Dirge for november Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 But seriously, I agree the design doesn't flow alround, but some minor changes might make for something very interesting. Somehow I find the design a bit cute not exactly sexy. I'm studying design and engineering, and can tell you that a lot of extremely ugly things go at extremely high Hmmm....design student. Well there is taste, and then there is function. Don't they teach in design school function...I mean, you can make a bad coffee cup, but anyone who designs a leaking kettle or a coffee cup that dribles down your shirt front every time you take a sip will either soon be calling themselves and "performance artist", unemployed, or both! (although, maybe you'd be snapped up by the gibson guitar team for their new innovative desings for the new century!). ... Cursed... Yeah, I personally always work with form follows function. Could you tell what is actually ergonomically wrong beside the balance? Does it slide from the knee? etc. If I ever decide to "redesign" this bird I'll definetely improve it, I can just see what it "could have been" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Ah..well, while John reconsiders his options and the northern winter begs this creation towards the fires...let's go back to one of the most influential moments in history...for a moment...1066 1066: defeat under the banner of the Corvus The Battle of Stamford Bridge took place at the village of Stamford Bridge, East Riding of Yorkshire in England on 25 September 1066. This was shortly after an invading Norwegian army under King Harald Hardråde (Old Norse: Haraldr harðráði) defeated the army of the northern earls Edwin of Mercia and Morcar of Northumbria at the Battle of Fulford two miles south of York. After a lengthy forced march up to Stamford Bridge that took place in just four days, King Harold Godwinson of England caught Harald's force by surprise, which meant that the soldiers were unarmoured. After a stubborn battle, the majority of the Norwegians were killed along with Harald Hardråde and Earl Tostig, Harold's brother. Harald’s pennant was that of the corvus on a yellow background. Upon the death of Harald, the kings own brother Earl Tostig raised it only to be himself struck down. Invincible as the invading forces may have seemed, and far outnumbering their defending opponents, it is perhaps another instance of the cursed corvus design that was their undoing. The same army only weeks later was defeated (now tainted by the covus curse) at the Battle of Hastings by a force under a different banner but of lesser strength. It is much speculated had the raven not been flown, would England now be under the rule of the Vikings and all history would have been changed with perhaps America too most likely ruled by Norseman. Yet, despite the curse, there are some who continue to tempt fate by flying high the banner of the corvus unto their doom (see: Gibson Failures, Also: Avenger63) Yes...that's right...more curses! ... If I ever decide to "redesign" this bird I'll definetely improve it, I can just see what it "could have been" Hmmm...lets see, could have been a battle axe, could have had bristles attached for a broom, could have been a comedy oversized cooking utensil...but really, should it ever have been? I think not! It was a monumental failure, a guitar that was never desired by, nor had any features of public value. Gibson were already sitting on some monumental designs...the V and Explorer for instance that suited some of the metal hair bands of the mid eighties and could have been modernized with trems and such to compete with the super strats...but also the Les Paul that would soon reclaim the thrown of the stadium rockers (but only when they decided to go back to making them like they used to in the first place) Ask yourself...who and what were they designing this for. What music did they see emanating from it, what kind of musician did they see appearing on MTV with one of these. Advertisements of the time showed a rocker in rolled up T...looking the other way while playing it and using the left had to hold the guitar up with no support from the strap hanging loosely from his shoulder! There are plenty of design faults, just an excuse to be "different" without a purpose market or the slightest consideration of what it was intended to do. It completely misses the compactness of a steinberger (its hollow carbon headless neck allowing balance) if that's what was in their mind...instead they put on an ugly 6 in line and bolt on neck (on one model 3 single coils and a fender selector...why didn't they just make a strat copy and be done with it becuase nothing was going to get a mark knophler to play it(dire straits being a major influence for fender guitars at the time). Balance, compounding the neck heavy nature and poor centre of gravity by inexplicably cutting out a chunk in the rear, only making it so much worse (you'd want more weight back there surely to compensate for the lack of forward body)...why, well presumably some drug addled gibson design exec thought it looked like a crow! More like a crock of **** if you ask me! Lack of lower body makes it sit low on the knee, a fault found in the almost (yet less design faults) of the Moderne...but then back in '58 gibson still had some wits about them and never put the thing into production for that reason...but lo, they released the modern at the same time as this monstrosity in the mid-80's...need I go on...perhaps I do have a need, if you are being swayed by this...thing! Yeah, I personally always work with form follows function. Well there are some important lessons to be learned here...the first one is not to start with fundamentally flawed design and try and "fix it"...take good functional principles and work from them. "Different" (but not ugly) is all very well, but the trick