Neck-through Help

[mrhahajones]

Hey, I'm new to the forum here and just had a quick question.

So I'm taking a guitar building class for college and was thinking about doing a neck-through Les Paul.

This is my first build, so I don't know much about the tonewoods. I was thinking about doing a maple (with maybe another type of wood laminate) neck with a macassar ebony fretboard, mahogany body wings, and a quilted maple top.

Now, would the maple neck and top get rid of some of the "muddiness" associated with Les Pauls, or would the choice of body wings not even affect the tone that much?

[Woodenspoke]

I am still getting over the fact there is a college class for guitar building...

Your design sense is apples and oranges as I find the LP tone nice and warm not muddy. Choice of pickups would have a more drimatic effect than your choice of woods like using single coils. But if you feel maple is brighter then yes it would...

welcome to the forum

[westhemann]

It isn't the wood that makes the LP muddy,rather it is the poor choice of pickups Gibson chooses to use.

Get an LP studio with a JB in the bridge and a 59 at the neck,or an 81/85 combo if you like high gain rock/metal,and I doubt the word "muddy" would ever cross your mind again.

[WezV]

very true

and it would be hard to make a maple through neck guitar sounds muddy... infact what you describe is pretty much spot on for a yamaha SG2000, which is a great sounding guitar

[B. Aaron]

Actually, in some Les Pauls (copies, mostly) the wood CAN push the tone into a darker direction. Not the nice Gibson ones so much, but rather ones that say things like "Epiphone" or "Ibanez" or "LTD" on their headstocks: many of those guitars have a flame maple veneer bent over an otherwise all-mahogany body, which lets them say "maple top" in the sales brochure without going to the trouble of actually having a 5/8" thick top laminated on there. (They also rarely have "genuine" Mahogany bodies - it's usually a wood that's merely nicknamed mahogany, such as Agathis or Sipo.) In a case like that, you're basically playing a mahogany guitar without any tone-brightening maple to speak of.

On a related note, an ESP Eclipse (their LP copy, and I'm talking about the JAPANESE ones, not the Korean ones), has a flame maple veneer over a solid plain maple top. You can't see this in the pickup cavities because they hide it there, but if you pull the bridge/tailpiece bushings out of the body you can clearly see all the layers: thick clear coat, thin transparent color coat, 1mm flame maple veneer, a thin glue line, the plain maple cap, and mahogany down at the bottom of the hole.

In regards to your build in particular: With a maple top and a maple neck-thru, your bridge probably won't make much contact with the mahogany (if any at all). I don't think you're going to have any problems with mud in your tone.

Edited April 3, 2010 by B. Aaron

[WezV]

wes mentioned studios, which are solid mahogany.

and there are many solid mahogany guitars out there, made a fair few myself ... and this alone does not make them muddy

mahogany does have a bassier natural tone but dont blame the mahogany for the mud

[mrhahajones]

I am still getting over the fact there is a college class for guitar building...

Your design sense is apples and oranges as I find the LP tone nice and warm not muddy. Choice of pickups would have a more drimatic effect than your choice of woods like using single coils. But if you feel maple is brighter then yes it would...

welcome to the forum

Sadly, it's not worth any credit

Still the most interesting class though.

Well thanks now I may just end up using mahogany for the neck wood.

[westhemann]

Well,the LP Studio is the premier metal tone imo,unfortunately I find them very heavy.

IIRC though,it has a hard maple top about 1/2" thick..with all mahogany back and neck.I think the mahogany/maple ratio of the LP studio is like a sonic nirvana,for me.I had a Studio plus a few years back that I put an 81/85 combo in...it sounded head and shoulders above everything else I had,but I could never get comfortable playing it.I ended up selling it and sacrificing tone for comfort.

[B. Aaron]

The studio indeed has a maple top. It just isn't figured maple.

It's true, mahogany doesn't automatically make a dark guitar, but as I said, it can "push the tone into a darker direction." What you do with the materials has as much of an affect on the tone as the materials themselves, but you're still stuck working within the tonal potential of the piece of wood you're using.

Edited April 4, 2010 by B. Aaron

[WezV]

looks like we are both right, i am more familiar with the solid mahogany studios like the wine reds and the fadeds.

and just to clarify my point, to me 'pushing the tone in a darker direction' is a very different thing to 'muddy'. i agree that one of the qualities of mahogany is that it will generally make a guitar darker

[westhemann]

What you do with the materials has as much of an affect on the tone as the materials themselves, but you're still stuck working within the tonal potential of the piece of wood you're using.

Okay,well then consider this.The Explorer is solid mahogany,front to back and end to end...yet it is not muddy.In fact,it is as cutting and edgy a high gain tone as you will ever find...

