Line 6 The Beginning Is Near

[Daniel Sorbera]

So if you guys have not heard yet, line6 is working on something new. It will have line6 digital modeling in a full tube amp (preamp/poweramp tubes) designed by Boger.

Here is a quote from a guy I know who has played one of the prototypes.

"The signal will go into a digital preamp first ,then into a 12AX7 preamp, then to a 12AX7 PI, then to 6L6 power tubes. The preamp and power sections were designed by Reinhold Bogner and will bear his name on the front. According to Line6, Bogner was looking to get into some kind of digital/analog designs. Also, at some point, Line6 will be modeling several Bogners to be released in this format. They will also offer updated sound cards for other models.

The three amps set for production are a 1X12 combo (40 watts, two 6L6's with a Vintage 30), a 2X12 combo (40 watts, two V30's) and a 100 watt head with four 6L6's. Prices will be in the $650-$800 range."

Basically it's like plugging your PODXT into a Bogner all in one package. Sounds like it could either be a flop, or the next biggest thing in guitar amps. Guess we will have to wait and see.

[Bobby]

ya fascinating, well my money is on "next biggest thing", Line 6 seem almost unable to put a foot wrong, and a succesfull meld of Analog/Digital along these lines really scratches me where I itch.

[fookgub]

Man that sounds cool, especially for the price. If it can nail a few Bogner tones, I'm buying one for sure. Hopefully they will keep it simple and concentrate on just a few really good tones instead of tossing in a billion sounds like the usually do.

EDIT: Daniel... don't you mean "formerly Godin SD"?

Edited August 17, 2007 by fookgub

[westhemann]

sounds intersting for sure

[Maiden69]

Sooo!!!! A line6 amp modeler with a tube amp at the back? I'm I the only one that sees that as a no sense? I mean unless you will feed a clean signal, no amp modeling what so ever, and use the Line6 just for the effects, then it will be OK! But then again, you can do that now with any tube amp that you like. Ain't the purpose of the Line6 or what they are famous for the amp modeling? Is Bogner going to make the tube section like a class A amp so the pure sound of the Line6 comes true???

I really don't see the point! Carvin has the same thing in the V3, and they keep their sound is true to their tube amps with the digital effects added. And with the statement provided above, this is what I think that he wants to do, just use the Line6 for effects in his amp.

[Daniel Sorbera]

Sooo!!!! A line6 amp modeler with a tube amp at the back? I'm I the only one that sees that as a no sense? I mean unless you will feed a clean signal, no amp modeling what so ever, and use the Line6 just for the effects, then it will be OK! But then again, you can do that now with any tube amp that you like. Ain't the purpose of the Line6 or what they are famous for the amp modeling? Is Bogner going to make the tube section like a class A amp so the pure sound of the Line6 comes true???

I really don't see the point! Carvin has the same thing in the V3, and they keep their sound is true to their tube amps with the digital effects added. And with the statement provided above, this is what I think that he wants to do, just use the Line6 for effects in his amp.

In theory it does sound a little silly. But in practice it makes perfect sense. A lot of people who have PODs run them into the front end of their tube amps and use the amp modeling to get different tones. I've played around with a setup like that and there is a lot of versatility in it.

[mikevirok]

I can see the points on both ends of this debate.

On the "pro" side, having a preamp section that is not based on physical tubes but the closest thing to tubes using digital modeling would bring the world of replacing preamp tubes for new tones to an end for some. Buffering the signal with tubes has been a hot topic on Line 6 forums for many years now (Institute Of Noise has been supporting all of the experimentation with Line 6 products for quite some time), and it's true that a lot of POD users have run their little bean-shaped buggers into tube sources with great results.

On the "con" side, having tubes at all in their products is starting to degrade the integrity of their original purpose when they introduced the AXsys 212 many years ago. They were all about "no tubes, all digital", and that brought me to their common user ranks very quickly. I enjoy not having to maintain tubes or worry about their fragility in certain situations. Not saying that computers can't fail either (they do). The other issue is loudness; anyone with a Line 6 amp or product knows the glee that they can obtain by not blasting their amp to get their desired tones. Throw a tube into the power-amp mix and now the whole story changes. I live in an apartment built with paper thin walls, so volume is an issue.

I don't know exactly what they will be cranking out of the Line 6 factory in the coming days & months, but I can assure you that it will be a nice piece or pieces of gear. Just don't get caught up in the hype if it's not the best for you, ya know? Try it out. Like it? Buy it! I have been telling people at the Line 6 forums the same thing, "You don't have to like every new product that Line 6 comes out with. Just stick with what works for you. They will be fine."

