ESP M-II type "Invaders" Superstrat

[mistermikev]

2 hours ago, Prostheta said:

No, absolutely not. The simpler and more player-focused, the better. All I want out of guitars these days is that they play well and sound good. This one certainly hits that mark. If the 3-way switch could be made into a 2-way, that would be even better but I have to live with that middle position....! Same as the tone control; I prefer it neck only rather than global. So far, Pearly is blowing me away for so many reasons. I'm certain that a lot of this is to do with those Fluence pickups, however the guitar feels very alive and responsive. The Maple board is contributing a lot of clarity.

right on... to each his/her own.  two way switch... lol, well you COULD make the middle an "OFF" position... one half the switch is common live and one half is ground... at least w a few models of 3 way this is possible w the 3 individual tabs.

certainly looks nice and would love to hear it if you ever are so inclined. 

[Prostheta]

Nah, no use to me and I wouldn't like the cut in between positions.

I'm currently looking at illuminated arcade buttons and whether I can mod a couple for Invaders. One for the volume pot, raising the button out enough to make it rotatable by hand, or a latching kill switch. Similar idea for the tone pot, but a latching tone switch for the neck. I usually dial it all the way off, so a fixed resistor/capacitor LPF or even a preset resistor/capacitor switched in/out would do the trick.

[mistermikev]

29 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

Nah, no use to me and I wouldn't like the cut in between positions.

I'm currently looking at illuminated arcade buttons and whether I can mod a couple for Invaders. One for the volume pot, raising the button out enough to make it rotatable by hand, or a latching kill switch. Similar idea for the tone pot, but a latching tone switch for the neck. I usually dial it all the way off, so a fixed resistor/capacitor LPF or even a preset resistor/capacitor switched in/out would do the trick.

right on, that sounds cool.  I've seen illuminated pots before... w an led in the shaft... not sure how great of a pot they are tho... guess just placing an led in there might be a better solution...

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Alpha-Taiwan/RV142F-40-35BL-A10K?qs=8YYpzd7qSxLiAO%2BkjPfZ%2Fw%3D%3D&mgh=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpJ78k6KL_AIVNQqtBh3IDQsrEAQYAiABEgI7K_D_BwE

making arcade buttons that'd turn would be pretty cool if you can pull it off. 

[Andyjr1515]

Hi Carl

Good to see this progressing.  I fitted a Fluence bass soapbar recently to a 5-string bass build.  Sounded fantastic - really very impressed.  It's good to hear that the ones you are using are cutting the mustard too.

[Prostheta]

Hi Andy! Its been a while. Yes, these pickups were a more than pleasant surprise. It'll take a good amount of time to feel my way around what they are truly best at, what they fall short of or simply fail to achieve, but at this stage they are very impressive. The main point for me is that they are noiseless. I run mine on 18v which is unnecessary with Fluence pickups, however it will open up the EMGs in Invaders very well.

The only thing that I think is a limitation is that there isn't a huge range of tonal options as with passives. If Fishman extended the range of Fluence pickups out beyond the classic, moderns and artist sigs, they would probably capture a great deal of the market. At the moment, having the option of a PAF and Distortion-esque in the bridge covers a lot of ground. I might have to try the moderns at some point.

[Prostheta]

A few things that I would change, based on having spent time with the dry-built instruments.

• The tremolo cavity could be fined-tuned. The area behind the tremolo where the string lock screws site could be reduced from 15mm to 10mm depth. This should look far better once it has been felted.
• The neck pickup could be moved closer to the end of the fretboard, if only for a slightly fatter tone.
• Inlay on a Maple board should never be done with CA glue. Ugh.
• As much as the bolt-holes on the back of the neck for the locking nut just look cool as a technical feat, they're a PITA.
• Always buy your tuners in OEM packaging; the black Gotoh tuners for Invaders from G&W came missing a washer which pissed me off.

[Prostheta]

A small update on this one, more in how it is progressing as an overall objective arc. I've probably mentioned that I am studying another degree in CAD, including 3D scanning and a number of other subjects. Part of this is a small (relatively speaking) project bringing together multiple aspects into one demonstrative project. Mine is focusing on the design of production and manufacturing techniques for scaling a prototype out to a repeatable efficient....you know the sort of line here....