of good design is to make differences while still maintaining function...and doing so in something that is "desirable" by the market, your peers, or just not butt ugly and an insult to the function... But am I alone...let's see what some experts have to say.... Gibson had been suffering from more that a decade of 'fender-envy' and poor quality conrol when they came up with this thing ~ here's a quote from the book "totally guitar" (tony bacon/dave hunter) (p434)... During the 1980's Gibson continued to to attempt to update it's image, as it had during the previous decade, but in the process coming up with some wildly inappropriate designs - none more so than the ugly Covus line of 1982. The Corvus was available (though largely unpurchased) with one, two or three pickups, and had a peculiar body shaped like a misguided can-opener. While it would be kind to say that other companies were trying odd-shaped guitars at this time, the Corvus models must be some of the most pointless guitars ever created. These two were gone from the Gibson Pricelist by 1984. There see...utterly pointless...and a shocking cynical attempt to create something in utter disrespect to their customers, musicians, guitar fans and the whole of mankind...a scourge on the soul of all decent folk...appearing only in GH as a joke...it should never be allowed to see the light of day...judgment day is coming and the Corvus will be used in evidence against us all... ... Other than that it is a fine piece of lutherie! I bet if you worked real hard, you could morph it into some vaguely strat or LP shape to correct it...but that's hardly the point...the point is that it's pointless and goes beyond bad taste into heretical territory...a curse upon the Corvus. Why does this thread keep coming forward without any progress! I'm going to need help I see to tramp the earth down on the grave of this one, I can see that! pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge for november Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Sheesh you should do politics!... Thanks for all the positive vibes! (and the info) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
komodo Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Being in design myself, true 'good design' (and that which they DO teach in school) is to use form AND function equally, neither at the expense of the other. Both should be used to create the most harmonious design while using the least elements possible, and each element critical to the end design (ie. you shouldn't be able to take one element away without the design failing - everything is justified). It should look natural and effortless and just "right". Hopefully it creates clarity and enlightenment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 13-11 Not including this post, Pete's comments trying to dissuade me from making this outnumber my comments 13-11. This one bring it up to 13-12, but I'm sure he'll bury me before too long. I don't deny for one second that the guitar looks silly. That's part of the point in making it. I think what I'll do to help combat the imbalance is put the neck as far into the body as possible. This MIGHT necessitate altering the trebel part of the "cutaway", but that's yet to be determined. If I can get away with not altering it, I will. I have really long fingers, so it might not be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 You are only making it worse...did I mention the pickguard cracking position of the output jack, no it is so hard to put forward all the faults... What it should be called is the "Vomica" which is of course latin for cursed! Being in design myself, true 'good design' (and that which they DO teach in school) is to use form AND function equally, neither at the expense of the other. Both should be used to create the most harmonious design while using the least elements possible, and each element critical to the end design (ie. you shouldn't be able to take one element away without the design failing - everything is justified). It should look natural and effortless and just "right". Hopefully it creates clarity and enlightenment. Generally true of modern design, however fans of the baroque era may disagree. However, there are no redeeming factors to this thing. So...has anyone got any actual good features of the thing (other than it is still vaguely playable in the privacy of your own home with a paper bag over your head and you hide it well, destroy it before your death and never tell anyone)? Perhaps it's purpose here is to define a good functioning guitar by it's polar opposite...but I think that is a stretching it a little, after all a melting icecream cone would suffice to proclaim in dadaesque style...this is not a guitar! pete (and it's not politics, it's just common sense!...hehee) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge for november Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 @Komodo, I agree on that, and so will probably all the schools out there. Even though they will, they differ in results big time. In my case form follows function doesn't mean I discard the design, but to fuse the design and function. Personally I'm negative on designs that look flashy yet don't function because of some of the design aspects. All in all I think we agree. Except that basically I'm cutting myself by this comment, because the canopener is regarded as a non functional "ugly" design. Pete asks for good features on the thing. There are two features that come to mind: Firstly, it just stuck in my mind since the first time I saw it (of course strengthened by all the negative remarks). Secondly I think it shows an interesting fusion of vintage and modern. (don't nag me on the terms, I'm not into terms and I know modern doesn't mean the same as most people would think). Basically what I tried to do on my first design. (though I must agree