[westhemann]

I think it makes perfect sense....to me,for metal digital preamps sound great...but not digital power amps...so a nice smooth digital gain running through a tube power amp sounds kick ass...

yes,you can already do that by running a rackspace pod into a rackspace tube power amp...but having it in a head form just makes another option...because I think most agree heads are cooler than racks.

[Maiden69]

But you can do that already if you have a POD and any tube amp... Bogner ain't no cheap amp, and if you are going to add the Line6 name to it, well, the price just multiplied by 2.

The proposed idea of "OVERDRIVING" a tube amp with a digital devise has been done for ages, I bet you it would be a lot cheaper to buy a Tube amp (of your choice) and a POD (or any other GOOD multi effects processor) and set up your "tonal nirvana" than to buy this hybrid when it comes out!

I really don't care much about heads or rack, I got no preference, but if I had the money (and the ability to play as good as some people here) I would buy this Amp

http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?...00&CID=GPRE

And just feed it with my GNX1 to a full stack. Or just get the MTS full stack and again use the GNX1 in the loop or in fromt of it depending on what I want it to do.

I know that Drak talked about this a LOOONG time ago... about the rack systems and tube amp right before he bought the Rivera, but he owe us the results of his tonal search!!!

[Daniel Sorbera]

But you can do that already if you have a POD and any tube amp... Bogner ain't no cheap amp, and if you are going to add the Line6 name to it, well, the price just multiplied by 2.

The proposed idea of "OVERDRIVING" a tube amp with a digital devise has been done for ages, I bet you it would be a lot cheaper to buy a Tube amp (of your choice) and a POD (or any other GOOD multi effects processor) and set up your "tonal nirvana" than to buy this hybrid when it comes out!

I really don't care much about heads or rack, I got no preference, but if I had the money (and the ability to play as good as some people here) I would buy this Amp

http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?...00&CID=GPRE

And just feed it with my GNX1 to a full stack. Or just get the MTS full stack and again use the GNX1 in the loop or in fromt of it depending on what I want it to do.

I know that Drak talked about this a LOOONG time ago... about the rack systems and tube amp right before he bought the Rivera, but he owe us the results of his tonal search!!!

I see what your saying. But I still think it's a great idea for Line 6 to sell a hybrid combo with the amp pre-tuned to sound good with the modeling patches.

I'm not saying this is the end all perfect setup. But it is a smart idea for a lot of musicians that need a portable combo/head and don't want to lug around a big rack setup. Tell me it wouldn't be nice to bring one piece of gear to a gig and have tube amp dynamics with the flexibility of POD tones and effects.

[Maiden69]

I see what your saying. But I still think it's a great idea for Line 6 to sell a hybrid combo with the amp pre-tuned to sound good with the modeling patches.

See here! This is the main point! For a modeling to sound goo thru an amp, there should be no coloration of the sound. So all you really need is a good clean power amp. I don't know if there are really benefits to using tubes here, if it is a tube amp design for HiFi situations it should add no color to it. I think any good amp that will produce the sound TRUE to the input would be a great choice to back up any MOD device. And this is true to extreme volumes, since any power amp worth the money should be able to reproduce the sounds at lower levels. This is one reason I like the Carvin rack amps. Almost everybody I know that have used them for studio, DJ, say that at high volumes they still retain the clarity of the recording.

[GregP]

I think you're missing some of the opportunities this will afford. Line6's amp modeling is good, but it's not absolutely 100% responsive and authentic all the time. It would likely be a mistake if all they did is take their current algorithms and slap them in front of a squeaky-clean power amp, as you say. I'd agree, if that's the case, that it's wasted effort. But I suspect there's more to it than that, if nothing more than "voicing" the models to interact with the Bogner-supplied technology.

The incorrect underlying assumption you're making is that Line6 has already achieved the apex of modeling and now it just needs amplification. But that's not accurate, and as far as I can tell, that's not what the 2 companies are considering. If the amp models were 100% perfect, then you'd be correct. But they lack a sensitivity that might be recaptured by whatever Bogner's throwing into the mix.

I don't claim to know everything about either technology... but it should be fairly obvious that if approached a certain way (the way you're envisioning is certainly ONE approach, and a valid one, but not the only one!) interesting results could be achieved.