Whilst I am not moving in the direction of manufacturing instruments, my experience of developing manual and CNC processing led me to using the carved top Mirage/Horizon prototype. It brings together almost all study areas, most importantly applying them in a practical real world manner rather than leaving them as a theoretical study that doesn't really leave you with the important hands-on experience. Anyway.

I scanned the contours of an ESP Horizon using a Creaform HandySCAN 3D laser scanner which produced a point cloud that VXElements can post-process into features and meshes directly Inventor/SolidWorks, or as a mixture of meshes and primitive geometry in standard file formats like STL/STEP/IGES, etc. The objective was to derive basic geometry and contour information in order to recreate the top contours from a series of sweeps, network surfaces, etc.

 

Normally this scanner can derive a mesh to 0,25mm with depth information highly dependent on surface readability. Gloss surfaces introduce a lot of noise, so I had to lean heavily into the post-processing interpretation of the mesh. For example, the software can identify planes and sections of cylinders with a reasonable degree of reliability but with a noisy surface this gets a lot more variable to the point that manual intervention is necessary. The example above is heavily treated with defeaturing, hole removal and all sorts of surface recovery. Raw scan data tends to be more like this....the "orange peel" looks of the surfaces is the scanner's laser refracting within the clearcoat, giving highly variable depth information:

 

 

It's not bad, and enough to get a good headstart on deriving contour information as long as you have a mind for reverse-engineering....my Ibanez S that I scanned here shows that there's a lot more free-form contouring than ESP who really seem to go for predictable geometrically-based features.

[Andyjr1515]

Impressive stuff, Carl.

Andy

[Prostheta]

It's a very engaging subject, Andy. Also very surprising in how far the technology has come, but also hasn't. Gloss surfaces present an enormous challenge unless it is painted with a 3d scanning friendly surface coating. Soon that €30k scanner starts to look a bit less useful for acquiring very specific information!

[henrim]

15 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

Also very surprising in how far the technology has come, but also hasn't.

On the positive side, on your scans you can quite clearly tell what the object is. That was not always the case back in 1997 when we got to use such equipment on a CAD/CAM course 

[Prostheta]

Definitely. Even though I am certain that the accuracy in point capture has improved in that time, I would say that the speed of capture in terms of the sheer number of points that can be captured and discriminated via processing in real time is a greater gain. These scanners can acquire several tens of millions of points within a few seconds at full pelt, however what is actually added to the capture data is likely a small fraction of that. The shutter speed required a lot of finessing between the front and the sides of the Ibanez S' scan. That was a test run for the Horizon, and I figured out how to specifically extract what I needed.

None of the original scan data exists in the model. I needed to establish the flat top plane's perimeter and cross-sections of the "carve" contour radiating from that to the edges. Overlaying them both shows that how I interpret the original shape to have been pre-sanding post-CNC is pretty defensible. Enough so that it could be taken through the same sort of serial obliteration sanding as LTDs tend to get, or detail sanding with an understanding of the carve's features as with more expensive Japanese models.

[henrim]

Yes, and to be honest I believe that even then the machine was capable of producing higher resolution than we could use because of limited computing power. Even with the limited resolution process was slooow. But it was an interesting sneak peak to what future will bring us.

[Prostheta]

I prefer to look at it from a more conservative point of view in terms of managing expectations. Technology will always progress and refine itself, but knowing what is workable and achievable at any one time is far more practical. When I was working on the Stratford CTRL groundworks remediation and contaminated ground management projects back in the UK, I had introduced DGPS handhelds that promised all manner of things from the presentations and datasheets. In reality, not so much. If you've got a scientist trekking across a muddy lunar-like landscape trying to acquire a 10cm accurate datapoint for a gas sampling point....you know you're not really going to get that in the real world. Still, better than 10-15m of straight GPS is always good and enough to validate sample drilling locations. I love and I hate tech.

