MasterMinds Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 For setting frets, the scale length makes frets larger. But when talking about the tension required on a string to reach an open note on a larger scale length, it is important to consider the distance from the nut to the tuning peg - because this is part of the tension of the string. I was wondering if anyone has seen (links?) guitars (not basses) with a scale length larger than 25.5 inches The reasons are I would like more room between the 24th fret and the bridge, because my hands are large and often bump the bridge while strumming. If there's other solutions to this problem let me know. I would have to extend to 30 inches (part of this can be achieved by symmetrical tuning pegs) just to gain one inch of strumming space. Not the greatest method in the world. Solutions anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatientZero Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Baritone guitars typically have 27+ in scale lengths. Given that everybody and their mom is playing Baritone or 7 string, you should be able to find a good bit of info. Keep in mind though, if you don't want to go with a baritone, you're looking at some obscenely tight strings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 It might help if you shortened your neck, so that the bridge is farther back on the body. It would take some getting used to, but you could use a normal scale length, and have more room to strum when the body is laying comfortably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 The distance from nut to machine head has no impact whatsoever on the string's tension. Any guitar string I've seen is plenty long for a 27" scale neck, so you should be in the clear. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Ditto to what Greg said. If you go for a 27" scale length you'll probably want to use light gauge strings to keep tension down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterMinds Posted March 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Devon Headen - By shortening the neck you mean using a 22 or 21 fret instead of a 24? I do need a 24, otherwise I'd get another .8 inches or so, but it's a requirement because many songs i play need those notes! Is that what you meant or is their some other thing I am missing? Thanks for the 27 idea - I was thinking how much I can get the string tension without breaking on a nice bend. I use high E 9's normally and am fine with those, I guess the tension is not so much greater for another 1.5 inches The main thing is I need to make room for myself - I do this by using less pickups (since I don't need but one awesome one anyways, plus a sustainer maybe) and I am going with a fixed bridge, a nice small one so it isn't in the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Going to a longer scale length will give you about 1/8" per. extra 1/2" of scale length, and it sounds like you are lookin for a lot of room. Have you conscidered maybe only having a curved end on the fretboard? It may give you a little extra room on the lower strings and feel more comfortable. I am assuming you are not playing the lower strings that high on the fretboard. I have used thicker fretboards to move the strings away from the body, which to me at least feels roomy. It sounds like you are on the right track with a smaller fixed bridge, maybe a wrap around TOM (bridge/tail in one) would be a bit cleaner fit. You might look to Bass designs as they tend to really try to make room for finger style play in that area of the instrument. Peace, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatientZero Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 "The distance from nut to machine head has no impact whatsoever on the string's tension. " Sorry Greg, maybe I was a little unclear, What I was talking about, is the overall scale length. Lengthening the distance between nut and bridge will increase tension to create the same pitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borge Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 has anyone played a baritone in standard tuning? i guess it sort of defeats the purpose of a baritone (unless ur mastermind) i think i have reasonably large hands (27cm (10 1/2") span ) and i have no problem with my hand hitting anything maybe trying to changing ur technique would be an easier solution or maybe i dont have big hands i dunno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 PatientZero- I was responding to MasterMinds, who in the first post, indicated that the distance from nut to tuning peg will affect tension, which it will not. You're of course absolutely right that increasing distance from nut to bridge WILL result in tension considerations. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 If you want to go with 30" there's no way you'll be able to use a standard E tuning. Your high-E will break. Some combination of slightly longer scale and shorter neck should work for you. For example, on Strats the neck usually joins the body (neck pocket) at the 16th fret; maybe go with 26" or 27" and have the neck join the body at the 15th or 14th fret. Something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 (edited) And you researched 5,000 guitars you said, and never bumped into a Baritone or extended scale length guitar??? Here example of Ibanez 30" scale length 7 (eh! 8) string from Meshuggah. And no, you won't find these in you regular guitar store. But as your problem lays in bridge part of your guitar, you might want to move the bridge further back, and go for design similar to this. Edited March 31, 2005 by RGGR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marzocchi705 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Dude, thats got 8 hehe. What are baritones normaly tuned to is it B? Im thinking about building one in the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dash Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 (edited) looks more like an eight string to me!! edit damn beaten by 3 minutes!! Edited March 31, 2005 by dash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 (edited) Darn you guys are sharp today. Edited March 31, 2005 by RGGR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marzocchi705 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 I think i speak for everyone here when i say '***, mate...' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaga_Mike Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Hey, I am about two days from finishing a 26.5" scale length guitar, and I had all these tension and string length worries, too. I use 10-46 string sets and the tension was a little more than a "standard" scale guitar, but not as drastic a change as I thought it would be (which is a good thing if you ever want to bend a string). In regards to the string length, just make sure you check it before you build. I didn't, and by the time my D string goes from the ferrules, through the body, over the TOM, down 26.5", over the nut, and to the tuner, i don't have any string to spare. In fact, if this were a 27" scale I don't think my strings would fit it. Then again, different string manufacturers might have different lengths. Hope that helps. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Some combination of slightly longer scale and shorter neck should work for you. For example, on Strats the neck usually joins the body (neck pocket) at the 16th fret; maybe go with 26" or 27" and have the neck join the body at the 15th or 14th fret. Something like that. ← That's more like what I meant. Not get rid of the last couple frets, but move the neck to body joint of a few frets. That way the bridge is back farther on the body. You're not adding any space between the 24th and the bridge, but when you rest your arm in a normal playing position it will be farther from the bridge. You might have to modify the cutaways to allow access to the higher frets this way, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterMinds Posted March 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Meshuggah uses detuned guitars, if they tried to tune proper on a 30 inch scale their strings would break. SO that doesn't seem to help much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterMinds Posted March 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 The strings I use now measure 39 inches - given that I won't be running them through the body I should have some space. I would like to go with 27 inches at least, coupled with a small bridge (mine now is a standard floyd which is all in my face) I should be ok. Hey, I am about two days from finishing a 26.5" scale length guitar, and I had all these tension and string length worries, too. I use 10-46 string sets and the tension was a little more than a "standard" scale guitar, but not as drastic a change as I thought it would be (which is a good thing if you ever want to bend a string). In regards to the string length, just make sure you check it before you build. I didn't, and by the time my D string goes from the ferrules, through the body, over the TOM, down 26.5", over the nut, and to the tuner, i don't have any string to spare. In fact, if this were a 27" scale I don't think my strings would fit it. Then again, different string manufacturers might have different lengths. Hope that helps. Mike ← Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marzocchi705 Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Excuse me if im wrong but is the whole point of baritone guitars to tune down in pitch and retain proper string tension? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabjet Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 This may be completely off base, but i am a new builder...so would it be at all possible to down-tune some strings - for example, use the 4th or 5th string instead of the standard E and tune it higher so it could handle the tension of a longer scale length guitar (such as a 27 or a 30) Sorta what i was thinking of...if i could ever figure it out... eternally confused, RabJET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1nf1d3l Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 man, ill tell you right now. you are NOT going to be able to get a baritone legnth neck that extreme and tune standard. the only thing I can think of that hasnt been said, is toss on the room you need to the neck, and if you REALLY need that eadgbe tuning, take her down an octave. yea, itll be bassy as hell, but thats about all youre gonna be able to do. make it a 30 inch, or even go to 32 or 34, and tune down a full octave to "bass" eadgbe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Also known as a 6-string bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Excuse me if im wrong but is the whole point of baritone guitars to tune down in pitch and retain proper string tension? ← Not allways, baritone is an instrument that will (usualy) have a sound that is an octave lower than the original instrument, like violin got a baritone cousin, guitars do to. Is just an 6 string designed to be tuned B-B instead of E-E. THe extended scale is used to maintain the string tension the same when using regular gauge strings. Say tunning a 27 scale guitar B-B with 46-10 strings. But you can obtain almost the same results by using thicker gauge, 54-13 with a regular 25.5 neck. My 7 string is 25 scale and I got 54-10 strings and the tension is right on the money. Granted you can tune a 27 or 30 scale to normal pitch, but the tension will be ridiculous on the 30, the 27 will be tight, but playable, and if you got any doubt about this, Perry Ormsby's 7 string is tuned B-E, and the owner loves it. Hope this clears some doubts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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