Rockhorst Posted July 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2016 3 hours ago, Prostheta said: An inch short? Errrr How did this happen? I already had discovered I was working with tight margins, I should've ordered my neck blank about 2" longer to be on the safe side. Beginner's mistake. I wanted to cut the headstock part with some room for error, but I totally messed up the math. That wasn't necessarily a problem yet, but I started cutting the scarf joint with a (Japanese) hand saw and the blade twisted and wandered to much. After fixing that up, getting everything at the same angle and flat, my margin was way gone. I'm now scarfing on a totally separate piece of maple. It's drying in clamps now. If it totally fails, I'll start over, but as someone aptly said: part of the process is fixing your mistakes. Last night I redid my measurements and calculations and I now have solid figures for a future attempt, if need be. I do have an old cut off piece from the same blank that's just over the right length to attach to the heel. Got lucky there. Pictures coming up in the morning, so you can help me judge the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockhorst Posted July 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2016 One thing I should add is that I custom ordered my neck blank from a small local wood dealer that specializes in musical instruments. I made some stupid choices when I determined the dimensions of the blank. Next time I'll order it slightly thicker and longer, as that has no influence on the sales price whatsoever. That's the real lesson here. For now, I'm trying to work with it, as the wood is to nice looking not to give it a try (again, pictures tomorrow). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted July 6, 2016 Report Share Posted July 6, 2016 You live and learn. If the blank is perfectly good otherwise, keep it for a rainy day. Always plenty of projects in the sea! Rather than compromise the existing project, can you buy in a new blank? I mean, don't undermine your vision by mashing specs up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockhorst Posted July 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2016 Make or break in the next couple of days. If the scarf joint went well, gluing a little extra maple to the heel should, in the end, be barely noticeable on the finished guitar. If you know about it, you can spot it in the lower cutaway, but otherwise. It should not be a problem with integrity I think, especially with a fretboard glued on top. Even if it goes south, I'd rather practice on this one a little longer. Maybe it wasn't clear yet, but I've already did some work on it, so the alternative is throwing it in the trash (or keep it for that short scale build that may one day arise). I've already got a spare blank. Different setup, but I ordered two at the same time: maple with bubinga strip and maple with double purpleheart stripes. Working on the bubinga now, hope to save the purperheart for a later project. But, if need be, I can start working on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted July 7, 2016 Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 What are you scarfing? A new headstock or an extension in the heel end? I can't see the latter working out well....too much constant load! I'd love to be proven wrong of course, however it's one of the last things I would consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psikoT Posted July 7, 2016 Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 I think it could be solved with some veneer in the heel, making kinda sandwich with the veneer and the fretboard... not my favourite solution either, but could work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockhorst Posted July 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) I just butt joined a piece to the heel after matching the faces with a router pass. I know that's not the most stable joint, but I've seen some tests with titebond holding, and I guesstimate that the tensions and stresses in a guitar neck are relatively puny compared to that. I've included pictures of the entire neck (can post larger ones if needed) and I'd like your judgement. I'm torn between continuing with this neck or starting over. The scarf isn't perfect, and the top face of the neck needs to be planed down further to make it flat. At it's flattest it's now 19 mm, the high point is 19.5 mm. It's because the joint moved at glue up, even though I did a dry run and used locator pins. I haven't got jointers or jointer planes that could make this a fast job, so it may not be worth it. I was able to square up the neck-to-headstock transition. Also, this is a 10 degree scarf, which moves the meeting point of the to faces a little too much towards the headstock for my taste. Maybe I should've gone for a more standard Ibanez 14 degree. I'd have to make a new jig first for that. Anyway, I'm taking a trip for a few weeks soon, so enough time to contemplate. Enough talk, picture time! Let me know what you think. Back of the neck Detail of the front Edited July 7, 2016 by Rockhorst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted July 7, 2016 Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 Butt joint = little to no functional strength. Even if you size the end grain, they have very little strength. Can't dress that up I'm afraid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted July 7, 2016 Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 38 minutes ago, Rockhorst said: The scarf isn't perfect, and the top face of the neck needs to be planed down further to make it flat. At it's flattest it's now 19 mm, the high point is 19.5 mm. It's because the joint moved at glue up, even though I did a dry run and used locator pins. I haven't got jointers or jointer planes that could make this a fast job, so it may not be worth it. I was able to square up the neck-to-headstock transition. Also, this is a 10 degree scarf, which moves the meeting point of the to faces a little too much towards the headstock for my taste. This is your argument for starting over. It's a pretty good argument. Add to that the butt joined extension and it's even stronger. Nobody likes having to do something a second time.....I personally hate it. But if the end result is a much better neck and a headstock that fits your tastes better, you'll be glad you did. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdshirtman Posted July 7, 2016 Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 44 minutes ago, Prostheta said: Butt joint = little to no functional strength. Even if you size the end grain, they have very little strength. Can't dress that up I'm afraid! Carls correct. The butt joint is a recipe for failure. Its time to cut your losses and build another neck from the beginning and do it right. It sucks but you've learnt a valuable lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockhorst Posted July 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 Guess you're right Scott. I'd sort of come to that conclusion, so I saw this coming. It's just a pity with all the work and elbow grease that went into it. Oh well, I'll get back to it in August! Thanks for the input, greatly appreciate all the extra eyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockhorst Posted July 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 Can anyone judge the scarf joint based on the pictures? I saw an old test piece that I did with my router and I think that was not as bad as I remembered it to be, compared to the sanded version. I think I'll draw up some vectors images of the jig and have it lasered, the 'lazy' git that I am... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DandHcustoms Posted July 7, 2016 Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 Rockhorst do you have a table saw? if so you can make a jig that rides in your miter slot that will make cutting the joint a lot easier and needs just a bit of sanding to clean it up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockhorst Posted July 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) No, no table saw and no room for one either...don't laugh, I have to work on my balcony...I looked into setting up shop somewhere else, but the only viable options are, sadly, north of $2000 a year. I could rent a table saw though....but that would cost more than two new neck blanks Edited July 7, 2016 by Rockhorst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DandHcustoms Posted July 7, 2016 Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 Do you have any power saws? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockhorst Posted July 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 B&D jigsaw....I think the janitor at work has a miter saw I would be able to use. I can check tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted July 7, 2016 Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 It may still be possible to save the blank. The butt joint probably won't have enough strength by itself, but a short scarf might. You'd need to re-cut a longer extension to replace the piece you've already made. If you cut it right the join would be hidden from view inside the neck pocket (except from the treble side, where you won't look for it anyway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockhorst Posted July 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 I think I've wasted too much time fixing things and a fresh start would be good 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 I know from experience how easy it is to get mentally invested in lost causes. I've screwed many things up, but kept my foot on the pedal when I should have just pulled over and kicked the tyre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neven Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 if you have spare wood, why don't you just glue one more headstock plate over this one? That way, the piece that is now a headstock, would become scarf laminate layer, and it would give you more than enough neck length. No need for heel extensions. You have more than enough neck with, so I would just move the scarf a little further this way. You already have the neck angle, so just glue one more flat piece to your headstock and there you go. Easy Fix. It just has to be long enough to compensate for the angle. If it's hard to understand what I mean, I'll draw it, no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 Well I get what you mean anyway. It's a solution however it would demand that each scarf lamination at the head end be absolutely dead on perfect. If @Rockhorst can nail that side of things, that'll work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1556 Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 Rockhorst - If you were to have the jig lasered, will that be out of acrylic? If so, what size are you looking at? Maybe able to help you out as I've still got my laser cutter in the garage. Whichever way you go, hope the issue is sorted quickly. DDandhcustoms - that's a great video! I'm going to see if my dads table saw has the guide rail sections ready for future projects! Thanks for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockhorst Posted July 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 @Steve: getting MDF lasered is waaaaay cheaper than acrylic. For comparison: I had my full guitar template lasered in acrylic at €110 while the MDF version was €30, including €15 setup cost. But I've more or less decided that using routers for scarf joints is just silly, time wise. Looking into a bandsaw actually, but before I pull the trigger on that I'm checking to see if I have any friends with powertools that could just do this one cut for me. Also got the address of a furniture maker that may be willing to do the job. I did buy my first hand plane today. Nothing fancy yet, just something to get started, practicing sharpening and cutting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DandHcustoms Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 19 hours ago, steve1556 said: Rockhorst - If you were to have the jig lasered, will that be out of acrylic? If so, what size are you looking at? Maybe able to help you out as I've still got my laser cutter in the garage. Whichever way you go, hope the issue is sorted quickly. DDandhcustoms - that's a great video! I'm going to see if my dads table saw has the guide rail sections ready for future projects! Thanks for that. I saw some one else on here or sso that had a similar jig so I had to make one it's a great idea! 19 hours ago, Rockhorst said: @Steve: getting MDF lasered is waaaaay cheaper than acrylic. For comparison: I had my full guitar template lasered in acrylic at €110 while the MDF version was €30, including €15 setup cost. But I've more or less decided that using routers for scarf joints is just silly, time wise. Looking into a bandsaw actually, but before I pull the trigger on that I'm checking to see if I have any friends with powertools that could just do this one cut for me. Also got the address of a furniture maker that may be willing to do the job. I did buy my first hand plane today. Nothing fancy yet, just something to get started, practicing sharpening and cutting. A router sled isn't terrible for cutting scarf joints it just takes some time to get the Jig set up properly and of course actually cut the scarf. Where are you located there may be somebody from this group that is close by that wouldn't mind helping you outmind helping you out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1556 Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 How much for the acrylic templates????? No wonder you weren't happy when they got ruined! Having said that, when I've cut 5mm acrylic, I use 95% power and run at 2mm per second, which puts a lot of wear on the laser tube, so I can sort of see why it wasn't cheap. For the bandsaw, you can get small hobby sized ones. I've used my friends one a lot and it works perfectly, apart from it's impossible to get right to the bottom of the lower horn cut out with it as the post is in the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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