rokeros Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 (edited) THIS IS MY BIG 1... MY FUTURE IDEA... MODEL... SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN BEATING MY HEART VENTRICLES SINCE I BEGUN MY FIRST PROJECT...................... Some may find this hilarious, and they should, but I want to do something that no one has ever thought possible or would just seem like a whole load of crap.... I want to and there is no stopping my mind on building a series of guitars/basses with all the current technology and theories that mankind have research since the 30's when mr. rickenbacker discovered the electricrified fretted tincan. I know that I have just have only completed my first instrument, but luthiery is truly an addictive hobby all of you guys should understand. But I don't just think of my next build after completeing my first. I go beyond that to the 30th or 1000th guitar! There are just so many options that are avaliable for guitar and I want to try them all out. But then this stream of thoughts shortly ended when a stumbled on an idea that I could maybe combine all these options into one instrument. It sounds immposible I know, since there are different options and styles for different purposes, but what if the best of these compared with their advantages and disadvantages and maybe there could be one model for metal, one for jazz/blues/rockability, one for general rock etc...My mine is literally erupting like a volcano with ideas for my 5 empty years when I move to the UK for university. I have the space, now all I need are the plans, clients and the faith from all you noobs(me...) and pros (too many to mention) to forfill my craziness and desire. I want to build not just someone's dream guitar, but everyone's dream guitar, something that any person would see magnificant in that instrument from the truss rod to the straplocks to the sustain etcetcetcetc....... I would totally understand if you guys thinks I am a lunatic, and I don't blame you guys...I am myself quite overwhelmed to this moment. But I want to open this thread for ideas from finishing to woods to hardware to manufacturing methods and ergonomics in order to forfill the ultimate instrument. for example the other day, I was researching on finishings and neck joints, and who would have guessed that making neck wood contact body wood would increase sustain by 50%??? I mean its stuff and detail like this that I believe that people are missing out and if all the best of the best in guitars and basses are combined into one and not kept to themselves or as a company, then I truly think that the aesthetics, feel, and tone from this monstrosity will be beyond anything or anysomething on this earth. So please guys, I know I am pushing it, but could you guys maybe contribute to this thread and if successful, I think it wouldn't just benefit me, but to all you guys and you never know, may change the whole thinking aspect of fretted instruments to join all of God's created minds into one and share and think outside the box and I dunno. Something might happen.. But to start off and save from hands from numbing on the keyboard, I want to find out which truss rod is the best and currently I know that modern day two way truss rods are the ideal neck fixers and I also know that carbon fiber rods add sustain and make a neck stronger, but what else do you guys know that I don't. Soon when this is all done, I will write it all down in a list and share it to you all for easy reading. And secondly, I heard that using spray guns are better by far than rattle cans. I reasearched on SATA for their guns, but which one is best and why, thanks anyways. I need to shut up before I lose my account by ya, there you go... AsH There are no specific rules regarding posting format, but please don't use any formatting which forces people to scroll sideways - this is extremely annoying, and one of the reasons for restricting image size. Cheers Edited April 20, 2006 by Setch Quote
Setch Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 Impossible task. Also, don't belief half the things (at least) you read or hear. Having direct neck/body contact will not affect sustain by 50%. For every opinion there is a counter, and nobody can 'prove' one way or the other. For every guy who swears by bolt ons, there's one who prefers a set neck. For everyone who prefers the adjustability of a dual trussrod, there's a maker who prefers a compression rod because it removes less wood from, the neck, and is lighter. I could go on, but I think you get the idea. BTW, all this goes tenfold for aesthetics. Remember - you can please all of the people, some of the time, or you can please some of the people all the time, but you can *never* please all the people all the time. Quote
Mickguard Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 To me the idea of a single guitar that does *everything* takes all the fun out of it. But I understand your quest, or at least, part of it. It'd be nice to find that one magical guitar that does *everything* for ME. Quote
