Practise build nearly complete, would appreciate advice on some fauls

[Reg Maxwell]

Hi Guys,

I've recently got back into the fun of woodworking and guitar making after nearly 15 years and would appreciate some pointers/advice from those who know what they're doing

A bit of background, when I was a teenager just starting my A levels, I asked a very dear friend of my family, a superbly talented cabinet maker responsible for fit and finish for a luxury yacht company, if he'd mind giving me some pointers as I wanted to make a guitar. After several long afternoons spent together in his workshop, I had a totally unique guitar to learn to play on. Sadly about 18 months later we lost him to lung cancer and I didn't have the heart to carry on with further projects, it was hard to even pick up that guitar afterwards for a long time.

I've very much wanted to make another custom guitar since then, and recently found out that one of my very good friends who has never been able to afford to have any kind of custom instrument has had a long-time desire for a very specific custom Strat. I have felt different recently about the whole woodworking thing and find now that playing that guitar and working on such projects actually brings back the fond memories in a good way and I'd really like to pay some of Bob's kindness forward and make that special Strat for my friend James.

So, without any real clue what I was doing, I didn't want to jump straight in. I had the opportunity to rescue an abandoned 'refurb' job so got to work.

Attached is a picture of the guitar as I received it, an Epiphone Les Paul Special II. Worth about £120 when new... It had most of the hardware removed (supplied separate in jam jar) and the front had been heavily sanded with 40 grit (including the inserts for the bridge and tail piece) 

I had a number of things I wanted to learn to do properly;

1) Carving. A good strat has a confortable cutout in the back and a chamfered endge on the front
2) veneer work
3) bindings
4) painting

I'm still waiting for my new pickups to arrive but the guitar is otherwise mostly 'done' and I have had a few issues with those 4 things that I'd appreciate some advice on if thats OK

I've also attached a picture of how the guitar looks now, in its almost finished state. I'll make a couple of replies to this thread for the issues I've faced, apologies if that's not the way you normally do things around here but I'm a newbie

My goal, if I have some idea how to avoid the issues I've encountered on this build/refurb, is to have a solid basis for a scratch built Strat.

[Reg Maxwell]

Carving

This actually went pretty well. The chamfer on the front was painful to do... I stuck the guitar body in a vice and hacked it off with a saw... then with guide lines drawn on with a sharpie (this thing was already covered in thick lacquer, otherwise id have used pencil) I used a coarse then fine rasp to flatten it off, and finished up with one of those rectangular thick steel blades to scrape it flat.

The curved cut out of the back was more difficult, again I drew guide lines with a sharpie and then just rasped away until it looked about right before going back to the blade to finish it up.

 

Problem I encountered here was that some of the wooden strips were softer than others, and it was extremely difficult to get a consistent surface. I ended up using car filler primer (you know that manky gloopy yellow spraypaint) to actually get a flat surface. That's no cop if you want a clear finish.

I guess this will be somewhat moot in a scratch build because I'll be in control of what piece of wood it's made of, but are their any products/techniques that can be recommended for getting a consistent surface after a carve? 

[Bizman62]

10 minutes ago, Reg Maxwell said:

are there any products/techniques that can be recommended for getting a consistent surface after a carve?

A good, sharp hand plane is the perfect tool for flat and convex surfaces like the arm rest. Concave areas are a little more tricky, a cabinet scraper might be one of the best. I've done those mainly using a giant belt sander just because there's one at the workshop, finishing with a scraper and sandpaper. For the latter a large and semi-hard sanding block is much better than your fingertips for controlling the process. Anyhow, there's as many ways to carve those areas as there's tools. Starting from saws, planes, chisels, gouges, rasps and scrapers up to power tools like the abovementioned belt sander and its handheld little brother, bandsaws, orbital sanders, angle grinders, routers and whatnot have been successfully used for the carving.

