Neck Joint - Wood Screws Or Threaded Inserts ?

[Stolysmaster]

I'm in the process of building a Strat using a Warmoth neck and a B.Hefner body, and have come to the point of decision on the "bolt-on" neck situation. I'm looking to get some feedback on the advantages, if any, of going with threaded inserts and stainless machine screws, or the traditional wood screws. I have done some searching on the forum here, and have come to the conclusion that using the neck plate in either situation would probably be beneficial, in that the plate will distribute the tension across a wider area. I have also decided NOT to put a finish on the contact area, and leave that as bare wood. I just have not reached a conclusion yet on how much of a "sonic" or tone/sustain benefit would possibly be achieved if I go with the inserts and machine screws.

Any informed feedback from experience and/or "scientific" perspective would be appreciated.

[guitar2005]

I don't believe that wood screws vs threaded inserts will make a noticeable difference tone or sustain wise.

Also, a neck plate doesn't really distribute pressure as it is in no way rigid enough to do that. Pressure is concetrated where the screws are. The neck plate acts as a washer.

A good neck to body join is the most important factor here.

I just use wood screws with small stainless steel ferrules.

[Stolysmaster]

Thanks for that input, I see what you mean about the pressure being concentrated where the screws actually join with the neck. My neck plate is a stainless (chrome plated) one from Callaham (they're "Cryogenically treated" you know!...whatever the hell that means) so it's a bit more rigid than stock, but probably not much of a factor as you stated.

After I get the neck on with string tension for about a week and have it situated and playing nicely, I am thinking about doing what Blackmore did to his...gluing it into the pocket!

Edited September 5, 2011 by Stolysmaster

[Stolysmaster]

Since my latest thought is to glue the neck into the pocket after all adjustments have been made and everything has settled, I guess my original question would no longer matter...Huh?! Still thinking about all the options though...

[Tim37]

there are fenders out there that have been screwed together for 60 years. at this point i would say they have stood the test of time. the only reason i can see to use inserts is if you where taking the neck on and off freqently under standard use screws will be fine.

as far as glueing there are people that say that a bolt neck transfers tone better than a set neck because the glue acts as a insulator. i would just stick with the screws/bolts your neck joint wasnt designed to be glued.

[Stolysmaster]

there are fenders out there that have been screwed together for 60 years. at this point i would say they have stood the test of time. the only reason i can see to use inserts is if you where taking the neck on and off freqently under standard use screws will be fine.

as far as glueing there are people that say that a bolt neck transfers tone better than a set neck because the glue acts as a insulator. i would just stick with the screws/bolts your neck joint wasnt designed to be glued.

Thanks for the reply Tim, I am begining to come to the same conclusion; that the traditional screws are probably just as good for tone as threaded inserts. But as far as those who say that "a bolt neck transfers tone better than a set neck because the glue acts as a insulator."...I have never found or heard with my own ears any evidence of that being true. That's just MY experience, but I've been playing for over 42 years now. Ritchie blackmore has been having his Strat necks glued in for many years without any sacrifice in his tone.

I know that Ed Roman believes that glue interferes with tone transfer in a negative way, but I've read several of his theories that I think are total BS! I've always wondered where he came up with "The glue between the neck & body of a guitar will prevent 60% to 70% of high end tone transference". Where does Ed Roman come up with such ridiculous assertions? If this was anywhere close to being true, then any time a fingerboard is glued to a neck the glue would prevent the guitar from having any brightness!

Anyway, no decision has been made on the "glued-in neck" thing yet.

[dpm99]

I don't understand why you wouldn't just do a set neck? Has someone convinced you it's a whole lot more difficult or something? By the way, Ed Roman does stop in here from time to time. I tend to agree that glue isn't going to do as he says, but I will say he's always seemed like a pretty nice guy.

[Stolysmaster]

I don't understand why you wouldn't just do a set neck? Has someone convinced you it's a whole lot more difficult or something? By the way, Ed Roman does stop in here from time to time. I tend to agree that glue isn't going to do as he says, but I will say he's always seemed like a pretty nice guy.

Thanks for your input. I will try and explain my situation.

I currently own four set neck guitars; a 1982 Ibanez Artist that I refinished in nitro, a 1995 Gibson Flying V, and two that I built (well, Doug at Soulmate made the outstanding necks for me!) I sold my last custom built Strat about ten years ago. There are things that I'm recording and playing now that kinda require a Strat like sound, and I will be trying to duplicate that sound live as well. So, I decided to build another Strat! I ordered the neck from Warmoth cause I liked the last one I got from them, ordered an unfinished body from B.Hefner, and hardware from Warmoth and Callaham. Putting this one together will be a piece of cake compared to the time and effort my last two set necks took. Of course, the spraying, sanding, and polishing of the lacquer will take the same as the last ones, but no sawing, routing, tedious measuring, or any of that sorta thing on this one. I'll just be drilling holes for the bridge and pickguard.

