wylde1919 Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Snork don't even try and preach theory to me son. I have taken years of theory in college, by berkely graduates. As far as my UNDERSTANDING of these things, I was taught using the berkeley pedigogy. So I know my stuff thank you. And as far as learning pentatonic using the "modes" which btw you are using the term incorrectly, then why in the world does BERKELEY PEDIGOGY teach you to play the diatonic scales as well as pentatonic scalesin 5 positions. Just because they contain the same notes doesn't mean you use them the same. And btw when you use the term mode, mode is relevent to not only the scale but the chord structure, when you are saying modes you are actullay referringh to the seven possible starting points of a diatonic scale. O and one last thing until you have played with actual jazz greats (I.e. Stanley Turrnetine, Fredely Wesley, The Heath Bros. feat Tony Purrone, and the Maceo Parker) I don't think you should be lecturing me on Jazz either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STAHLER Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Alls I would say is try learning the CAGED system. You will learn to cover all the fret board and i found it easy to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Dangerouso Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 The University of California at Berkeley is a great school. Sometimes folks also refer to it as Cal. I am sure there are many fine musicians in the San Fransico Bay area (Satch included). I have just always been more impressed with teachers who have studied at the Berklee College of Music in Boston, MA. Sorry, couldn't pass that one up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylde1919 Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 I just claiming to know a little theory not spelling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeB Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 well said wylde!!!! thankyou!!! i was kinda cringing the whole time snork was speaking... i couldnt be bothered correcting him at the time, as i was busy and usually when i go to put things into words it is all wrong!!! but im understanding the mode theory bags more because of Tobin - dangerouso. Thanks man! helps my composition, transopsition, ,and soloing Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylde1919 Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Thanks mikeb, and snork i am honestly not ragging on you man. I just want you to be a little less brash in your advice. I agree with what you are saying about broadening the pallette and that limiting yourself to a five note box pattern can get you into a rut. But believe me I've seen guys put pentatonics to use in some very interesting ways to create some very nice sounding stuff. o and as far a zakk goes, modes are all just gravy to him, his meat and potatoes are the pentatonic scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeB Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 his meat and potatoes are the pentatonic scale exactly, i learnt one or so of his solos, and it was all pentatonic based. as far as interesting pentatonics go - Vai uses them more than you would know. check out For The Love Of God, some great pentatonic use there, in the solos, and in the theme or tune. thats a great song!! also satch's house of bullets has a pentatonic based riff (i think, this is from memory, so i may be mistaken!!) Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 correcting myself on what i and others said about the chromatic scale... here is the real deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 by the way my book says "the words "scale" and "mode" mean the same thing" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 p.s. i am trying to learn a little theory,and in my studies i stumbled across the fact that ,in "hallowed point" ,kerry king's first lead is entirely in C major... so for all of you that claim that king "makes up his own scales"...you can kiss my...nevermind...wrong section Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 @Snork: You again proved your stupidity....You obviously have very little knowledge about music theory and walk in here belittling guys like me and wylde1919 who studied this stuff and know what they are saying. I studied music on MGI(German version of GIT) for more then a 1 year now and before that I had Jazz lessons for about 8 years. You are correct that the major and minor scale is contained in the modes and that the arpeggios are just broken chords, BUT 1. You need to know at least 5 positions for each of these scales in order to use them effectively.... 2. I definately did not get something wrong with melodic and harmonic minor....they are both VERY important if you want to play anything besides simple rock.... 3. You need to be able to play all arpeggios of the four-note chords in five positions if you want to play jazz Therefore my list was just a list of all scales you usually need in guitar playing and in the order in which I would learn them if I was a beginner.... The best thing in my opinion is to start out with the pentatonic it is very easy to play and it's not difficult to get it to sound good -> ideal for a beginner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted May 22, 2004 Report Share Posted May 22, 2004 Modes, arpeggios, myxilodian, etc. etc. I know, after 30 yrs, you'd think I'd know what they mean. Sorry, I'm a guitar player not a musician. What scales should you learn? Like someone mentioned, thats up to you. I guess after a long time you will pick up a bit of everything