Getting the surface consistent requires some skill and patience and understanding of how the tools work. As I said a large enough sanding block is better than bare hands. If there's a small hump you'd need some reference to tell when it's flat, otherwise you'd be carving it to a dip. The block doesn't have to be big to all directions, a sanding beam is a very useful tool especially in narrow places. Similarly you can slide the bottom side of a chisel along the surface to locate and level bumps.

[Reg Maxwell]

cool thanks for the info. Cabinet scraper - that's what I used, just didn't know the name.

I'll invest in a decent hand plane and do some practise carves. I think using a rasp for the bulk of the work suits me well, a plane sounds like a good option to smooth off from there thanks. I'll pop up some stuff on the veneer work a bit later on after work, 

[Bizman62]

Oh, and I forgot one of the most versatile tools from the list: The Shinto Saw-Rasp!

Another one of that ilk is a rasp plane or surform tool, whichever name is more familiar to you. They can look like planes, files or even dishwashing brushes and are usually inexpensive.

[ScottR]

2 hours ago, Reg Maxwell said:

cool thanks for the info. Cabinet scraper - that's what I used, just didn't know the name.

I'll invest in a decent hand plane and do some practise carves. I think using a rasp for the bulk of the work suits me well, a plane sounds like a good option to smooth off from there thanks. I'll pop up some stuff on the veneer work a bit later on after work, 

This plan is what most do, you are on the right track. First rasp and then scrape or plane or sand with a hard block if you are working with wood that goes hard-soft-hard. (pine is the worst for that). Luckily not all woods do that. If your carve includes a lot of curves, the plane will have limited use. Like @Bizman62 said, a hard narrow sanding block (sanding beam) is good for that or a semi hard but flexible sanding block is good as well.

Cheers and good luck!

SR

[Reg Maxwell]

Veneer Work

This bit was, to my shame a mess.

So the threaded bridge and tailpiece inserts were in the wood. I had no idea (and still don't know) if it's possible to safely remove them, so I attempted to veneer around them...

I got a roll of paper backed veneer to use, and remember Bob saying that he always glued veneers face-down and sanded the paper off of the back. that seemed awkward to me given that the threaded inserts were still present, and a youtube veneer tutorial instructed that veneers be glued paper side down... So that's what I went with.

Given that the face of the guitar still had a thick layer of whatever that nasty chippy resin/lacquer is they use on these cheap things I figured that PVA probably wouldn't stick too well as it had nothing to soak into, so I used areldite instead lol

I cut a rough guitar shaped template out of mdf, and sliced off the arm rest so I could clamp most of the surface (I drilled out where the threaded inserts would line up to the template so there was pressure all around them) and clamped it all down for a couple of days.  

This actually has stuck on pretty well over most of it. The issues I've faced with this are mostly my own lack of care and attention, and the problems caused by those threaded inserts. I managed to cut a couple of chunks out of the veneer by not paying adequate attention when going round chopping the edges off with a stanley. 

Naturally having those threaded inserts in there prevented me from sanding the top properly either before painting it or during the coats of lacquer. As a result I've not been able to get a perfect finish, with the lacquer being a lot more orange-peely than I'd like. There are also visible surface imperfections still from inadequately filled grain. 

Also, possibly due to the veneer being cheap rubbish off eBay, possibly due to me gluing it paper side down, a couple of tiny ripples have appeared in the surface since gluing it. I suspect the veneer has delaminated off the paper slightly as I struggle to believe areldite would have lifted like that.

So a couple of questions here really, 

1) is it possible to safely remove the threaded inserts? If so is there a nack to doing it without smashing things to bits?

2) should I be veneering paper-side-down like the youtube tutorials say, or paper side up like good old Bob?

3) was areldite a bad idea? lol

I've tried to add a couple more pictures here but I'm struggling to get the files to upload. I think I may have tried too many assorted photos. I'll upload a couple more when I figure out how

 

And thanks so much for your replies already. I'm really grateful for the pointers. I like to have a go myself before I go asking loads of questions but I really appreciate the willingness to share advice. 