[mistermikev]

15 hours ago, Prostheta said:

A small update on this one, more in how it is progressing as an overall objective arc. I've probably mentioned that I am studying another degree in CAD, including 3D scanning and a number of other subjects. Part of this is a small (relatively speaking) project bringing together multiple aspects into one demonstrative project. Mine is focusing on the design of production and manufacturing techniques for scaling a prototype out to a repeatable efficient....you know the sort of line here....

Whilst I am not moving in the direction of manufacturing instruments, my experience of developing manual and CNC processing led me to using the carved top Mirage/Horizon prototype. It brings together almost all study areas, most importantly applying them in a practical real world manner rather than leaving them as a theoretical study that doesn't really leave you with the important hands-on experience. Anyway.

I scanned the contours of an ESP Horizon using a Creaform HandySCAN 3D laser scanner which produced a point cloud that VXElements can post-process into features and meshes directly Inventor/SolidWorks, or as a mixture of meshes and primitive geometry in standard file formats like STL/STEP/IGES, etc. The objective was to derive basic geometry and contour information in order to recreate the top contours from a series of sweeps, network surfaces, etc.

 

Normally this scanner can derive a mesh to 0,25mm with depth information highly dependent on surface readability. Gloss surfaces introduce a lot of noise, so I had to lean heavily into the post-processing interpretation of the mesh. For example, the software can identify planes and sections of cylinders with a reasonable degree of reliability but with a noisy surface this gets a lot more variable to the point that manual intervention is necessary. The example above is heavily treated with defeaturing, hole removal and all sorts of surface recovery. Raw scan data tends to be more like this....the "orange peel" looks of the surfaces is the scanner's laser refracting within the clearcoat, giving highly variable depth information:

 

 

It's not bad, and enough to get a good headstart on deriving contour information as long as you have a mind for reverse-engineering....my Ibanez S that I scanned here shows that there's a lot more free-form contouring than ESP who really seem to go for predictable geometrically-based features.

i concur your cad skills are really great.  also... that top... to get such fine flame - would be a great top!

[Prostheta]

Thanks. I am still having some minor issues with the top in terms of making the seams close. This isn't anything important as long as I can slice it into a series of 2D contours for swift 2.5D machining. It may affect virtualisation/visualisation and some of the subtractive modelling processes since they are not closed solids, but hey. It achieves the aim it needs to.

Even with simultaneous 5-axis machining of a fine contour with a ball end mill as an option, I still think that it is an excessive amount of machine cycle time when a trained sanding operator aware of what a carve is meant to achieve can concentrate the final shaping and dress work, etc. in far less time than a CNC fiddle-farting around contours to tenths of a mm. A lot of this project is highly theoretical since even if I produce one proof of concept, it will not go through the same sort of processes as I will be discussing in the writeup from a manufacturing viewpoint. For example, workholding jigs using either pneumatic clamps or vacuum for efficient part-to-part changeover, ideally working on a CNC with a split bed. Not sure if the Biesse Rover C6 has split bed as an option like the Homag/Weeke Venture 316L did. This gets to being beyond the scope of my project work very quickly....not sure if I should waste energy on producing theoretical throughput and cost analysis....although the autistic side of me is willing to go feet first, just because.

Speaking of Maple tops....my original guitar's top was surprisingly high grade, but not eye-poppingly gauche like some. No idea how I would try and acquire such a piece since it was both subtle and high grade.

[Prostheta]

I don't have a hell of a lot to update on, however whilst I am waiting to find the most opportune time to paint the two bodies, I'm progressing the carved top Mirage as the basis of a manufacturable product desktop study. That is, 3D modelling, manufacturing schematic production, the 3D scanning and all of that other degree stuff. I'm also touching on fault-tolerant CNC pneumatic workholding jigs, but enough about me

 

There are still a few bugs to work out, plus a number of design changes to fulfil. One being that the neck is to be 22 fret rather than 24, plus the bridge and pickup locations moving because of this. The lower cutaway nicks the location of the pickup ring, which obviously wasn't a problem in the original HSS version.

[mistermikev]

On 5/11/2023 at 11:15 PM, Prostheta said:

 

Speaking of Maple tops....my original guitar's top was surprisingly high grade, but not eye-poppingly gauche like some. No idea how I would try and acquire such a piece since it was both subtle and high grade.