[Maiden69]

I know that no matter how accurate the POD gets to the real tubes it is always going to be a bit "digital". I think that the idea of using the tube amp is to give it a bit of saturation (or that break up that tubes do when overdriven) so it sounds more natural.

I don't have a tube amp to compare the sound of my GNX1 thru one to the Crate MX120R that I'm using now. But I'm sure that at least the clean sounds will improve compared to the SState one. I'm about to get one of those kits to do it myself, after that I guess that I will either become a believer or...

[GregP]

Yeah. Digital modeling is still digital. The cool thing about it is that it puts at least "reasonable hand-drawn facsimiles" of a whole storage-locker full of amps at our disposal. Since I'm just a home recordist kinda guy, that's cool to me. I'd prefer having the real things and a great recording environment, but those things will never happen. ;-)

Amplitube2 has a few models that are better than Line 6, but Line 6 (despite having much older technology) is still ahead in others. I'll be curious to see what this Bogner "mashup" will yield. You just never know-- it could be the digital modeling answer we've been waiting for. Or, it might just sound like loud digital.

The best way to know for sure is to do a double-blind. I dunno anyone who's going to go out of their way to set such a test up, but it'd be interesting to see how people react, NOT knowing that it's a "digital model".

[Maiden69]

Frank Gamble kinda did that. If you can get the Carvin DVD... which is for free, all you have to do is order it on their site, he kinda explain it a bit. He uses a digital processor run thru the tube amp I posted above. His response was that everybody has been telling him that they don't believe that the sound is not tubes.

[biliousfrog]

I've still got my Pod Pro, I use it for DI'ing into my PC but previous to that I had it in my rack, fed into a Marshall Valve (tube) power amp. Most people wrongly assume that a valve preamp is the way to go but most often it is the power amp that shapes the overall sound. The POD into a decent power amp was very versatile, the power amp offered the bulk of the sound whilst the POD gave it a different colour dependent on the patch. I personally think that people would benefit from buying a pod & plugging it into a decent amp...at least you can then shape it to suit yourself.

[westhemann]

But you can do that already if you have a POD and any tube amp

I HAVE done that...and in most amps you would have to run through the preamp,which is a totally different thing.it colors the sound immensly and makes it useless.on my mode 4 you can shut out the preamp and run straight through the power amp,but it is a solid state power amp,so no go there,and it is also a pain in the ass to do,running through the effects loop and leaving a loose cable hanging from the input.

I am afraid I don't see your objection,maiden...it is obviously a good idea...and I don't think it is intended to add power tube soak either...I think it is meant to add tube "warmth" and a little more of a prescence to the sound.

my main objection to the line 6 hd heads are the sterility of them...

... Bogner ain't no cheap amp, and if you are going to add the Line6 name to it, well, the price just multiplied by 2.

first post

The three amps set for production are a 1X12 combo (40 watts, two 6L6's with a Vintage 30), a 2X12 combo (40 watts, two V30's) and a 100 watt head with four 6L6's. Prices will be in the $650-$800 range."

[Maiden69]

My objection is the price. We know Bogner, and there is no way that he is going to put his name on a tube amp (especialy a 100W head) for the prices posted above. Not even Carvin (sorry to use them so much but they are the only ones that deal straight with the customer without having to deal with all the markups) can sell their effect loaded tube heads for those prices. Ithink that if Line6 produce their own tube power amps, then it could be priced that low. NOT with Bogner name on it.

I know what you are talking about Wes, because I have the same problem. I'm running my GNX1 in front of the pre amp for my crate. I found the loops to be way to sterile sounding. But my GNX have a selectable output mode that I can switch depending on where it is connected. if in front of a pre amp or inside an effect loop.

Like I say before, I will have to listen to it...

[Guest AlexvanderLinde]

The tube sound is already in the line6 modelers, they are "modeled" after real tube amps, so they say... it's like bypassing the poweramp section of a tube amp head and using the preamp with a seperate poweramp... makes no sense

If they need more tube warmth and more prescence, why wouldn't they program it into the modeled amp sound???

If they need a Bogner tube amp to get the Line6 sound more like real tubes, it's like admitting the line6 products sound fake. Have you seen a Line6 commercial video? They praise the hell out of that stuff.. and now they admit they need real tube sounds

It's just a commercial stunt... another way too expensive new amp IMO.

[GregP]

If they need more tube warmth and more prescence, why wouldn't they program it into the modeled amp sound???

If only it were that easy. If it was "just" a matter of programming, we would have had the "holy grail" of modeled amps long ago. Unfortunately it's a very very complex set of algorithms to work out. Line 6 is good at this stuff, but that doesn't mean it's flawless or that it came easy.