The only reason this is so is because of the 500t at the bridge,which is a pickup made to compliment that particular wood tone.Still "dark",yes...but not ,muddy.

The 500t is very similar to a duncan distortion,to my ears.

[WezV]

and SG's & juniors too... some people think its the extra thickness of the LP that can make then bassier, but i dont rate thickness as that important (as shown by things like blackmachines)

[B. Aaron]

What you do with the materials has as much of an affect on the tone as the materials themselves, but you're still stuck working within the tonal potential of the piece of wood you're using.

Okay,well then consider this.The Explorer is solid mahogany,front to back and end to end...yet it is not muddy.In fact,it is as cutting and edgy a high gain tone as you will ever find...

The only reason this is so is because of the 500t at the bridge,which is a pickup made to compliment that particular wood tone.Still "dark",yes...but not ,muddy.

Emphasis added to point out a few of the things you said, because they conveniently fit into what I was saying about wood potential. If an all-mahogany Explorer were predisposed toward a bright, sparkly tone, it would not need specially voiced pickups (which you say are the "only reason" it has a cutting/edgy (yet also dark) tone). If all-mahogany Les Pauls were naturally bright and crisp, they wouldn't need to be retrofitted with Seymour Duncans or EMGs to bring out the clarity (as was implied in another user's post earlier).

As we all seem to be agreeing on, mahogany is usually predisposed toward a naturally darker tone (than Alder, for example). Depending on what you do with it, it can probably range from dull and lifeless to vibrant and vocal... but it doesn't have the potential to be as bright as the same guitar in something like Rock Maple, just as the Rock Maple guitar wouldn't have the potential to have the same complex low-end granted by mahogany.

Putting bright/clear/crisp/edgy pickups into a guitar does not change the resonance of the wood itself or the way the strings interact with the wood. Changing pickups, to me, is a little like changing a vocalist's microphone in the hopes of improving their voice: it might change what the PA system hears, but it's still the same person singing into the microphone.

Regarding WezV's perceptive post regarding SG vs Mahogany Les Paul tone, I think there are a few things at work here: first, how much more easily the SG soaks up (i.e., wastes) vibrational energy from the strings and (thus) eats up sustain, and second would be pickup placement.

Consider the overall mass of the body: because the SG is lighter, it is easier for the strings to make it vibrate, and thus the body reflects energy back into the strings less efficiently than the heavier LP would. Thickness affects the stiffness of the body, but I think the mass is the bigger factor there.

Also consider the longer, thinner SG neck: after doing some rough math, I'd postulate that a (1960s) SG neck is only about half as stiff as a (1950s) Les Paul neck... and never mind the tiny neck tenon of an early SG compared to the much more solid anchor the early Les Paul had. It all adds up and contributes to the unique, punchy, crisp sound of an SG compared to the sustain of a LP.

Pickup placement: many SGs have their neck pickup sitting farther away from the fretboard than a Les Paul does: on a Les Paul the front polepieces are near the 24th fret, and on an average SG they're well past it (though the SG shape and layout have changed so much over the years that that's not always true). If I remember correctly, the SG bridge pickup might be a little closer to the bridge than on the LP (am I right about that?) which can have a huge effect on what the pickup "hears."

(The math behind that neck estimate: stiffness has a cubic relationship to thickness, and an inverse cubic relationship to length. 2x as thick is 2x2x2=8 times as stiff, and 2x as long is ½x½x½=1/8 as stiff. Make a minor change in neck length and thickness and you can make a huge difference in the flexibility (and energy-absorption) of a neck.)

[westhemann]

I don't want to read all of that

Don't mean to be pedantic,but I think the point is that it is a combination of the factors,and that mahogany is not muddy in nature,rather when you combine a less defined pickup and mahogany,you may well get a "muddy" tone.

But if you want to argue with quotes of my posts,it's cool...I am going to sleep though,as I am old.

[B. Aaron]

Yes, that would be my point. I never said mahogany was muddy - merely that it tends toward a darker tonal response.

Edited April 5, 2010 by B. Aaron

[mrhahajones]

Well nevermind my class got cancelled

But thanks anyways; hopefully someday I'll get to building that.

[Tim37]

dont let it stop you there a a lot of good books out there and this site can pretty much answer any other questions

get your self a copy of Melvin Hiscocks bood Build your own electric guitar that will get you back on track.

[mrhahajones]

Well I've taken a look at that book, but I don't have any tools or anything to get the job done =/

[Tim37]

well dont give up i dont have many woodworking tools almost non but i am slowly collecting what i need adn until then i have fun modifing and refinishing old beaters.

[mrhahajones]

Hey guys,

 

I hate to revive an 11 year old thread, but I completely forgot about making this post and stumbled upon it and felt like giving an update for those still around.