rokeros Posted April 20, 2006 Author Report Posted April 20, 2006 Ok I unserstand. Maybe its not just the ultimate guitar, but the ultimate universal guitar in some sense i guess. perhaps to make things simpler, I will seperate the guitar in to guitar(s) for different playing styles and I guess we will go with the UltraversalMetal, Ulttraversal jazz/blues/rockability, UltraversalSustainer, UltraversalClassicRocker etc..Anymore should be added/removed to the Ultraversal List? OKay, starting with the bridge, for metal I think the ideal and universal bridge would be a floyd rose with a tremol-no. Any disagreements. This is in terms of general styles and not personal preferences. Then I think for jjazzy brian setzer stuff I could go for a bigsby of some sort. This is just a rough outline of what I may soon add to my tiny hobbie in the future. then for general rock, then I dunno. Maybe not a trem, something special I am about to discover with the help of you guys. Please carry on guys. Flood this thread with suggestions Quote
al heeley Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 I want to open this thread for ideas from finishing to woods to hardware to manufacturing methods and ergonomics in order to forfill the ultimate instrument 1. Isn't that the point of this whole forum? Too much stuff to put in one post. 2. no surprise that sustain is better when neck wood joins nicely together with body wood. 3. I don't think its much of a shock to peopole that a proper spray gun is better than a rattle can. Good luck though. Quote
rokeros Posted April 20, 2006 Author Report Posted April 20, 2006 (edited) A did a quick 5 min search for guitar sustain and I found many ways unnoticable to the human eye to see that would increase sustain. This is for the UltraversalSustainer: http://www.cleverjoe.com/articles/guitarta..._headstock.html May seem a bit far fetched but it all adds up in the end I guess when all these myths are put together. I also hear that graphite necks are supposidaly able to get good sustain. And that Joint bodies and necks have increase sustain, so maybe a custom graphite neckthrough....I dunno..its making my brain work and this could help; http://www.graphtech.com/prodtusq.htm Quote from Stewmac: High fretwire has a crown height of .045" or more. It may offer more note sustain due to its slightly greater mass, and more fret dressings are possible between refrettings Edited April 20, 2006 by rokeros Quote
fryovanni Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 Hard to read this one is. Sounds like you have a lot of faith in what you read. That said- I like Allied's double acting flat bar truss rods. They are the most compact I have found. The machining is good. The flat bar is a favorite of mine for even distribution of pressure. The best luthiers I have found have a drive to seek out what they need. Lets just say a pretty independant group. Look to ideas from people who want to hand you a guitar they built and have you play it, as opposed to people that want to explain why it is the best guitar ever built. Get inspired by guitars that sound and play well to you, not by ones that sound good on paper. Learn how to add details that strike you as nice looking, and practice with whatever spray gun you choose (so you are used to how it acts). Ask yourself why you are reading this, and not building guitar #2...... Best of luck with the projects! Peace,Rich Quote
thegarehanman Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 Look, what's going to give you sustain is cutting down on vibrations. That's why a heavier headstock "give's you more sustain," it simply makes it more difficult for the strings to vibrate the neck. This is the same reason why you could say graphite rods(which, remember, make the neck stiffer) often increase sustain. There is an inevitable trade off though. By making something stiffer, it will attenuate the lower frequencies off but not the higher frequencies. This will give you a brighter, twangier tone. Some people like that, I, personally, do not. There are ways to counter this more or less. The main thing is you need to understand the fundamental logic behind why you do what you do. Don't take joe blow's advice from some random internet site; it's often unreliable. Use logic and a good knowledge of how guitars work, on every level. Some of you hypothesis will be true in theory, but won't have so much weight when it comes to the real world, others will be right on. You are not going to build guitar #2 and make some huge, groundbreaking guitar. If you want to even get close to that, you're going to have to build a lot of test guitars. Oh, and I think a couple of builders have gotten pretty close to what you want to do. I know these guys aren't that well known, and neither are their guitars, but check out this thing called a "stratocaster" by leo fender, and a "les paul" designed by, you guessed it, les paul himself. In all seriousness, those guitars are pretty universally respected and they're used across the entire spectrum of genres. I find much more satisfaction building a guitar that a few people fall in love with then building a guitar that everyone kind of likes. peace, russ Quote
Setch Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 Again, just because it's written down or spoken, doesn't make it fact. Heavier heads *can* increase sustain. So can using stiff necks and small stiff headstocks. A less debateable fact is that heavy headstocks make neck heavy guitars. Build, don't read. Especially not when the stuff you're reading is aimed at guitarists not builders. 95% of 'technical info' exchanged by guitarists is terrbile psuedo scientific bulldust, and the only way to get solid reliable info is to talk to other builders, and to build yourself to test what works. Quote