through songs, like I have. I play mostly by ear and thru tabs. Not saying thats the best advice, because memory does not serve me all that well at times. I could be playing a scale and not know if its myxilodian, lydian or whatever! So I don't profess to be any form of expert. But there ARE some rules to follow. I learned that most blues and rock music is based on the pentatonic scales. Classical, country AND western based on the natural scales (ie. do, re, mi, etc.) , generally speaking. I've taken music theory lessons and I've taken some guitar lessons. In the beginning I could not even fathom how one could put the two together , ie. associating the theory with where everything goes on the fretboard. And even then, learning scales is fine but it all depends on what you can do with those scales thats important. In my opinion you should have your eyes and ears open to anything and everything when it comes to playing your guitar. If you think power chords are enough to get by within your circle of associates and friends then thats fine but you will be limited to many periods of stagnation and maybe a little bit of derision from those "real" musicians out there. A friend of mine was trained to play music from a very early age. He began by taking piano lessons at the age of five and then decided to take up guitar and be a rock player at around 10 yrs. old. I swear I've never personally known someone who was more proficient at playing guitar in my life. He went thru it all, toured around western Canada for years playing pretty much any cover song that was around. It got to a point where there was no more challenge for him. He personally told me that if you stick with pentatonics then thats all you're gonna get, dead end. He said pentatonics were too repetitious and not very gratifying in the long run. After 20 yrs of this he decided to change everything. One of his idols is Chet Atkins who developed and perfected a peculiar style of country playing called "chicken-pickin". My friend got into a band of all seasons, but mostly country music. On to new horizons and he found a lot more satisfaction out of his music. Anyway, I'm just rambling and telling someone else's story. I have no advice for you as far as what to begin learning. In the long run your ears will tell you what you like and don't like. Believe it or not, quite a few of your guitar heros couldn't tell you what notes they are playing and have no knowledge of music theory. Its all in their eyes, ears and heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammermc Posted May 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2004 Thanks a lot guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultraman Posted May 23, 2004 Report Share Posted May 23, 2004 if you want to have fun, find the minor harmonic scales! i just started em. so exotic!i love em! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylde1919 Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Wes, modes are indeed scales in a way, but they only take on thier true modal characteristics when played over the right changes. Its kinda like gremlins needing water. For instance if you are playing a scale with no sharps or flatsand your chord chanes resolve predominatley to C you are playing in the Ionian mode. same exact scale but your changes resolve to A minor and your in Aeolian (forgive spelling please!) Those of course are the ver common form Major and Minor (in that order) but to give it more spice if you resolve to a D minor chord your nnow in Dorian. Another way to make the most out of modes is if you are playing over a one chord vamp like Miles Davis' So What of off Kind of Blue (great album!). His rhythm section is vamping over a single minor chord in variuos inversions to give it spice ( he later modulates but that is unimportant). Lets say the chord was an A Minor for simplictiy's sake. YOu can start off playing an A minor scale. and then to add modal flavor start playin any of the minor sounding modes particurlaly Dorian works. so instead of playing A B C D E F G A you would play A B C D E F# G A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylde1919 Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 sorry for the double post but the dorian also works well in that song for a reason i forgot to mention. The minor chord they vamp is a minor 7. If you notice the dorian has that "natural" 6 and you can lean on that F3 for some really great dissonance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snork Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 1. You need to know at least 5 positions for each of these scales in order to use them effectively.... 2. I definately did not get something wrong with melodic and harmonic minor....they are both VERY important if you want to play anything besides simple rock.... 3. You need to be able to play all arpeggios of the four-note chords in five positions if you want to play jazz response to 1: I in fact have ENCOURAGED learning the WHOLE pattern. Response to 2: I totally disagree with that statement. Response to 3: Yes you should learn the four note chord arpeggios. but you can make up other arpeggios that aree more complex than that as most people do in jazz. Response to you calling me an idiot: Just thoroughly embarrasses yourself and shows your lack of maturity. those last few statements you made were totally irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Snork this is the absoultey last time that I even bother to correct your posts as you usaually just flee if you are proven wrong.... response to 1: I in fact have ENCOURAGED learning the WHOLE pattern. This is a lie. Read your