Self-tuning Guitars Strike Again

[GregP]

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Feat...une_%20Gibson_/

It's not the first time a self-tuning guitar has been introduced. Didn't Hipshot have something cost-prohibitive at some point in time?

Too bad the Gibson item isn't available as a 3rd-party accessory. Available factory-installed on Gibson guitars only.

Greg

[Ben]

I'd love it if these self tuning devices ever came down to a price where they were easily affordable.

You know... I cant imagine that they're actually *that* complex in principle... It definitely wouldn't be easy, but I wonder if anyone could make a DIY version? You could steal some of the circuitry from an electronic tuner to make the job a lot simpler.

Hmmmm....

[Xanthus]

I'll take one, please No mention anywhere of a pricetag, though. Any educated guesses?

[GregP]

For a Les Paul Standard, only around $900 USD.

<edit: the source I was looking at was quoting for the system ONLY! Which makes sense... $900 for a USA LP Standard is already too cheap-sounding>

[Myka Guitars]

I think Gibson teamed up with Tonical for this one. Also read this article, they mention prices.

Also check out the Transperformance system.

It seems these systems aren't cheap but I imagine that they have some spendy servos and a computer.

~David

[GregP]

So, it's basically a distribution agreement, since it IS in fact available for other guitar brands, according to those articles.

Definitely Tronical; their website links to the Gibson deal press release.

The Transperformance system was the first one I ever heard of. It is certainly nifty, but also bulky and expensive. The Tronical offering is a lot sleeker as well as cheaper.

It'd be neat to hear the guitar morphing from one tuning to the other. I wonder if you could fool the servos into tuning to particular intervals in order to do pedal steel effects. Probably not, because it's likely a relatively slow and deliberate mechanism, and if it works effectively, will go lower than pitch at first and then tune up to pitch.

[crafty]

$900 is also a lot cheaper than a MusicYo Steinberger with a TransTrem.

I like how Gibson is ripping on Fender because the VG Strat doesn't have the same kind of system, yet Tronical makes a version for the Strat!

[Prostheta]

I have doubts about self-tuning systems....I bet if a note is sharp, it doesn't loosen the string below the target tone, tension the string to take up slack and then tension the tuning against the resistance of the worm gear. Hence more tuning! Not that it matters because it's automagic.

Really. All these "technological breakthroughs" and revolutionary ideas will never phase out the visceral feel of a planky Tele or a slinky LP. I am definitely on the cynical side of the fence here. Whatever next? Self-tuning strings whose molecular structure readjust to tension and pitch?

No thanks. I'm happy tuning guitars myself, and if they go out of tune i'll spend at least twenty seconds of my day putting it back where it belongs. If I want an alternate tuning, i'll buy another instrument for it, which is probably cheaper than the price of buying a tuning system which is more likely to go wrong than a set of good quality tuners. Also - what about musicians who tune to attack and not the dwell?

Nice in theory, and great that somebody has done a proof of concept. Perhaps it will help somebody feel better about themselves if they can't get their brains around tuning an instrument. I for one do not like constantly retuning an instrument from pitch to pitch, restretching strings from tension to tension and ignoring the setup the instrument has been given.

Sorry about the rant. I think Gibson should spend more time and money on quality control instead of snakeoil "technology" like this crap.

[GregP]

We'll have to disagree for the first time.

It's not snake oil, even though it's technology. Not everybody really wants to buy additional guitars, lug them around to gigs (not just live, but session gigs, for example) and spend their clients' money retuning their guitars. Tuning guitars isn't fun. For the price, I can handle tuning my own... but that's just saying, "Nah, it's not worth $900." That's not saying that as a concept it's completely crap.

The feel of the guitar doesn't change, so I don't understand the second paragraph. It's just a tuner. I don't think they make a tele version yet (though, an enterprising person might be able to retrofit the strat version themselves), but in any event, the guitar itself doesn't lose its planky or slinky feel. That's a non-issue. The Les Paul in particular still has a stop tailpiece and TOM, same as it always has. The nut is the same. The instrument isn't really changed. !

And the leap from, "Hands free tuning via servos" to strings whose molecular structure readjusts is quite a huge one. One is just a practical reality, already proven not just as a concept but as a product. The other is science fiction.