[Reg Maxwell]

couple of veneer pics. the one taken from the side should show up the ripple that has formed. Am I right in thinking the veneer has come away from the paper backing?

[curtisa]

1 hour ago, Reg Maxwell said:

is it possible to safely remove the threaded inserts? If so is there a nack to doing it without smashing things to bits?

 

 

1 hour ago, Reg Maxwell said:

should I be veneering paper-side-down like the youtube tutorials say, or paper side up like good old Bob?

I'd actually not heard of paper backed veneer until just now. Reading up on it it looks more like it is intended for cabinetry and countertops, and is usually adhered using epoxy or contact cement paper side down. Assuming it is natural wood veneer adhered to the paper backing, I would have assumed that using it paper side up makes it behave more like an all-timber veneer and could be adhered using more 'traditional' methods. The paper backing just becomes a sacrificial covering that can be removed after gluing.

How the 'de-papered' side reacts when directly exposed to heat, sanding, subsequent coating with oil/varnish/dyes/stains etc is another matter. The adhesive used to attach the paper may contaminate the surface of the veneer enough to interfere with the application of various finishes. Trying to remove any of these surface contaminants (if any) by sanding may result in accidentally sanding through the veneer to the substrate below, ruining the veneer job altogether.

The more usual method would be to use an all-timber veneer adhered using more forgiving glues such as PVA or hot hide glue, or using a veneer with some kind of pre-applied heat activated glue and adhering it to the surface using an iron.

 

1 hour ago, Reg Maxwell said:

was areldite a bad idea? lol

Probably. You would have done better to sand off the old finish back to bare wood and use a wood glue to marry up timber with timber. PVA-type glues have the advantage of being moderately reversible with the application of heat and/or steam, so if you had any bubbles in the veneer after application you'd have had the opportunity to try flattening them down again with the use of an iron, or syringing glue into the bubble and reapplying pressure. Araldite, not so much.

[PhilHill]

As far as removing the bushings......https://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-remove-Tune-o-Matic-bushings-from-Les-Paul-/

 

 

[Reg Maxwell]

Hi Again,

Thanks for the tips on the inserts/bushings. Half the battle is knowing what these components are all called so I can work the google

I'll try to get veneers without backing in future. Sounds like they're easier to work with. Seems like most of the veneers you can get on ebay in the UK are the paper-backed worktop type jobbies, does anyone UK based have a particular supplier they can recommend?

 

Bindings

This actually went waay better than I expected. I got a router bit with a bearing on the top and replaced the bearing with a smaller one, making about a 1.4mm rebate bit. I bought some ABS plastic bindings off of ebay (6mm x 1.5mm), and applied them using a pipette full of acetone and a roll of masking tape. There were a few corners where I'd damaged the edge of the veneer so I dissolved some abs offcuts in acetone to make a sticky black sludge and used it as filler to go in behind the binding. It went on really well and actually hid the veneer fails pretty well. 

The problem I had with it was in the sanding back. Sanding the face of the veneer put scratches in the bindings and wore the corner round. even using really fine (600+) sandpaper left scratches in the bindings. I figured that, if you can see fine scratches in paint between coats, that probably the lacquer would fill in most of the scratches and it would look fine. unfortunately it would seem that the scratches in the bindings also had resulted in wood dust getting embedded in it so as you may be able to see from the last photo there are some cloudy grey scratches in the otherwise black binding.

I guess cream bindings wouldn't show this up so bad

So I'm thinking I've done all this in the wrong order. Like maybe I should have cut the binding slot first, then prepared the body ready for painting, including sanding sealer etc, then attached the binding last and levelled it with a cabinet scraper instead of sanding it.

there are also issues with the join between the grey painted wood and the edge of the binding but I'll save that for my paintwork roundup.

So, any top tips for my next attempt at adding bindings? Is there a particular process or nack for avoiding sanding marks in the binding?