I have read that very close flame like this was much more desirable to violin makers (for backs) and is considered as part of the grading process (ie something that would contribute to bumping a top into 4/5A territory).  Idk how accurate that is but I've always found it very appealing.  have a chunk in my garage that is very tight like that... saving for a special occassion as I think it's a lot more rare than the typical flame... and that contributes to its' "specail-ness" for me.  That is a sweet looking top there!

[Prostheta]

Look at images of flamed violin backs and you don't tend to see cathedral grain lines, leading me to think that quartersawn is preferable. I have no idea to be fair, since hollow bodies just haven't come into my area of work. It would make sense though. My ESP showed a lot of that, so it was probably a nice riftsawn/flatsawn piece. Beyond the cosmetics, I don't have a real preference if I had to choose. That being said, if a nice curlyish birdseye set became available during a period when I actually could afford it, maybe.

[mistermikev]

On 5/18/2023 at 7:33 AM, Prostheta said:

Look at images of flamed violin backs and you don't tend to see cathedral grain lines, leading me to think that quartersawn is preferable. I have no idea to be fair, since hollow bodies just haven't come into my area of work. It would make sense though. My ESP showed a lot of that, so it was probably a nice riftsawn/flatsawn piece. Beyond the cosmetics, I don't have a real preference if I had to choose. That being said, if a nice curlyish birdseye set became available during a period when I actually could afford it, maybe.

don't know much about them either (violins), so on that note I read a few articles and afa I can tell there isn't a strong preference for qtr sawn other than for the top, at least according to those sources.  Like anything else I'm certain it varies by builder.  was surprised to learn that quilt and even birdseye are oft used for backs as well.  Sounded like it was more for ornamental qualities than anything else tho.  who can fathom the mind of the violin maker!?

[Bizman62]

9 hours ago, mistermikev said:

there isn't a strong preference for qtr sawn other than for the top

The mechanics of acoustic stringed instruments are very different to those of electric ones, especially when it comes to the body. The sound chamber isn't just a random hollow space, the size, shape, material choices all affect to the output. Traditionally the tops are spruce since it's very resonant and it's quartersawn for strength. The bottoms are of hardwood since it bounces the vibrations back similarly to the echo from a rock cliff/canyon - you don't get much echo from yelling to a forest! The thickness of the body matters as well: A thin body doesn't have enough space for the sound to mature whilst in a body too thick the bouncing sound doesn't reach the sound hole.

As for quarter vs. slab sawn I've heard about it being a question about maturing the instrument. As you know, acoustic instruments have to be "played in" before their sound reaches its full potential. And they also may age and lose some of the richness of the sound. That's why many concert guitarists have a concert instrument for gigs and a new one at home: The new one is still "raw" but it will get there by the time the old one starts to get tired. We're talking about a decade or two long cycles here. Slab sawn wood reaches that maturity sooner so for a beginning artist or for a quick replacement that may be a better option to get going. But they will also wear out sooner. For a home player that's not an issue, any guitar may last a lifetime as there's not that many playing hours. There's some difference if you play eight hours a day or just when you feel like it!

Now you may ask why Stradivarius violins still are so valued. Haven't they been played to death during these 350 years? One might think that only the best of them have survived but at least to my surprise about half of them still exist! One explanation is that the woods for those violins were growing during the Little Ice Age which caused the trees grow slow and very tight grained. Such timber is very hard to find these days. Also, Stradivari could choose the very best woods - 1100 violins is a respectable amount but those were built during a lifetime, not annually. And the few competitors didn't build any larger numbers either. Not to mention that the entire wood using population was just a tenth of that of today but the forests were vast and the trees were old and huge.

[Prostheta]

I can't say either way, however for my own purposes I am idly considering which direction to hunt for any sort of Maple top. I can see properties of the original's that indicate what sort of cut it was from and maybe guide myself that way. It isn't too important. I do want to avoid those silly high grade PRS-type tops that are so tight they have no real character to them. That's why a birdeye with a bit of wild curl introduced would be great. This is getting a little ahead of myself as well, because what is available at the time will be available at that time. I don't imagine starting this project physically until at least next year, and I know that money is terribly tight because of my time out of work to study. Things are nice in theory, but you can only stare into your navel for so long.

