fookgub Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Ok, I've finally started my first project. I'm building a replacement body for this guitar. I'm using a 1-piece mahogany body blank from Gallery Hardwoods. The initial plan is to fill the grain with black grainfiller then just clearcoat it. Anyway, there's not much else to say, so I'll let the pictures do the talking. Here is the initial spread. I've got my templates (cut them out myself a few weeks ago), the blank, and, just for fun, the body I used to make the templates. I just taped the body to the templates and ran a follower bit along it (eek!). I know some of you are rolling your eyes, but this worked just fine for me. A closeup of the blank: http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/blank.jpg A mockup with a paper outline: http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/mockup.jpg Now, for some fun. I don't have a bandsaw or a thicknesser. I needed both for this project, and a local guy was kind enough to donate the use of his tools (I put an ad out on Craigslist). After trimming the sides down enough to make it fit, we ran it through his DeWalt thickness planer. That thing was a joy to use and produced a very nice surface! Next, it was over to the scroll saw (yup, Drak-style) to cut the shape. It took a little while, but really wasn't bad at all, though I did break two blades in the process. Here's the result, a rough-cut body: http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/sawed.jpg So that's it for now. Next up, I'll be trimming the sides with my router and doing the all the other routs. Just for laughs, here's the template for my next project, a four string bass (yup, I'm addicted already): http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/basstemplate.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted August 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 After moving, setting a new workshop, and doing a whole bunch of other stuff, I finally got some time to work on this guitar body last night. Unfortunately, my router didn’t want to play nicely. Instead, it decided it would be fun to take a couple big bites out of the sides of my guitar. Here are a couple pictures of the problems: Top horn http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/tear5.jpg Back: http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/tear2.jpg http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/tear3.jpg http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/tear4.jpg Big chip taken out: http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/tear6.jpg Luckily the two worst spots are on the back of the guitar. There are a couple chunks missing from the top horn, though… very conspicuous. I’m experimenting with a couple different glue/sawdust combinations to fill the chunks, but I’m afraid my plans for a natural finish may be ruined. Even if I get the color right, the grain won’t be there, which means the fills would show up clear as day if I use the black epoxy grain filler I was originally planning. Anyway, I’m testing a couple different fill + finish techniques on scrap right now, but in the meantime, does anyone have some advice on covering this up? I can’t seem to fit a piece to that big chip on the back, and I’m afraid to rout it square and fill with a block… what it if chips again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeranya Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 just sand around it to make the whole area smooth? make a new design? I'm building an RG style mahogany guitar too right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 I don't use my router to achieve anything closer than 1/8" to "real size" now because of tearout (plus, I'm too lazy to figure out which directions to rout to avoid tearout!). I prefer to trace around templates with a 1/8" tip marker, bandsaw to the outside of the line and spindle sand to the inside of the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 You can probably pop a lot of that grain out with a heat source (soldering iron) so it wont look so jagged in the tear outs. This wont fix it, but it would look better than a deep tear-out. You'll probably have to take a little more off the body, or use the glue / sawdust method. I have no experience with that method though, so I don't recommend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 (edited) I don't use my router to achieve anything closer than 1/8" to "real size" now because of tearout To avoid tear-outs it's necessary to use brand new router bit, high speed setting on the router, and very very shallow passed. It's also adviceable to check the direction of the grain, as direction of routing can have huge effect on the occurance of tear-outs. In some areas you just can wait for it to happen (routing parallel to grain). Tear-outs have happened to me in the past. For planned solid color it's no biggy. Bondo type car filler will take care of that. For stains or natural colors it's wise not to route at all. Chance of tear-outs is simple too big, whatever your technique and precautions. For natural colors and stains bandsaw body close to spec, let Robosander type set-up bring you even closer to final shape, but do final work by hand. The body shown is shot for stain or natural color. No way of saving this without the fixed areas sticking out like sore thumb. Fix the tear-outs and go for solid color. Get yourself a new Mahogany blank and use procedure mention before. Elbow grease is your friend in this build. Edited August 25, 2006 by RGGR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screwdelulu Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 Just a thought: If you want it to be semi natural finish, you can go with a burst-type finish... Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted August 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 Thanks for the comments everyone. It seem that the consensus is to avoid routing on stuff like this. I wish I had known that before. The though of tearout had entered my mind before I started, but I thought it only happened to "other people". Lesson learned... I'll be sanding or possibly microplaning the next one. It's worth the extra to me work to ensure a good result. Since this is just a hobby, the time is much less important than the finished product. And I'm not made of body blanks, you know. Anyway, none of the filling methods I tried produced a result good enough for a natural finish, and the gouges are too deep to simply sand out. Before starting this build, I had planned to test four finish combinations: clear and black grainfiller with clear and translucent black lacquer. I think the translucent black may still be in the cards, but I'll have to wait for the lacquer to show up so I can try it out. Otherwise I'm looking at another metallic blue RG (a burst would be a great idea, except that I just don't like bursts). Jon: I've heard of popping dents out with heat before, but I thought that only worked when the grain was dented in, not torn out. How would you go about trying this? I've got a big soldering iron, but I was thinking I might try a heat gun with a damp rag first. Sound good? Have you done this before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted September 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 Well, I thought it was time for some progress pics, so here we go. The body is basically done. It just needs final sanding before I grainfill with epoxy. It needs a channel routed under the bridge for the piezo wiring, but that's going to have to wait until I can get some mill time at work to cut the matching slot in the bridge. I also need to drill the holes for the pickup mounting rings, neck pocket, strap buttons, and output jack mounting screws. That's coming after the grainfill when I do the test fit. I've decided on clear epoxy for grainfilling, so that should give me a pretty good idea of what the guitar will look like with a natural finish. If the tearouts are too obvious, I'll go with a trans-black finish. Otherwise, I'll stick with natural and call the tearouts "features." Keen observers will notice another "feature"... I took the belly-cut too close to the inside of the upper horn. Not much I can to about that now except to say that it's a custom guitar, and I'll carve it however I want. Top: Back: http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/rg_back.jpg Back, with brass sustain block: http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/rg_back_sb.jpg Control Cavity closeup, with magnets (not glued in yet) http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/rg_cc.jpg Control Cavity closeup, with cover in place (not glued in yet) http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/rg_cc2.jpg Misc hardware, steel control cavity cover, brass sustain block, bridge. Note: the control cavity cover is getting a "pinky hole" drilled into it so it can be popped off the back of the guitar easily. I'm also going to be painting it with (most likely) duplicolor truckbed liner. http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/rg_hw.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 (edited) Top and back look fine....you can always decide to blacken the sides to hide the tear outs. Besides from tear outs your work looks pretty clean. With the experience under your belt you will make an awesome next guitar. Cause there will be more. Edited September 25, 2006 by RGGR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted September 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 Cause there will be more. Got that one right.... I've got my next three projects planned out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanthus Posted October 4, 2006 Report Share Posted October 4, 2006 Cause there will be more. Got that one right.... I've got my next three projects planned out. Hahaha, same here The body is lookin' real sharp, and I love the idea of doing a magnet control cover! I just hope the magnets are powerful enough to stay on... It's looking like you recovered pretty well from the routing accident! Good luck on the rest of the project, I'll be keeping my eye on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted October 4, 2006 Report Share Posted October 4, 2006 (edited) I don't use my router to achieve anything closer than 1/8" to "real size" now because of tearout To avoid tear-outs it's necessary to use brand new router bit, high speed setting on the router, and very very shallow passed. It's also adviceable to check the direction of the grain, as direction of routing can have huge effect on the occurance of tear-outs. In some areas you just can wait for it to happen (routing parallel to grain). Tear-outs have happened to me in the past. For planned solid color it's no biggy. Bondo type car filler will take care of that. For stains or natural colors it's wise not to route at all. Chance of tear-outs is simple too big, whatever your technique and precautions. For natural colors and stains bandsaw body close to spec, let Robosander type set-up bring you even closer to final shape, but do final work by hand. I've had a tear out like this happen once to me - I did 3 flying V body blanks at once and I ran one of them through the router a little too fast If you're going for a natural finish, I say try contouring the horn differently as to minimize the tear out if you don't mind a slightly different shape. I would try to fix the tear out by cutting a thin piece of mahogany veneer, cut it in the shape of the tearout and glue in place. You'd be surprised at how good the fix might look. you could make the tear out a more regular shape to make the fix easier. You don't need a new bit for every project. That's just crazy. All you need is to take your time and take small passes, especially when