It's also not about shunting "responsibility" for tuning. Who doesn't know how to tune their instrument? It's about facilitating it. For less money, I bet more people would be on it. I tend to tune by ear because it's convenient for me, but a lot of people (especially for gigs) will rely on a machine anyhow, and scramble to mute their instrument, squint at a stompbox or rack-mounted tuner, and rush to tune quickly so as to not interrupt the flow of their set. It's not that they don't know how to tune, it's that using a tuning machine makes things quicker for them. How can anything possibly be wrong with making it even quicker? Whether it's a servo moving the machine-heads or your fingers, to match the electronic/analog tuner's readout, what difference?

Facilitating tuning can't possibly be seen as sucking the soul out of guitar... it's just a mundane task that's being automated for people who would find it convenient or useful. I'm one of them. Just not for $900.

The founder and the actual company itself (tronical) seem like an OK bunch, and they're not seemingly out to ONLY stockpile cash, though nobody goes into business expecting to NOT make money. He's even an actual guitar player and busts out some mean licks. I might agree that Gibson should put more effort into quality control, but I hardly think that they've neglected it for the sake of integrating Tronica's tuning technology.

[Prostheta]

Sorry Greg - the second paragraph was more in the direction of "new guitar tech" trying to replace the wheel. Of course it shouldn't make guitars feel different....I do tend to stretch analogies to extremes a lot in order to illustrate points, as opposed to bringing to new ones to the fore!

I guess it have it in my craw that another part of my instrument that I regard as something I feel (tuning up, stretching in and maintaining) is being taken away or reduced. For example, my Explorers are set up for different gauges, differents tunings. I bring strings up to tune and only very rarely do they ever go out of tune by more than a few cents once up to pitch, stretched in and played a little. My Ibanez S1670FM maintains pitch consistently if it's strung and stretched correctly. I can feel when a string is (whether really feeling it, or just confident via experience) stretched in and playing up to standard. I have a personal relationship with my instruments and each one is familiar with it's particular eccentricities and needs. I'd rather not introduce a device which would start to question my familiarity and touch with an instrument by taking tuning etc. into it's own hands....

The battery lasts for two hundred tunings apparently. That would be thirty-fifty sets of strings for me on average. I would only trust such a device to bring strings near to pitch when restringing, and then i'd maintain the instrument on a personal level myself, fine-tuning and all. Perhaps a retuning instrument would be useful as a one-off, but I can't see these changing the way people tune and maintain their instruments. Waverley's ain't going out of the door yet, and they're low-tech!!

Maybe Gibbon should invest some money by integrating some PG technology!

[GregP]

Heh, investing in PG could only mean eebil, as we become corporate lackeys.

I guess I just don't see the technolgy as anything but "extravagent." You can manually tune your guitar if you want after the device is installed. Even "fine tuning maintenance" I really don't mind pressing a button and letting it get to pitch. If I hear that the machine has tuned the B right on pitch and I prefer it a weeeee bit flat to facilitate chords, I'll just tweak it. But going to alternate tunings is another feature that I think is pretty cool... not so easily done as "maintenance tuning."

My guitars go out of tune more than I'd like... and that's on a guitar with a graph-tech nut, straight string-pull, and a Tone-Pros TOM+tailpiece setup. That doesn't mean "all the time," but more than I'd prefer. I don't mind the thought of just pressing a button, strumming, and having it be in-tune. To me, that's not disconnecting me from the guitar. The feel of the guitar is the same, and it's the playing that's important. I already know how to tune a guitar either by ear or with an electronic/analog tuner. I usually use a tuning fork that's A=440 and go from there. But I don't get any special kicks out of tuning my guitar, and it doesn't make me bond with the instrument. I just want to play. So if that's automated for me, I really don't mind.

The product isn't about fixing what isn't broken. It's about fixing what IS broken. They rightfully talk about stage performance or other performance-related needs (such as alternating between standard and down-half-step ("Hendrix" they call it) tuning)... and that *IS* a "hurt" that many people would like to see "healed." Emergency string changes, tuning 'touch-ups' between songs, changing to different tunings (Drop-D being another one of them... it's easy as heck to go in and out of Drop-D, so maybe not the best example...)-- these are all things that no guitarist in his right mind wouldn't be glad to have 'taken care of' automatically in a live situation.

For bedroom players like me, it's a gadget. A cool one, but not a $900 one. Bottom line, though, the soul of the guitar is not in twisting its tuning machine heads, but in making sound with the strings. Trivial technology or not, it's still not the same thing as voodoo or snake oil, it's just... extravagent.

Greg

[crafty]

Honestly, what is all this bitching about? It's a system that doesn't require any major modification to the instrument, it's completely by-passable, and it appears to work well. Prior choices have been the unelegant Transpeformance system that requires major guitar surgery, Hipshot's expensive mechanical transposing system, and Steinberger's clunky and junky TransTrem.