[mistermikev]

4 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

The mechanics of acoustic stringed instruments are very different to those of electric ones, especially when it comes to the body. The sound chamber isn't just a random hollow space, the size, shape, material choices all affect to the output. Traditionally the tops are spruce since it's very resonant and it's quartersawn for strength. The bottoms are of hardwood since it bounces the vibrations back similarly to the echo from a rock cliff/canyon - you don't get much echo from yelling to a forest! The thickness of the body matters as well: A thin body doesn't have enough space for the sound to mature whilst in a body too thick the bouncing sound doesn't reach the sound hole.

As for quarter vs. slab sawn I've heard about it being a question about maturing the instrument. As you know, acoustic instruments have to be "played in" before their sound reaches its full potential. And they also may age and lose some of the richness of the sound. That's why many concert guitarists have a concert instrument for gigs and a new one at home: The new one is still "raw" but it will get there by the time the old one starts to get tired. We're talking about a decade or two long cycles here. Slab sawn wood reaches that maturity sooner so for a beginning artist or for a quick replacement that may be a better option to get going. But they will also wear out sooner. For a home player that's not an issue, any guitar may last a lifetime as there's not that many playing hours. There's some difference if you play eight hours a day or just when you feel like it!

Now you may ask why Stradivarius violins still are so valued. Haven't they been played to death during these 350 years? One might think that only the best of them have survived but at least to my surprise about half of them still exist! One explanation is that the woods for those violins were growing during the Little Ice Age which caused the trees grow slow and very tight grained. Such timber is very hard to find these days. Also, Stradivari could choose the very best woods - 1100 violins is a respectable amount but those were built during a lifetime, not annually. And the few competitors didn't build any larger numbers either. Not to mention that the entire wood using population was just a tenth of that of today but the forests were vast and the trees were old and huge.

not sure it's accurate to say the only old violins that are sought after are strats... just like guitar this is a point that violin players debate to the death.  You can find studies where they do blind testing and conclude that violin players can't tell the dif... and others that try to explain why old violins sound better.  it is eerily parallel to the guitar.  Similarly you find (acoustic) guitar builders who swear that the ornamental flamed maple back and sides don't sound as good as the plane mahog/koa/cocoboa/all-sorts.  and others who insist there is magic in the variation in density of flamed maple.  anywho, getting off into the weeds here on such a subjective topic, and off topic from prostheta's thread... I'm sure the top he will choose will be unique and outstanding!

[Bizman62]

4 hours ago, mistermikev said:

not sure it's accurate to say the only old violins that are sought after are strats... just like guitar this is a point that violin players debate to the death.

Yeah, I know. I chose that because everyone knows them. Anyhow, the points were that in the 17th century it was much easier to find the ultimate grade wood basically in your backyard forest, within walking distance. And that in acoustic instruments the grain direction means much more than in electric ones, especially when talking about quality and properties that don't change too rapidly.

9 hours ago, Prostheta said:

I do want to avoid those silly high grade PRS-type tops that are so tight they have no real character to them.

That reminds me of a fretboard Veijo showed us last Saturday. As he said, that kind of wood shares opinions and it seemed to me that he wasn't sure whether he liked it or not. The board in question was ebony but instead of being the classic pitch black or the more modern wood saving version with pale stripes it was all flecked and spotted. We students looked at it in awe as it was so unique. But agreed, a fretboard that loud definitely has to be the king, the rest of the guitar being modest or even painted.

[Prostheta]

I take it that is Veijo Rautia?

Ebony with striping to it like that has a unique property in that when polished like glass, the not-black areas gain a glassy 3D depth. It's a good opportunity to treat it differently to jet black Ebony, or worse, dye it black. Many years ago I made a 7-string neck with an "Indian" Ebony fingerboard that had marginal brown striping, and that polished up like an Ebony version of Tiger Eye. Very amazing.

[Bizman62]

2 hours ago, Prostheta said:

I take it that is Veijo Rautia?

Yupp. And despite being retired from business he still likes to get some extra pay by "teaching" us.

Striped wood is appealing to most, but this one had random oval dots the size of a fingertip.