I personally don't think that completely bypassing the pre section is the way to go, either. I think that figuring out a way to have the pre and the modeling interact is the ultimate objective, no? Think outside the box-- Line6 could be cooking up a way for signal processing (the digital pre) and the tube pre to interact, based one some potentially complicated math and possibly even using 'feedback' loops-- the digital could be informed by what's happening in the tube pre, and/or vice-versa.

Think about it a different way-- different guitars plugged into the same tube amp will sound... different, right? The actual signal hitting the pre (and then the pre hitting the power...) is different depending on the guitar used, the volume generated, the frequencies manipulated with the tone knobs, etc. etc. All this does is take it to the next level by putting some intervening signal processing in front of the tube pre. I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that they're not just using stock POD tones, which would make the whole thing a rather silly exercise... they're probably taking their signal-manipulation expertise and finding ways to alter the signal hitting the tube pre.

That's the important thing here. It's not about "it's a POD into an amp." Atomic does that already. It's not about bypassing the pre and going straight to power. Vetta II does that already. Unless Line 6 are fools (and well, people HAVE made colossal blunders in this world, so you never know), they're using their knowledge of signal processing to custom-tune a guitar signal before it hits a Bogner pre.

I don't see how people are overlooking the huge possibilities here. I mean, worlds have opened up for people who have put nothing more than an active EQ/pre into their bass or guitar. How can this NOT be potentially huge for tone-shaping if you have an entire algorithm-based preamp modifying the signal before it passes to the tube pre and then tube power sections? The possibilities, if Line 6 and Bogner do it right, are huge. And by "do it right," I also mean, "avoid simply trying to copycat other amps and open up totally new tonal possibilities to customers." Though, a few of the old standbys wouldn't hurt, either.

Greg

[westhemann]

I don't find the modeling amps to sound like the originals...they are similar,but they lack charachter.I don't think you can program in tube microphonics....it's the barely audible wavelengths that tubes emit that makes them sound "warm" and "colorful" I think...

I bet it will be very interesting...I think alot of people will like the result.I will try one out myself for sure.

[WezV]

started releasing videos on youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rSglShqDw44

and a bad german translation of the specs that was put on another forum:

Spider™ valve 112

The clenched Modeling power with genuine tube achievement!

Spider valve combines the flexibility of our singular amplifier and effect Modelings with the bite and the warmth of a most significant tube amplifier. For the first time the whole Modeling specialized knowledge of LINE 6® and the tube amplifier architecture of the legendary Reinhold Bogner meet one another. Spider valve is true sound fireworks, which will provide shortly in each Studio and on each stage for tendency.

Functions:

* 40W “Class OFF” - tube amplifiers with 2x 12AX7-Vorverstärker and 2x 6L6-Leistungsröhren

* 1 x 12” - Combo with Premium Celestion® Vintage 30-Lautsprecher

* 12 amplifier models (sound components) with everything that lies between sugar-sweet “Clean” and most brutal “Insane”.

* 7 “Smart control” - effects: Tape echo, multi-TAP Delay, Sweep echo, Flanger/Chorus, Phaser, Tremolo and Reverb.

* 36 programmable memory

* Over 200 of considerable artists sounds for as good as all gitarristischen situations in life provided

* XLR direct output of the POD® 2,0 for a full Studio sound

the valve configuration suggests valve pre and power amps but who knows - getting a bit fed up with all the obvious hype though - even if i am continuing that by posting this

[fookgub]

started releasing videos on youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rSglShqDw44

That video is more obnoxious than it is revealing, but that's marketing in the modern age for ya. I'm a bit disappointed to hear the amp will be considered part of the Spider line. I'm very familiar with the Spider amps, and I absolutely hate them! I hope the valve version sounds totally different and better.

Still, it's enticing.

Edited August 23, 2007 by fookgub

[WezV]

i was surprised its gonna be a spider, never like them either and a lot of people will ignore them because of previous experiences with other spider models - if its 'the beginning' as they claim surely they should be releasing it as a completely new model - not a spider with some valves added.

i'm torn because the line 6 spider name means crap to me but bogner is a different story

[GregP]

Yeah, that video's not helpful. It DOES sound like it's just a Spider with valves. That's more like Maiden's fear and less like my "custom engineering". Also, if it's using Pod 2.0 tones, that's not even the most up-to-date of Line6's modeling technology. Sheesh!