I'd love to have this system just for the gig factor. Never having to tune again plus the ability to transpose on the fly without having to hack apart my guitars? Awesome.

[Jon]

I'm with Prostheta on this one. It takes me 20 seconds or less to tune my basses if all the strings are out of tune (always a few cents) and I have never run into an occasion where all the strings are out of tune mid-set, always a single string. I know my basses well and I know the musicians around me very well, I know when I'm out of tune and how to fix it quickly before it becomes an issue. Not to mention changing tunings on the fly may be a part of the set, song, or jam occasion. Congrats to Gibson and Tonical for the technology, but I don't see any price justifiable for something I can do myself (and would prefer to do myself).

[GregP]

I definitely don't "prefer" to do it myself. That's odd talk from my perspective, since I get no special pleasure out of tuning. I think there IS a justifiable price point, but $900 isn't it. 20 seconds is a pretty long time to tune. It doesn't accomodate alternate tunings. And bass in general tends to be more stable in tuning (once tuned) than a guitar on which a lead guitarist is wreaking havoc.

How can this be a bad thing? I mean... I prefer manual transmission cars, because I feel more connected with the car and the road-- I have to make decisions about shifting gears that actually impact the driving experience. So, to me, automatic cars are pointless and counter-productive to good driving. But this is something completely different... there's no enhanced experience in tuning your instrument that I can think of. And if you truly "enjoy" tuning, I have some white robes with buckles for you.

I think most of the enlightened people on this forum agree that technology such as CNC isn't inherently eebil, even though some people still choose to not use it. Isn't this just the same? Automating and speeding up a process that not all people enjoy so that they can get on with the part that they actually like? That's just one example. There are many. It just seems strange to me that there could be any other approach than, "It's a tool that has obvious uses, and you can either pay for the convenience or not." I don't think it's a must-have. Not even close. That's never been my point. People have been fine without this technology for decades. But it has utility that can't be overlooked, and it's backwards to appreciate technology's "shortcuts" in some areas and not others. I'm just saying that to argue "against" it strikes me as a strange reaction for something that you can take or leave, but which is still a nifty and useful technology.

Greg

[Jon]

20 seconds is a pretty long time to tune.

Don't forget I have more strings to tune than you.

[Prostheta]

Hahahah ;-)

The opinions are my own, and just the way I feel about this thing to be honest. I know that some people will get more use out of it in a practical sense, but i'm too stuck in my ways for somebody to invent me a new wheel. In fact, i'll be the first to dust of my pitchfork and light up the torch to chase these heretics off my garden path! Yo Crafty - this isn't bitching, it's just discourse tainted by my usual lowbrow brand of cynicism and sarcasm in the light of modern technology and advances in guitar doohickery. I hope that this system works out for some people. Shame it was Gibson, and shame they put it through the marketing machine....

Back to a practical question on this machine: if your strings are in Standard E and you get it to detune to Standard Eb, does it tune down past Eb and back up to tension the worm gears (which I presume the tuners will still use...) or will the strings stretch flat slightly as soon as you start playing?

"Floyd Rose"

*cough*

[GregP]

I couldn't say, but you could probably contact Tronica. The video seems to show them going flat before tuning back up to pitch... the guy's a guitarist, and I suspect that he'd want it done in a guitarist way. But that's just because I give smart people credit for being smart... he might be one of those smartie types who overlooked the obvious. Only way to tell is to contact'im.

Jon:

[westhemann]

It takes me 20 seconds or less to tune my basses if all the strings are out of tune (always a few cents) and I have never run into an occasion where all the strings are out of tune mid-set, always a single string. I know my basses well and I know the musicians around me very well, I know when I'm out of tune and how to fix it quickly before it becomes an issue.

yeah,but if a bassist goes out of tune,how can you tell?

[marksound]

I just have this vision of a bunch of people making big money who can't write, can't sing, can't play, and now can't even tune a guitar.

Wait, we have that now. It's called rap.

[Prostheta]

Oh no....please say it's not so....I thought this was an invention for guitarists....

[crafty]

I just wanna play "Summer Nights" without having to buy a vintage Steinberger for 3 to 5 bills!

[Prostheta]

Off "Grease"?

[GregP]

LoL

[crafty]

Off "Grease"?

**** you!

No, off "5150"

[westhemann]

I think that is "summer lovin'"

summer lovin,happened so fast

summer lovin,had me a blaaaast