Scales

[Hammermc]

Hi

I`ve been playing guitar for almost 2 years and now I`ve came to a point where I have no idea what to do next.So I though why not learn scales and here we come to the main question to you guys : Could you say which of the scales are really important for a guitar player and from which should I start my learning ??

[Phil Mailloux]

Learn the 5 patterns of the major scale and practice them like a maniac until you can improvise anything anywhere on the neck on any major scale(B,D, G# ect..)

Then learn the minor, then pentatonic, then wichever one you like better. Before you know it you'll master the fretboard like a pro and will play much faster.

I used to sit in front of the TV all night just going up and down the neck praticing scale patterns. easy and fast way to get better.

[Snork]

i agree with the major scales. however i say you should immediatly learn dorian AKA pent. with 2 added tones. and you should throw the blues scale notes in there. then i say you should learn the third mode....uhhh crap what is it.....its not mixolydian. whatever. learn the 7 modes. or screw locrian and just learn the 6 modes. dont take the pentatonic route. you'll wind up just sounding like everyone else.

[GuitarMaestro]

The most important scales are:

1. Pentatonic

2. Major & Minor

3. The Modes

4. Arpeggios or Harmonic & Melodic Minor

[VanKirk]

Which scales to learn depends more on your style you like to play. For blues-rock the minor pentatonic is great and widely used in many styles.

Once I learn the box patterns along the neck for a scale, I try to find ways of sliding in and out between 2 then 3 patterns, etc...

I also like to learn the scales on single strings and use the box patterns and single string scales and mix the two. Then I try playing scales 2 & 3 notes at a time.

As I'm learning the scales I try and make sure to figure out good rythm patterns to jam over with the scales.

It's easy to get more involved playing scales/lead style while your rythm/chord progressions suffer so be sure to practice both.

This is just how I like to practice but there's lotsa ways.

Hope this helps

[Snork]

The most important scales are:

1. Pentatonic

2. Major & Minor

3. The Modes

4. Arpeggios or Harmonic & Melodic Minor

dude....

major minor are in the modes. major is ionian and minor (i dont know) its the 6th mode.

pentatonic is dorian except dorian is broader.

arpeggios are broken chords and you use certain arpeggio shapes for different things. i think your confusing 2 things. as for diminished stuff and melodic minor... i just wouldnt worry about it.

learn the modes in all 5 patterns. you'll have the fretboard MASTERED then.

[Jivin]

im not trying to be a smartarse, infact i think im wrong, but arent the different positions/patters of.. the pentatonic scale for example, called modes?

so if your playing the 3rd position of the pentatonic and your friend is playing the 1st position your both playing hte same scale, only in different modes?

im a bit of a know-nothing when it comes to theory... i know the 5 positions of the pentatonic and thats it besides basic music and guitar theory... :|

I am in the process of learning more though

edit:

to the thread starter... definitely listen to what these other guys are saying, but one thing i found that cant hurt is just running up and down chromatic scales(s) ? not sure if thats what they re called, but...

E -----------------------------------------------1-2-3-4

B --------------------------------------1-2-3-4---------

G -----------------------------1-2-3-4------------------

D --------------------1-2-3-4---------------------------

A -----------1-2-3-4------------------------------------

E --1-2-3-4---------------------------------------------

might help to build a bit of strength you would need to blaze around on all the cool scales your learning. of course just practicing the scales would do a good job too... but this is more generic

[Snork]

that is not a a chromatic scale. and no those are NOT modes. they are the same 5 notes repeated up the neck. I bet you guys didnt know that. what you are playing is the SAME 5 notes OVER AND OVER. penta (5) tonic 5 tone scale. hexatonic I.e is a blues scale with an added note.

I dont have time to explain modes but basically play the corresponding mode and you can play in any key to any song. I.e G major song...

you can play g ionian or e minor scale (encompassing the pentatonic)

[Jon Bell]

I dont have time to explain modes but basically play the corresponding mode and you can play in any key to any song. I.e G major song...

you can play g ionian or e minor scale (encompassing the pentatonic)

Remember G Ionian and E Aeolian are two very different things. I wouldn't get in the habit of thinking the G major scale is the same as the E minor scale which is the same as the C lydian scale, etc. I think its very confusing in the long run.

The different scales may contain the same notes but they have different degrees of stability. In G Ionian G is the most stable and F# the least.

G Ionian (major)

Most stable

G

D

B

E

A

C

F#

Least stable

But in E Aeolian although the notes are the same they are in a different order of stability.

E Aeolian (minor)

Most stable

E

B

G

D

F#

A

C

Least stable

Answering the original post I would learn the pentatonic scale as it's a good starting point and good fun to use.

[Snork]

i didnt SAY that they were the same. they correspond to eachother.

what are you talking about.... stability????

please explain.

[Jon Bell]

i didnt SAY that they were the same. they correspond to eachother.

what are you talking about.... stability????

please explain.

