it doesn't seem wierd to have those two woods on either side. Scarf joint Edited June 22, 2007 by jmrentis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 (edited) I've already made a volute on one of my necks which was scarfed but it was finished in a solid colour so the join isn't obvious. The problem I have now is that I've got my rosewood neck 80% finished but I can't get the volute to look neat as it doesn't blend seemlessly between the neck & the scarfed headstock. The shape is very close to how I'd like it but the join line looks plain ugly to me as the grain is slightly different between the two pieces. Has anyone done a volute on a scarfed neck join & could you post or point me to some pictures that shows the join between it & the headstock? I'd greatly appreciate any help. This is what I did on mine. Not perfect but it was my first neck build ever. With the maple veneer on the back, I get even grain and a smooth transition. http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL912/43163...1/254753566.jpg Edited June 22, 2007 by guitar2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 (edited) If the shape is right, and the transition is smooth, there 'aint nothin' you can do to it The grain won't match perfectly, so like Mattia said you need to either show off the joint (contrasting veneer etc) or hide it in the headstock. You may have to chalk this upto experience. Surely "ain't nothing" is a double negative meaning that there "isn't nothing" ie. is something? That Americanism always confuses the hell out of me. I agree with hiding the join behind the volute and backstrapping, and I like to backstrap even when it's not to hide a join....cosmetically they look awesome! Edited June 22, 2007 by Prostheta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biliousfrog Posted June 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Yeah it was a part of neck building that I had completely overlooked but now that I've looked into it a bit more I'm keen to get "Strapping"! I can't do the volute that I'd hoped...I was going to do an almost crescent shaped one but the scarf join would look just plain ugly, maybe if I ever you a one-piece neck. So how was the smooth curve done Setch? Was it a drum sander & fence, Belt sander or something more fancy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 I do the curve with a drum sander in the drill press and homemade fence. In the past I've used a bobbin sander and a router thicknessing jig, but the sanding drum is easier and thicknesses at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanthus Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Thats unfortunate that it slipped on you during the drying. I used Setch's method when I did mine just recently and it worked very well. What I did was used a bunch of thinner pieces of masking tape, so that there was less chance of slippage if one lost grip. What kind of shape was the joint area prior to glue up? Sanded or planed? I've heard from the guys hear you can get excellent joints from freshly planed wood, so thats how I do them all now, but I wonder if the area was freshly sanded, if it could mess up how the masking tape held. No worries either way, the nice thing about woodworking is you can always find a way to fix things and better yet is you can make it look better and then say you did it on purpose, Anyhow, can't wait to see how yours turns out, sounds cool. Here is a pic of the scarf. The pic is bad and the joint hadn't really been cleaned up yet fully, but if you look closely you can see a small portion of the random curl at the joint. Much of it will be sanded away when I start carving, but it still won't match. I will probably do a veneer, my body wood is zebrawood and my local rockler just got some thinner short stock zebrawood in, so I probably do that to match the body. The only thing I was worried about is the front is a nice cocobolo veneer with a little sap wood, which matches the fretboard, I just hope it doesn't seem wierd to have those two woods on either side. Scarf joint Yeah, the joint was sanded flat, not planed. I'm working with select few tools I've recently learned that a router is the most useful tool ever created, hahaha. I only used 2 pieces of tape, but it covered the joint completely. I thought it'd be fine, heh. Guess not. I've got a jig set up downstairs for the router to take a sliver off the top and level everything out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davee5 Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Maybe I'm too late for this, but here's my 1-time only experience w. a slight volute carve on a scarf jointed honduran mahogany neck. Mine looks fine at the glue joint as the open grain & consistent color of teh mahogany blends very very well, but the glue line on the back kind of stands out if you look hard enough. I hand carved mine with gouges my grandfather who I never knew, and who is my namesake, owned. My old man tells me I take after his ho0bbies much better than he does, so it was cool to use these tools a bit on the project. I don't have any great pictures for you, but here's what I've got as enhanced for grain contrast as I can make it. -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 (edited) Here's the end of the scarf from my Thunderbird - as you can see, a visibile scarf easily hidden by a backstrap. Unavoidable. Early half-build pic too...the volute wasn't shaped at the edges before anyone comments :-D http://www.prostheta.com/guitars/thunderbird1_7.jpg Oh, this isn't meant to be a post saying you've done anything wrong - it's a "the way it turns out" post. Now that's the other way to do it....no pretensions in trying to look like one piece of continuous wood :-D Edited June 23, 2007 by Prostheta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanthus Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 I've always wanted, if I ever made a neck like the Ibanez you posted, to take a thin strip of the middle laminate and put it in between the neck and headstock pieces, for a kinda swooshy crescent look. On a side note, since we're kinda-sorta on the topic, what's a good placement for a volute, I'm thinking the apex of the volute being directly behind the nut, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmrentis Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 (edited) I always thought right behind the nut is where it should go, but on a number I have seen, it goes a little above that, between the nut and where many headstocks expand out. Does that make any sense? Many necks stay skinny like an inch past the nut and then curve out to make the headstock wider. Between that spot and the nut is where I have been seeing them. When I first thought about it, I felt behind the nut would be perfect because you never really have the palm of your hand as high as the nut. BUT, if you make it just above the nut, then you can grip around the headstock just under where it curves out and that would work the best, easier to hold than trying to grip over the nut area. I dunno know and have been asking people myself to show their volutes to get a basic idea. I will probably go above the nut like many I've seen. I got a couple necks out of my blank so if it doesn't feel great, I can always make another and put that neck on a guitar I don't play as much. J Edited June 23, 2007 by jmrentis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biliousfrog Posted June 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 My last volute was just a little past the nut but I find that it still gets in the way when playing an F or Bb chord as my thumb is round the back of the neck. This one is a little further into the headstock. I have strapped the back of the headstock & will post a pic as soon as I get a chance. I found the rosewood to be a complete PITA to bend. It would curl up with the grain easily but getting it flexible enough to bend across it was very tricky. I tried to wetting & wrapping in foil & then heating but it would become almost rigid again by the time I had unwrapped it, put it into position & clamped it. I found the easiest method was to boil a kettle with the lid open & hold the wood over the steam. I could then transfer it to the neck much faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biliousfrog Posted June 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 I've uploaded a pic here: http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...st&p=336129 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Don't unwrap it!!! Spritz, heat, dry clamp to shape, and leave it to cool, still in the foil. If it springs back, repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davee5 Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 For my volute, which fits me great, I kept as much wood as I could in the transition area, but not directly behind the nut. For one thing my neck is already beeeeeefy, so I highly doubt the volute was necessary. For me it was more about the "I made this by hand" statement that a volute makes (or made at one point) than it was about strength. I recommend, after 1 build, that you just make it oversize and take off material until it's comfortable. You can always take more off until it fits your hands and playing style. I don't have the problems that BiliousFrog mentioned because I clearly fret those chords differently. Adjust accordingly, it's your guitar. -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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