own posts and you see that you even advised NOT to learn the pentatonic at all. Response to 2: I totally disagree with that statement. Then you disagree with basically 50% of all guitar solos out there. In blues and jazz the melodic minor scale is very important. In Jazz and Heavy Metal you could nearly not do WITHOUT the harmonic minor scale. What would you play over dominants in jazz? What about all the classical influneced rock and metal? Response to you calling me an idiot: Just thoroughly embarrasses yourself and shows your lack of maturity. That is true. But I saw enough posts where you proved this prejudice and I am definately not the only one in this forum that thinks that most of your rambling is quite misinformed....As I was new to these forums I even defended you but I soon learned that the general attitude towards you is justified. This still does not make it right to call you an idiot I agree with you here. And if you want to talk about good manours then PLEASE read your reply to my opiginal post again. Yes you should learn the four note chord arpeggios. but you can make up other arpeggios that aree more complex than that as most people do in jazz. You are right here but a beginner should definately leanr the four note arps FIRST. . those last few statements you made were totally irrelevant. The last few statements were the one that are MOST relevant to the topic because they are my opnion on which scales to learn and in which order. Here it is for you again: Therefore my list was just a list of all scales you usually need in guitar playing and in the order in which I would learn them if I was a beginner.... The best thing in my opinion is to start out with the pentatonic it is very easy to play and it's not difficult to get it to sound good -> ideal for a beginner The botom line is: Snork I have nothing against you but as you see I am not the only person that is upset by your posts in this thread. The problem is that you don't know much about music yet which is evident from your posts but you think you have the right to correct people that learn music for quite some time and work as musicians in a "Hey idiots I know it ALL" way....I have no problem being corrected, but if many corrections are WRONG and lead a beginning player in the false direction then it is too much for me to keep silent.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Wes, modes are indeed scales in a way, but they only take on thier true modal characteristics when played over the right changes. man i know nothing of theory...i just have some goofy theory book that says they are the same...you know,like ham and canadian bacon are the same thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylde1919 Posted May 25, 2004 Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 Wes you definately don't want to get in to an argument with me over canadian bacon versus ham becuase i studied for like three years at the calgary institute of bacon............................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammermc Posted May 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 wow!!!! i didn`t expect it to be such a live topic and I see that some of you focused on arguing. Now then, post your propositions or opinions in response to the main question as I think that was the real point of this topic. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylde1919 Posted May 25, 2004 Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 my apologies for the thread hijack hammer. I'll just reiterate my personl opinion. Learn your pentatonic scales in 5 positions. and then your Diatonic scales in 5 positions. Someone also mentioned the harmonic and melodic minors. Learn the Harmonic first as the melodic minor will make a litle bit more sense to you then. from there any other scales you may learn (such as the blues scale, hexatonic scale or the "bop" scale) will be super simple. PM me if I can help you with that. And I think Dangerouso is also pretty accesible and from reading his posts he definnately knows his theory as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted May 25, 2004 Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 . Learn your pentatonic scales in 5 positions. and then your Diatonic scales in 5 positions. I second that. This is definately the best way to do it. First pentatonic then the diatonic scale. And if you are learning the´Dieatonic try to think of the different patterns as modes already as this will help you later on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STAHLER Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 If you would like some scale pattens, PM me and i will e-mail you some Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcamp67 Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 If I may be so bold as to jump in the deep end here and dogpaddle with the Olympic swimmers.... If you havent done it already, the MOST important thing you can do is to learn and commit to memory exactly where every note on the fretboard is. This will make learning the scales infintely more easy, and relating the scales to the progession more simplified. I played for a few years, and struggled to memorize scales (generally learning "patterns" rather than the scale itself) before I sat down over the course of 1 week and learned the entire fretboard map (one string per day, don't make it hard on yourself!! ). I have been able to learn scales, rather than memorize patters, ever since then. Second most important thing you can do.......... HAVE FUN!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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