Tonal systems have hierarchical structure. The most stable tone is the tonic (if you are playing over a G chord a G note wil sound good). The other stable tones are 3 and 5 (B and D in the key of G major). So in terms of what notes will sond good over a G major chord G is the best, then D, then B. All three are stable in that they sound finished and resolved, so if you are going to end a lick or line over a G major chord these three will sound the best.

All other tones are unstable and will naturally want to resolve to one of the stable tones. Unstable tones generally resolve downwards: 2 (A) resloves to 1 (G), 4 ( C ) resloves to 3 ( B ), 6 (E) resloves to 5 (D). However the most unstable diatonic tone, 7 (Fsharp), resolves up to 1 (G). These are the natural resolutions for the G major (Ionian) scale.

What I meant in my previous post is that is you treat all the modes as being the same as the parent major scale you will resolve to the wrong notes.

[keithb]

Start with the minor pentatonic scale. Then learn the 5 'patterns' (they're not modes!) of that scale. Then learn the minor (Aeolian) and major (Ionian) scales. Then learn the rest of the modes of the major scale. Practice them with different fingerings, in different keys, etc

I agree with j789 - don't get hung up on C major == A minor, etc, you'll just confuse yourself.

Also, here's a clever mnemnic for the names of the modes:

I Don't Practice Like Michael AngeLo (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian) - credit goes to Junebughunter for that one

[Snork]

i get what your saying. but i wouldnt say stability as much. because think about it. the 6th sounds good in some cases. hendrix used it well. but infused with dorian in just regular situations it sounds like ass unless you slur over it. you need to use the strange notes of the scale to make it sound good. but i wouldnt necessarily say stability wise its that much different. for example the 9th. its not the worst not to end on at all. i use it for a lot of funk riffs.

[Jon Bell]

i get what your saying. but i wouldnt say stability as much. because think about it. the 6th sounds good in some cases. hendrix used it well. but infused with dorian in just regular situations it sounds like ass unless you slur over it. you need to use the strange notes of the scale to make it sound good. but i wouldnt necessarily say stability wise its that much different. for example the 9th. its not the worst not to end on at all. i use it for a lot of funk riffs.

Well its a system that gives a very safe sound, but you're right the others intervals can sound good and usually make things much more interesting. The 6th can sound very cool but it will never sound as "stable" as the root.

[Snork]

no i totally understand. i appreciate the system. its smart. yeah if your trying to be pentatonic safe stay in the root 3rd 5th 7th.

[Joey]

E FLAT SUPER SHARP DOUBLE WHOPPER JR. MIXOLOCRIAN!

[Jivin]

that is not a a chromatic scale. and no those are NOT modes. they are the same 5 notes repeated up the neck. I bet you guys didnt know that. what you are playing is the SAME 5 notes OVER AND OVER. penta (5) tonic 5 tone scale. hexatonic I.e is a blues scale with an added note.

well, despite the fact I was wrong I still think its a good thing to practice

and I think your skills in musical theory and the use of capitals to emphasise things are needed in the Zakk Wylde camp snork, cause now ive been told its not a chromatic scale, i was thinking and im pretty sure it was zakk who said that it was... no idea where

in a guitar magazine? or a video interview or something

meh

[westhemann]

the difference between what you posted ,jivin,and the chromatic scale is that on the "b" string the chromatic scales moves away from the headstock a fret...you know...because of the way a guitar is tuned

i don't know much about theory but i was just looking at that last night

[Jon Bell]

E||--------------------------|--------------------------|

B||--------------------------|--------------------------|

G||---------------------------|-----------------------0--|

D||--------------------------|--------0--1--2--3--4-----|

A||-----------------0--1--2--|--3--4--------------------|

E||--0--1--2--3--4-----------|--------------------------|

--------------------------|--0--1--2--3--4--||

--------------1--2--3--4--|-----------------||

--1--2--3--4--------------|-----------------||

--------------------------|-----------------||

--------------------------|-----------------||

--------------------------|-----------------||

That would be a chromatic scale but because you are picking in groups of 5s it changes all the picking directions (sometimes you start with a down, sometimes an up). Its an ugly pattern to play so I'd stick with Jivin's original scale pattern as it's great for a finger exercise.

[Snork]

----------------------------------------------- 1 2 3 4-----

---------------------------------       1 2 3 4-

----------------------------- 2 3 4 5----

-------------------- 3 4 5 6---------------

----------- 4 5 6 7------------------------

---5 6 7 8- -------------------------------

thats what a proper chromatic scale looks like. you use the first notes on every string for sweeping and some nice sounding jazz chords. not on the b to e string it is the same. this is correct.