thegarehanman Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 A less debateable fact is that heavy headstocks make neck heavy guitars. Excellent, excellent point. This just proves that you really need to be very carefull about thinking over all of the reprocutions of your actions. Quote
rokeros Posted April 20, 2006 Author Report Posted April 20, 2006 (edited) true, true, true. However, this is why I am dicussing with you builders on not on some frets.com or ultimateguitat.com forum. Okay. So to even more simplify more, guys. What do you find in a guitar that will increase sustain huh? We'll move on to other guitars in my mind later. And in MY OWN mind and experience I will judge MYSELF what is best that I want in the UltraversalSustainer. Edited April 20, 2006 by rokeros Quote
Setch Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 Have you actually visitted http://www.frets.com ? I strongly recommend it. Wherever you ask these questions, the people whose opinions matter will tell you the same thing: go and build a dozen guitars, then worry about asking questions. The building process will give you a basis for informed questions, and that will allow valuable, informative answers. Asking 'How do I make the ultimate guitar' is pointless, especially since you are a great many instruments away from mastering the basic construction steps (not a dig at all, it's just that *nobody* nails it after 1 guitar). Quote
SwedishLuthier Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 Simple test for the ”does heavy headstock equals long sustain” question: Take a guitar and test the sustain. Put a metal clamp on the head. Compare. This is my method of learning: Get good avices first. Then testing it, not reading about it. Quote
Mickguard Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 Take a guitar and test the sustain. Put a metal clamp on the head. Compare. I did this the other week...and my conclusion was...that it is indeed difficult to play a neck-heavy guitar. Was there more sustain? Possibly. And it did seem that certain notes rang truer than before. But then, others sounded off. I wish I could find the article I read on this...it compared measured sustain of a Les Paul vs a Stratocaster. I believe they measured the length of the vibrations as their determination of sustain. Well, the Stratocaster won --the vibrations of the strings lasted much longer. Except, the sustain of the Les Paul was much more audible. Quote
rokeros Posted April 20, 2006 Author Report Posted April 20, 2006 Don't worry, I won't do anything amazing until probrably my 10th guitar at least, but I wanted to test these things out as I go along until I feel confident in what I do and whether I should decide to do it as a fun part time job or as a serious life alltering profession(highly unlikely, I want to do product designing) Quote
fryovanni Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 Don't worry, I won't do anything amazing until probrably my 10th guitar at least, but I wanted to test these things out as I go along until I feel confident in what I do and whether I should decide to do it as a fun part time job or as a serious life alltering profession(highly unlikely, I want to do product designing) Give it five or ten years worth of building as a hobby. At least you can enjoy it for that long. When it becomes a job, it is just that. Forget about the finer points of how to do this or that. Get a solid understanding- "the big picture" of how necks, bodys, strings, pickups and so forth work. Then you can consider how different materials or fits or weights or stiffness would play into the part. At that point you could open this sort of conversation(preferably a little more specific, but either way). I am not saying anything is out of reach or out of bounds. It is just kinda silly to discuss things this way, and can actually lead to mis-understanding of what is "good" or "bad". A did a quick 5 min search for guitar sustain and I found many ways unnoticable to the human eye to see that would increase sustain.. I take this as you figured out more about the basic way a neck works, or you have been fed a line of theory(right or wrong). I also hear that graphite necks are supposidaly able to get good sustain. And that Joint bodies and necks have increase sustain, so maybe a custom graphite neckthrough....I dunno..its making my brain work It is a real A= this I think, + B=does this ,= C- So maybe it works like this. Unfortunately A is not a constant, and B is true to a degree, but may be subtractive from other aspects. That may become detrimental to your final goal. C= necks contribution to sustain may improve, but will most definately change the overall sound the instruments produces. Some people say too rigid and continuous construction provides a steril sound that is not pleasant. Now if you build it and like it. Then you would know how it sounds good to you. High fretwire has a crown height of .045" or more. It may offer more note sustain due to its slightly greater mass, and more fret dressings are possible between refrettings If you can't place how much significance that will have in your overall neck design. Or "weigh" it against other factors. It is definately time to study and get a better fundamental knowlege of how these things work. That isn't even the icing on the cake- It is more like a sprinkle . I think your enthusiasm is great. I would love to pass ideas back and forth with you(what I prefer to do v.s. how you prefer). This lets us take our experiences and pass back and forth our findings. Don't get me wrong I see you are really trying to break out a part in each of your progressive posts, but I think you should get down to a basic discussion and focus a bit more. Lets talk about neck construction. Describe your goals, and your initial design idea. Then we can pass modifications or ideas about things that may get you closer to your stated goal. Peace,Rich Quote