The class eventually got offered again, and I was able to go for a couple semesters. I got the majority of the work done, and wired up a spare set of electronics salvaged from a les Paul special, and it sounded sweet! I believe I copied the scale length from one of my Jackson guitars, at 25.5 inches, so it is not a true les Paul. 

Unfortunately, even though I had used a jig for cutting the fret slots, they must have wavered ever so slightly, as all of the frets went in fully in the center, and we’re coming up on the edges, every single one, so I had to pull them out, as no amount of gluing or pressing could get them to bite.

The carve in the maple top leaves a lot to be desired, as my teacher wasn’t familiar with how to do them, and just had me router the edge. It got a little low in some places, and the router bit into my output jack. I drilled one of the tuner holes a little too close towards the center (whoops), but all in all, though it looks sloppy, I am happy with how it turned out, considering that it is a first time build. I eventually hope to procure a fret slot jig and refill and recut the slots, and finish up on the body a little bit before getting it wired and finished. 
 

thanks for looking!

https://i.imgur.com/WMk0NAv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bewqkgq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2ezo9Q4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Y1hKieH.jpg

Edited November 15, 2021 by mrhahajones

[Bizman62]

Welcome back! It's only fair that you finish a thread you've started to tell us later readers how your building process ended.

7 hours ago, mrhahajones said:

all of the frets went in fully in the center, and we’re coming up on the edges,

To me that sounds like you were using straight fretwire on a radiused fretboard. The fretwire should have a tighter radius than the fretboard to keep the ends down.

There's many ways to fix the top. Either you can add a binding to mask the edge (not so easy to carve the slot near the neck, though) or make it more like your own design by rounding over the edge. Regarding the jack, one option is to use an ElectroSocket cup and countersink that level with the notch which can then be explained to be designed for an angled plug! Looks like a good project to continue.

I took the liberty to copy your pictures on the forum to save them in case something happens to your imgur account or the service.

[mrhahajones]

On 11/15/2021 at 12:25 AM, Bizman62 said:

Welcome back! It's only fair that you finish a thread you've started to tell us later readers how your building process ended.

To me that sounds like you were using straight fretwire on a radiused fretboard. The fretwire should have a tighter radius than the fretboard to keep the ends down.

There's many ways to fix the top. Either you can add a binding to mask the edge (not so easy to carve the slot near the neck, though) or make it more like your own design by rounding over the edge. Regarding the jack, one option is to use an ElectroSocket cup and countersink that level with the notch which can then be explained to be designed for an angled plug! Looks like a good project to continue.

I took the liberty to copy your pictures on the forum to save them in case something happens to your imgur account or the service.

Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures for me! I couldn’t for the life of me figure out how to post those and not just links. 

That is a great idea about the input jack though, I would have never thought of that. It’s been too long, but I thought the fretwire I bought came in straight strips, so perhaps I had used the wrong kind? 
 

If I ever get around to trying my hand at building another guitar, I will probably set my sights on something a little less ambitious.

[Bizman62]

1 hour ago, mrhahajones said:

I thought the fretwire I bought came in straight strips

It may come straight or curved, in either case you'll have to make sure that the radius is tighter than your fretboard radius.

[mistermikev]

just some random thoughts... it would seem to me that the most likely mistake to make in fret slots is the actual cut.  It is surprisingly hard to cut fret slots to the right width.  I have a fret slotting blade I got from lmii... it is per spec .023" kerf, but that thing cut them waay too thick in maple.  in ebony... probably would be perfect.  my point is... even when you have a precision tool... it can be problematic depending on the wood.  If it is not what biz prescribed, which is incidentally another of the big 'gotchas' with fret slotting and a great guess... it might be this.  looking at your slots there... and pictures may be deceiving... it looks like the tangs didn't leave much of an impression... which would make me think they weren't holding/biting well enough.  not wide enough and they can end up putting in back bow, too wide and no matter what radius you get them at... they aren't going to hold on the ends.  

btw, it a great looking build and I for one LOVE the idea of a lp with 25.5... I learned on a 25.5scale sg90... it was glorious... but I digest.  

the edges... that looks to be in the "sand out" real.  you could easily do some creative manipulation of the shape by 1/2mm on a drum sander and feather the rest of it out with sandpaper.  binding would also look great, but it would seem it wasn't your initial intention so just thought I'd mention.  

top almost looks like figured ash but I can see it is maple... is a nice top. 

afa jack... well that one has caught everyone at one time or another (router bearing slips into jack hole... a classic).  I think this is an opportunity to learn about matching wood.  whatever your cutter radius was before... get a plug cutter sm size... find some grain that is close to a match... cut a plug and hand sand it till it fits good and won't require a redrill of the hole.  then glue it in.  

wishing the best of successes for you and  hope something there helps..