[wylde1919]

Snork I think that telling people not to use pentatonic scales is about the most irresponsible thing you could do. I'm all for diatonic, hexatonic, chromatic, and any other type of scale you can think of. However the pentatonic does have it's place, and to ignore it would be like a jazz head ( as you proclaim to be) ignoring the "bop scale". My advice to the original poster would be to learn whatever scales you come across. YOu may use 'em you might not. Your best be tis to train your ear to what they call relative pitch (I.e. if i give you a starting tone you can recognize or sing any interval asked of you from that pitch in tune). That will teach your ear to "read". YOull get more mileage out of that than you will with scales alone.

[Jon Bell]

----------------------------------------------- 1 2 3 4-----

---------------------------------       1 2 3 4-

----------------------------- 2 3 4 5----

-------------------- 3 4 5 6---------------

----------- 4 5 6 7------------------------

---5 6 7 8- -------------------------------

thats what a proper chromatic scale looks like. you use the first notes on every string for sweeping and some nice sounding jazz chords. not on the b to e string it is the same. this is correct.

----------------------------------------------- 1 2 3 4-----

---------------------------------------- 2 3 4-5

----------------------------- 2 3 4 5----

-------------------- 3 4 5 6---------------

----------- 4 5 6 7------------------------

---5 6 7 8- -------------------------------

Actually Snork this is the correct way to play a chromatic scale. Note that it is the B and G that are same not the E and B like you said. Remember that all the strings are tuned in fourths except the B and G which are a third (one fret less), so you end up with the pattern above.

And listen to what wylde1919 is saying the pentatonic scale is used all the time in jazz, it is very important - just listen to Steve Khan (a jazz guitar legend!).

[El Dangerouso]

I see this question has sparked some discussion.

First, to answer your original question, I think someone should have found out what music you like to play most. That would most certainly drive the "what scale to learn" question.

That aside, the general discussion seems to be on track. The major/minor pentatonic scales have the same five "box" positions (fingerings). They are only two notes per string and pretty easy to memorize. Learning these patterns will also help your right hand as the two note per string pattern lends itself to pure alternate picking.

These two scales musical value is all out of proportion to the difficulty to learn. They are everywhere, in pretty much every style of music. If you learn the fingerings for one, you learn the fingerings for both, and can solo in ANY major or minor key. Naturally, as discussed before, the tonal center will change between major/minor for the same fingerings, but it's pretty easy to get past the intellectual hurdle, and I don't think this is more confusing in the long run. It actually can open quite a few creative doors.

If you want tab on the fingerings and some lesson-type stuff to get you started on pentatonics, please PM me. I would be glad to help.

[Snork]

pentatonics are encompassed in modes..... the pentatonic minor scale is 5 notes out of the minor scale and the pentatonic major is 5 notes out of the major scale..... I'm not dissagreeing with the use of pentatonics. just learn the actual scales that the pentatonics are pulled from makes a lot more sense. Would you rather have a broader pallate of tones to use or would you rather stick to the ever limited pentatonic scale. btw there are 5 patterns in the major/minor scales. as there are 5 patterns in all modes so the pentatonics are simply offshoots of major/minor. and dorian the second mode is the pentatonic taken to another level. so if you want to play extended blues in lets say C for discussions sake. you could play c major pentatonic (and any note of your chosing in major) to d Dorian (which is a minor pentatonic with added tones) which i like to use with a blues scale combined (which is just 2 more added tones) and then you could always play the A minor pentatonic and any added tones from the minor scale that you'd like.

How ever this correlates in the same way in reverse. A C minor blues you could play the C minor pentatonic with the added tones of a C minor scale and you can play an E ionian or major pentatonic with added tones of ionian...etc

so in no means am i dissing pentatonics. however it is smarter to learn the scales they are pulled from.

and being a zakk wylde fan you of all people should understand his appreciation for modal songs and bebop. vai uses modes ALL THE time, and satch in almost EVERY SINGLE SONG.

modes are like coloring. Why use one marker when you can use a whole pallate of colors while still looking good and professional.

the pentatonic scale in the five patterns is literally hitting the same 5 notes every single pattern. With exception of the different keys. This sounds good for a while but too many playters are limited by this box.

however people complain of being too sterilized by all the scales. You inject yourself in everything you play. you can put just as much expression in a modal song as a blues. just listen to joe pass cover blue bossa or ANY BENSON stuff. the man is insane. If you want to use over drive be my guest but you are just playing the same thing and eventually you'll want to break out of the pentatonic box. trust me its happened to almost all of my friends

[daveq]

Some people find it easier to learn the 5 note scales before anything else. If you think you are that type of person, the pentatonic minor might be a good starting place.

If not, try learning key construction first. Once you understand key construction, you will likely find modal theory easier to understand. I wouldn't focus on any particular mode - learn all of them and how they connect/relate. Once you have learned key construction and the standard modes, you should be able to move about the fretboard with ease. You should also be able to learn songs by ear a bit more easily as well.

From other posts, I gather the Dangerouso is very willing to help people learn this stuff so give him a try. There's also plenty of sources on the web (not forums where you'll just get conflicting ideas ) - let me know if you have trouble finding one.