that my design is sexier (just joking)). (my design) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Oh...how beautiful...let me count the ways... Seriously, there are a lot of really neat and aesthetically beautiful in what you have done here. Although the rear lower scooped half is a little tricky to see here, it could be seen as not only "different" aesthetically but might also could serve a number of purposes. (jack socket placement, right leg support cutaway for a more classical posture, etc) but it doesn't "detract" from it and brings about some asymmetrical lines that is echoed by the 6 in line head. The maple neck and fingerboard is echoed in the "racing stripes" of the body build and makes a feature of a multi part body blank without a lot of fancy timber grain...and the smooth sexy comfy rounded over contours makes a refreshing change that makes you want to hold it, yet dispenses with fussy and costly binding and such. The only thing that I personally would change, but just a personal thing, would be to add a third master control knob near the bridge pickup where I can reach it...but that's me, others would like this kind of thing out of the way of the strumming hand, so not a criticism but a preference. It's a great example of marrying a typical fender element of the 6 in line headstock which suggests forward momentum (while retaining advantages like straight string pool, timber economy, etc) but not ignoring this 'movement' in the adjustment of a vaguely familiar LP shape that is chronically symmetrical by adjusting this too! Fender also had such an eye for design in their general asymmetrical shapes combined with this type of headstock. ... On the corvus several fender elements were used but without the eye! Fender introduced the idea of having almost all the electronics on a strat being done separately and installed onto the body to ease manufacturing and costs. However, he used his eye to make the scratchplate flow with the design and contours, and made a metal separate jack cup acknowledging that people will step on their guitar leads (which would snap instantly this pickguard assembly) and to prevent a couple of inches of straight lead sticking out the face of the guitar interfering with it's function in performance. Not on this design however...gibson just seems to have ignored such things, or just didn't care for the sake of even easier component manufacture. Let's see, what else is wrong with this...ummm...the lower body is reasonably large, yet the upper body is cut back to provide little right arm support (that could have at least helped to aid in the neck heavy nature of the design)...but let's look at the...ummm..."player" as presented by gibson... HAHAHA... 'I'm just an oiled up actor with a tight perm, but even I can't look, I'll try concentrating on my bicep. God it's a strain holding this up, I can see why they wanted someone with muscles, are these wires supposed to bend like this, I have to do this to stop it nose diving into the ground'..."no, I can't get my right arm any lower to hide how the guitar strap is twisting...this isn't all oil you know, I'm actually starting to sweat...are you sure that this lighting will hide my face!" If there is one design feature that this playing pic that shows off a 'feature' is that those players with a bit more of a belly than a fender could accommodate in their back carve...this design allows your belly to be supported and hang over the upper body swoop...but so far, that appears to be the only functional comment on this that I've read so far. SO...there, I'm not just negative...I just found something functional in the thing! pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge for november Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 In case your remarks on my guitar where not sarcastic, thanks! You're right on placement of the volume, it's one of the things I would do different on the next build. While doing the design I was still learning the basics of playing. Another positive side on my rear cutaway is that I'm a wheelchair user. Usually the wheel keeps me from getting the guitar close to my body. The cutaway helps a bit. To spam this topic one last time: These two pics make the guitar look darker then it actually is. Ontopic, That pic of the guy holding the guitar def. shows it's limitations, design as well as function. For fun I think I'll play around with the design a bit anyway. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 No...I wasn't being sarcastic...I'm Australian, everything comes out that way! The cutaway accommodating a wheelchair only makes it so much better! But...johns been away for a bit... I'm back from our anniversary getaway. We took a weekend trip last year as well, ans we're seeing the beginnings of a dangerous trend. Last year, we went to Louisville, Kentucky. They were hit with the worst snow storm they've had in 50 years. This year, we went to Cape Girardeau, Missouri. Their neighboring town of Jackson was hit with a tornado, while Cape was under orders to duck & cover. Next year, instead of looking for small towns with weekend tourism capabilities, we're going to look for a town we thing should be wiped off the map. John, I think your anniversary getaway is only further supporting Pete's Corvus Chaos theory More Corvus curses? For fun I think I'll play around with the design a bit anyway. I'm only writing these things because I care...I imagine if confined to the "virtual world" there's little harm to be had...we all have our dirty little secrets! I even like the aesthetics of some things that put form over function...but I don't think that was the motive for the corvus design. I quite like fins on cars, art deco touches, gargoyles on the rain pipes...I even appreciate irony and especially playfulness in an object. Last night I dreamed about what kind of 'form' would be more pointless in a guitar...I kept coming back to something that looked like a bicycle wheel with a neck attached with "tuned" spokes and the advantage of wheeling it away...or riding it home unicycle style from a gig! But I'm sure the members of PG will be able to match the corvus one way or another. Here's my attempt to "think outside the box" and built almost entirely as design exercise...a tiny mandolin sized practice instrument for the car with no cost... pete... I wonder if I should use a different font to indicate sarcasim....heheehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge for november Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I dig the allen head tuners That thing looks fun! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 hahahaha...let's hijack the thread! See...I set some design parameters and tried to get a form that worked...no cost, able to fit under the drivers seat and not stick out the window to play it...and no costs...so I had to come up with ways of tuning it, make it acoustic to avoid an amp...even the frets are coat hanger wires, the finish is shoe polish!...does it sound any good...nope! However, as a design exercise it was a success for what it was intended to do. Quite what the corvus was intended to do is anyone's guess! At least mine is crow like black! B) PS: I know John loves the attention! Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 :D PS: I know John loves the attention! Pete Who... me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Buddy, you like ripping on this thing as much as I like reading your rants. Don't pretend this is anything other than a symbiotic relationship. Of course, you're taking the role of the parasite to my host organism... :D B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Just trying to save the world one post at a time so as to distract you from actually building the thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadovfor Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Just trying to save the world one post at a time so as to distract you from actually building the thing! And you know the sad thing Pete ... your efforts will go unrecognised and unrewarded. Nelson Mandela, Mother Theresa? Sure ... c'mon up and grap yourselves a Nobel Peace Prize. Kofi Annan, the Dalai Lama?? C'mon up as well ... there's prizes for you too!!! But Pete ... saving the world from John's Corvus?!? Nothing!!!!!! Where's the justice?!? Who is making the bigger contribution here!?!?!? The world has gone mad I tells ya!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I think you are right of course...but I think I will work further on my guitar unicycle, body from a wheel with mojo infused "tuned" spokes from last night's dreams...perhaps making something yet more pointless may lift the corvus curse somewhat... And all those people...Mandela, Lama, Annan, Nobel...what did they ever do for guitar design pete still...in all honesty, I have seen a lot worse one off "seemed like a good idea at the time" designs both here and elsewhere...the difference is they are not major companies foisting it onto an unsuspecting public. And to John's credit, he is going to be painting the thing a reflective safety "do not touch, don't even come near" vintage correct orange as a warning. And I hope you can see my point in this pic... You can't even pay a model to look at the thing...turning away, and closing his eyes (you can tell by the look of shame on his face that he is doing a bad thing here) to the horror that is the Corvus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 The world has gone mad I tells ya!!!! And I shall help it along, one ridiculous guitar at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge for november Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 @ PSW, the fact that you knew the Corvus and I didn't shows you know more guitars. Could you make me a list of (regardless of succes/failure) strange yet intersting guitars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 If Joe Dirt played a guitar,it would be a corvus... The corvus is to a guitar what Joe Dirt's "meteor" is to a real meteor.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
komodo Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 If this thing is built, there should be a restriction as to what can actually be played on it. It'll have to be only stuff like "Summer of 69" by Bryan Adams, and other such 80's nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 If this thing is built, there should be a restriction as to what can actually be played on it. It'll have to be only stuff like "Summer of 69" by Bryan Adams, and other such 80's nonsense. Whaddya mean IF it's built? Oh, it's getting built... ooooohhh yeaaaa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 And speaking of which... Now I gotta make the body blank. I think I'll give a couple of lumber yards a call and see if they have any 8/4 clear pine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I just talked with a couple of local yards and clear pine is about as expensive as maple & ash. HOWEVER... one of them has 8/4 poplar for $3/BF. WOO-HOO!!!!! I'll be back in a few hours..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 What's wrong with knotty pine, it burn's just as good...hang on, I think I see the "crow" now...nope, still looks like crap! @ PSW, the fact that you knew the Corvus and I didn't shows you know more guitars. Could you make me a list of (regardless of succes/failure) strange yet intersting guitars? What...and encourage john...well, with this headstock,just about anything from the 80's...reversed if you put socks down your lycra dacks...but how about an Ovation Breadwinner...then it would be all praise (till the neck fell off)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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