running the router bit cross grain. Most people use tools with little or no experience and end up with problems like this. When routing, you should always do the cross grain parts first and take it S L O W. The bit bearing doesn't have to touch the template when making the first couple of passes. Firmly grip the piece to be routed and run it by the router bit until the bit bearing touches the template. You shouldn't attempt to touch the template right, unless you're within 1/16" or less from the cut line. Back, with brass sustain block: http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/rg_back_sb.jpg Where did you get the sustain block? Did you make it yourself? I want one! Edited October 4, 2006 by guitar2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted October 4, 2006 Report Share Posted October 4, 2006 You don't need a new bit for every project. That's just crazy. It's $20 investment I'm happy to make. Everytime I use new bit, I'm suprised how well it cuts compared to old worn one. Like said before, it's my insurance fee. So I know if tear-out does happen,....it's not because I didn't want to fork up the $20 for a new bit. Penny wise, pound foolish is saying that comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted October 4, 2006 Report Share Posted October 4, 2006 You don't need a new bit for every project. That's just crazy. It's $20 investment I'm happy to make. Everytime I use new bit, I'm suprised how well it cuts compared to old worn one. Like said before, it's my insurance fee. So I know if tear-out does happen,....it's not because I didn't want to fork up the $20 for a new bit. Penny wise, pound foolish is saying that comes to mind. Or you could buy a more expensive bit and sharpen it when it becomes dull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted October 4, 2006 Report Share Posted October 4, 2006 You don't need a new bit for every project. That's just crazy. It's $20 investment I'm happy to make. Everytime I use new bit, I'm suprised how well it cuts compared to old worn one. Like said before, it's my insurance fee. So I know if tear-out does happen,....it's not because I didn't want to fork up the $20 for a new bit. Penny wise, pound foolish is saying that comes to mind. Or you could buy a more expensive bit and sharpen it when it becomes dull. Yup. I use Freud or Lee Valley bits and use them with proper routing technique. I clean them regularly and you can sharpen them with a diamond file like these: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=...t=1,43072,43077 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted October 4, 2006 Report Share Posted October 4, 2006 Still makes it a $20 investment on $500-1000 custom guitar. Not really an issue, I would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted October 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2006 Hahaha, same here The body is lookin' real sharp, and I love the idea of doing a magnet control cover! I just hope the magnets are powerful enough to stay on... They're little neodymiums... plenty powerful. I'm actually afraid that the cover will be too hard to take off, but I can always drill a couple of the magnets out if I need to. It's looking like you recovered pretty well from the routing accident! Good luck on the rest of the project, I'll be keeping my eye on it. Thanks, I'm pretty happy with how it's turning out. I still have a lot of sanding to do, but I should be up to grainfilling early next week. It's actually only a few hours of sanding, but my free time is at a premium right now. The grainfilling should give a nice preview of what the guitar will look like, so I'll be sure to post pictures of that. Where did you get the sustain block? Did you make it yourself? I want one! I made it. I cut a blank out of 1.5" x .5" brass bar stock with a bandsaw, then milled it to a 1"x3"x.5" rectangle. I drilled the holes on my drill press, but next time I'm using a mill. Brass has a really nasty habit of grabbing drill bits when enlarging holes. The corners were rounded off using a belt sander. I just did it by hand until the piece fit in the hole I had routed for it. The routing templates for the sustain block and battery box were cut on a mill. Anyway, as far as new router bits and all... I think a new bit is a worthwhile investment for a custom guitar. Now that I have a bandsaw, though (note to self: post new bandsaw in tools forum), I'd like to try cutting much closer to the line on my next guitar, then getting the final shape with a microplane template follower. Another thing I might try is using a robo sander to get closer to the line, then coming back with a template following router bit for the last 1/16" or so. Either way, I'd like to minimize the amount of routing on the outside contours of the guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted October 5, 2006 Report Share Posted October 5, 2006 Anyway, as far as new router bits and all... I think a new bit is a worthwhile investment for a custom guitar. Now that I have a bandsaw, though (note to self: post new bandsaw in tools forum), I'd like to try cutting much closer to the line on my next guitar, then getting the final shape with a microplane template follower. Not shure what you mean by microplane template follower. Just cutting with bandsaw about 1/4" close to final line would be sufficient. I wouldn't go closer, as saw band sometimes wobbles a bit......so as safety zone I would say nothing less then 1/4". Another thing I might try is using a robo sander to get closer to the line, then coming back with a template following router bit for the last 1/16" or so. That would work.......robosander is a nice tool. If really wanna play chicken-**** you always can do the final sanding by hand. I did so with my RGT-7 build, just because I was fearful of tear-outs. But there are so many ways to get to same result. Just try some methods and see