I think even if I put it on really late in the process there's still going to be trouble sanding back paintwork etc

 

 

[Andyjr1515]

I can give you some hints and tips on veneering - I started a Tutorial on the site a LONG time ago and, to my shame, I never finished it.  This is yet another reminder that I need to get my fat...etc, etc  

I'll find some time tomorrow to answer your immediate questions, but this recent thread will maybe give a few pointers:

 

[Andyjr1515]

This is an old thread so two or three of the photos are missing, but this one has more of the hints and tips for the iron-on method of gluing veneers using PVA Wood Glue:

 

[Bizman62]

8 hours ago, Reg Maxwell said:

Half the battle is knowing what these components are all called so I can work the google

You can only guess the trouble trying to find out what the components are called in English to start Googling!

Making a slurry for fixing minor fails in the veneer was ingenious!

If you have a solid piece of any material with a scratch, clear lacquer will exaggerate it! That's why wood should be sanded along the grain as the grain pattern will hide the scratches. Solid materials like plastic, paint and lacquer should be sanded through the grains by changing the direction every time you go to a finer grain and sand until all scratches from the previous direction have vanished.

The trick to sand the top and still get a nice sharp edge on the binding is to first sand it all flush and smooth so the wood is ready for finishing. Then scrape and sand the binding only in an angle. 600 may not be fine enough a grit when dealing with solid materials like plastic or metals, then again polishing them too shiny may prevent lacquer from sticking. A satin sheen matte would most likely be ideal and to get that one crucial thing is use as little pressure as possible while sanding! The weight of your sanding block is usually enough. Sanding is like shawing with a blade: You only run the blade along your skin instead of trying to root the hair by scraping your ching down to bone!

[Andyjr1515]

On 6/10/2020 at 11:00 PM, Reg Maxwell said:

2) should I be veneering paper-side-down like the youtube tutorials say, or paper side up like good old Bob?

3) was areldite a bad idea? lol

Hi again

There are ranges of veneers you can get with, as you say, a light tissue paper bonded to the back.  There are also veneers that don't have that.

In use, they are pretty much the same except - particularly for veneers that have a high tendency to split - the paper-backed ones can be a little easier to handle as it gives some degree of split resistance when the veneer is being handled and cut.  But there's not a lot in it and, personally, I am just as happy using either.

But yes - you should glue the veneer paper side down.  As @curtisa says, any the bonding glue residue might inhibit any application of stains, etc, but also the veneer is only 0.6mm thick and so too much sanding and you can easily sand right through.

Another reason for gluing them paper down - and using PVA (yes - araldite is not a great idea ) it is actually a further advantage of the paper backed veneers - is that the paper will stop a lot of the PVA coming up through the grain and figuring and spilling out onto the veneer surface.  For finishing, you really need that veneer surface to be completely clear of PVA as it will show - whether stained or just clear-finished.

If you got a chance to read through the 'veneers without the tears' thread above, you will know that I use a good quality PVA-based wood glue.  I apply it to both the veneer and the body and let both dry.  This means that I can position the veneer as carefully as I like.  When I'm happy it is in the right position, I use a hot dry iron and literally iron it on.  This melts the PVA, the two applications mix and then, as it cools, it resolidifies and that's it - done.

And it is fully repeatable.  So if you do get a bubble (and that is not uncommon) you just iron that bit again!

Only downside is that this technique can't really be used for compound curves - I'm talking the top carve of, say a Gibson LP Standard.  Single curves, like the arm relief on a Stratocaster, are fine - it will bend very comfortably along one plane.

Oh - and usually, nothing wrong with many of the veneers you see on Ebay - it's actually a decent source of bookmatched veneers because you are seeing the pieces you are going to buy.  Probably 50% of the veneers I use are ebay sourced.

But different veneers do behave differently - it is, after all, solid wood sliced into 0.6mm sheets!  So some split more than others, some expand and shrink more than others and some have got more holes and gaps than others.