Aside from that, Ed Roman may very well be a nice guy; never met or communicated with him. Thanks for the heads up on him stopping in here, but since I did not write anything disparaging about him personally, I really couldn't care less if he reads what I said. He and I could certainly be civil about agreeing to disagree on stuff, at least I can. There have been a lot worse things said about him on this forum than what I wrote to be sure!

Edited September 6, 2011 by Stolysmaster

[dpm99]

Yeah, I'm sure. I checked, and he hasn't been active in a few years. I was just remembering from a long time ago. Anyway, it sounds like you've got it figured out. Personally, I'd just do it the strat way, with wood screws. But you seem to know what you're doing, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts after it's done.

[SwedishLuthier]

there are fenders out there that have been screwed together for 60 years. at this point i would say they have stood the test of time.

While that is perfectly true with most bolt on guitars, drilling out destroyed neck, plugging them with new wood and re-drilling is probably the single most common thing I do in my workshop. If the holes through the body is to tight drilled or has gotten too much finish in them there is a high probability that the screws don't "bite" good enough, leading to the owner over tightening the screws and destroying the holes in the neck. *That* will never happen with threaded inserts and thats why I use them on all bolt on necks I make. Some extra security.

[guitar2005]

If the holes through the body is to tight drilled or has gotten too much finish in them there is a high probability that the screws don't "bite" good enough, leading to the owner over tightening the screws and destroying the holes in the neck. *That* will never happen with threaded inserts and thats why I use them on all bolt on necks I make. Some extra security.

I don't understand the statement above.

You're saying that if the screw holes through the body are too tight, that's a problem?

[westhemann]

You're saying that if the screw holes through the body are too tight, that's a problem?

Well,yes...because the screws are not supposed to bite into the body,only the neck,so that the screws pull the neck towards the body with enough force to create the proper connection,which is a friction connection.This way the joint is as strong as it can be,and instead of relying on the shear strength of the screws,it is relying on the tensile strength of the screws and of the friction created by the neck pressing forcefully against the body.

Here is a good explanation,and it is how we erect steel structures today.The principle is exactly the same in a guitar neck/body connection

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/06july/article184.html

[WezV]

You're saying that if the screw holes through the body are too tight, that's a problem?

it is a problem - the holes should not be oversized, but you should be able to push those screws through the body by hand

[jaycee]

If the holes through the body is to tight drilled or has gotten too much finish in them there is a high probability that the screws don't "bite" good enough, leading to the owner over tightening the screws and destroying the holes in the neck. *That* will never happen with threaded inserts and thats why I use them on all bolt on necks I make. Some extra security.

I don't understand the statement above.

You're saying that if the screw holes through the body are too tight, that's a problem?

It can be. If the screws used are completely threaded all the way to the head, then as you tighten they may push the neck away before they bite into the neck. When all 4 screws are then tightened and you notice that the neck has a bit of play in it, the natural thing to do is to tighten some more. At this point some threads will be stripped. The way to avoid this is to drill the holes in the body slightly larger that those in the neck, so when it is tightened, the neck is being pulled into the body.

Oh and in answer....Threaded inserts by a mile

Edited September 11, 2011 by jaycee

[guitar2005]

You're saying that if the screw holes through the body are too tight, that's a problem?

it is a problem - the holes should not be oversized, but you should be able to push those screws through the body by hand

Agreed, but even if they are tight, you should clamp the neck before screwing it in, no? That's what I usually do.

What kind of inserts do you guys usually use?

[Mender]

You're saying that if the screw holes through the body are too tight, that's a problem?

it is a problem - the holes should not be oversized, but you should be able to push those screws through the body by hand

Agreed, but even if they are tight, you should clamp the neck before screwing it in, no? That's what I usually do.

What kind of inserts do you guys usually use?

I use these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330292937612?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

They work extremely well, you just need to get some M5 machine screws of a suitable length to go with them

[SwedishLuthier]

If the holes through the body is to tight drilled or has gotten too much finish in them there is a high probability that the screws don't "bite" good enough, leading to the owner over tightening the screws and destroying the holes in the neck. *That* will never happen with threaded inserts and thats why I use them on all bolt on necks I make. Some extra security.

I don't understand the statement above.

You're saying that if the screw holes through the body are too tight, that's a problem?

If the screws through the body is to tight the grip in the neck is lessened for the eqvivalent torque apied to the screws compared to a correct sized hole. If so the neck might not be fixed good enough to the body and the tinker type of guitarist will use too much force to get a god grip, thus overtightening the screws resulting in destroud "threads" in the neck.

Re clamping the neck when screwing it to the body: If averything is correct in regards of holes in the body, holes in the neck etc; why? It sound like a fix for a problem that should be solved by removing the issue, not making a work around.