Odin Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 Why so crazy about sustain..? I cant remember when i last tried a guitar where lack of sustain was the problem. Quote
Mattia Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 What all those wise folk say; guitars are more complex than that. Sustain has a lot to do with playing style, technique, amplifier choice, in addition to basic stuff like solid construction, fret choice (although, again, depends on the player's touch as well), neck material, stiffness, headstock mass, headstock stiffness, etc. etc. etc. And, just to mess stuff up: long sustain does not automatically equal great tone. They're simply not related in a 1:1 way like that. Quit focussing on the details too much, or you'll lose yourself. You're building an entire instrument. Yes, details matter. They're the difference between a good and a great guitar. But you MUST keep the big picture in mind. Me, I like my necks with CF rods and a dual action rod. Gives me an evenly stiff neck, I like the sound. I use small headstocks, fairly stiff (volute, on the thick-ish side), but not heavy ones. Fingerboard material, well, depends on my mood. Fretwire tends to be medium to medium-jumbo, because it's tall enough, and it prevents stress (ie, pressing too hard) from throwing the guitar out of tune. They work for me. Sustain's no problem, even on massively chambered guitars. Could I get more sustain by modding some aspects? Maybe. Do I really need or actually want more sustain than I've got? Not s'much. Quote
Drak Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 <yawn> Typical newb type of questions, just with a little more zest than normal. And no matter what you decide to build one fine day, you (and I) will always be standing on the shoulders of giants, remember that. You will never create anything in and of yourself that did not originate in some way from some giant of the past, so remember to pay homage and respect to those that came before you and cleared the path for you're 'original' ideas. Quote
fryovanni Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 And no matter what you decide to build one fine day, you (and I) will always be standing on the shoulders of giants, remember that. So you are that little devil on the shoulder, and rokeros must be the little angel. Peace,Rich Quote
Drak Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 Why, I can't believe you would say such a thing. Quote
fryovanni Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 Why, I can't believe you would say such a thing. Just call them as I see them feller Peace,Rich Quote
WezV Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 sorry but you lost me when you said that an ideal bridge solution would be a floyd rose with a tremel-no. Like a very large percentage of guitarists i turn away when see a floyd rose. Its not that i wouldnt use one in the right situation but i wouldnt use one if tone and sustain were my main goals. That calls for a wrap-around LP Jnr style bridge all the way, but then i dont use them often either. There is always a compromise!! I hate it when i see a guitar that claims to combine a tele and a les paul all in one, these are very different sounds and why should a guitar be all things to everyone. Although i have to say there is a british builder called nathan sheppard who is quite close to achieving this and i like to think i have gotten close myself. Quote
crafty Posted April 20, 2006 Report Posted April 20, 2006 Ned Steinberger probably ended the evolution of the solid-body guitar 25 years ago with his graphite-composite basses and guitars. Oh sure, people have played around with MIDI synths and everything else over the last 25 years, but as far as how the instruments are constructed, they've pretty much come as far as they're going to go. People hated the Steinberger, too. Everyone except for recording engineers and techno musicians who love sterility and no balls. Same kind of people who love the Variax. Just because something's state-of-the-art doesn't mean it's the best thing for music. Quote
custom22 Posted April 21, 2006 Report Posted April 21, 2006 Why so crazy about sustain..? I cant remember when i last tried a guitar where lack of sustain was the problem. Its that feeling when you play a fine guitar, where you bend the 18th sting a whole step and a half slowly, and it rings crystal clear the whole way up. Its something I experienced when i bought my PRS. Some people would rather rely on an amp on 10, but some like it from the begining. Quote
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