what works best for you. Just being trigger happy and foolishly routing wood away in deep passes is setting yourself up for trouble. But then again......you only learn from these kinda mistakes. Either way, I'd like to minimize the amount of routing on the outside contours of the guitar. When going for solid color finish, you can be more brave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 (edited) I've grainfilled the guitar over the last couple days. Two coats of clear epoxy on the top on Tuesday, then two coats on the back and sides last night. No pics yet, but the guitar is very pretty. Larry really picked out a great piece of wood for me. Anyway, the epoxy is taking longer to cure than I hoped it would. After 12 hours, it's still soft enough to leave a fingerprint with firm pressure... must be the humidity. Once it's fully cured, I'm going to sand back to level, then evaluate where I'm at. Here is the tentative plan: Wait for the epoxy to cure, then sand it level (by Sunday at the latest, I hope). Drop fill any uneven spots, and sand level. Spray a coat of nitro to seal unfinished wood (except neck pocket) and make sure the epoxy base is good. Test fit (including drilling holes for the hardware that needs to be mounted... pickups, neck, etc...) Disassemble and start spraying nitro If I'm lucky, I'll be up to finishing by next weekend. For those that are curious, most of the tearouts have vanished (sanded out), except the large one on the upper bout. That's visible under the epoxy, but I don't find it objectionable. It looks more like a "spot" in the wood than a mistake. I'll be posting pictures after I get the first coat of nitro on, so you can make your own decision, but if the preview I got from grainfilling is any indication, this thing is going to turn out very nice. Edited November 2, 2006 by fookgub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted November 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 I did the test fit last night, and, to my great relief, everything fits perfectly. The neck pocket is tight, the string alignment is right on, and the pickups are perfectly centered and square to the neck and bridge. The body has a sealer coat of lacquer on it right now. I'll try to post some pictures after work tonight. It's strung up with picture wire to check the string alignment (no sense in wasting a perfectly good set of strings). I'm getting excited... it's really starting to look like a guitar now. It's not shiny yet, but the wood looks great with a bit of lacquer on it. Still to do (getting pretty close here): - finishing - cut a slot in the bridge for the piezo wiring - rout a matching channel in the body Anyway, I have, as usual, run into a couple problems. For one, that epoxy is showing up very dark under the lacquer. This is only evident in the tearouts on the upper bout that were filled with epoxy. I'm not sure why that happened... it's not annoying, but it does make me wonder if I should continue to use epoxy for grainfiller in the future. Also, the neck is sitting pretty high. I may need to deepen the neck pocket by about 1/16", but I'm going to wait until the guitar is ready to assemble before I make a decision on that. Finally, I think I may have sanded the grainfiller too aggressively in a few spots, as the lacquer is sinking into the pores. It doesn't seem to go very deep, though, so I think I'll be able to just build over those spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielM Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 I've never used Epoxy for Grainfilling myself, I tend to use Rustin's Grainfiller, works a treat for me, slap it on let it dry sand back and presto grain is filled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted November 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Here's the pictures. There are a couple small patches where I had to sand out little problems. Just ignore them... the next coat of lacquer will take care of those spots. Whole thing: http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/testfit-overall.jpg Front: http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/testfit-front_close.jpg Side: http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/testfit-side.jpg Tearout: The picture makes it look worse that it really is. Notice how the epoxy is really dark? Dunno what's up with that. http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/testfit-tearout.jpg Neck: It seems to be a bit high. I'm going to wait until final assembly to decide for sure. It'll be pretty easy to lower it about 1/16" whenever I need to http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/testfit-highneck.jpg http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~wrobert/testfit-highneck2.jpg That's all for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vade Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Lovely! I can't believe that there were no initial responses to these test-fit pics back in November. The upper horn tear-out area does, as you say, look a bit manky but not that bad. Good on ya for soldiering on with your original finish choice. I'm not keen on burst finishes myself regardless if they are done for desired look or for covering up less-than-ideal sidegrain or core woods. If, over time, it really gets to you for some reason, you could consider adding a "guitarist's eyes only" inlay in that area that would cover up/remove the old tear-out. A wee bit of flash in an out of the ordinary area... and none would ever be the wiser. Class work so far; eagerly anticipating the full final stringing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted December 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Lovely! I can't believe that there were no initial responses to these test-fit pics back in November. The upper horn tear-out area does, as you say, look a bit manky but not that bad. Good on ya for soldiering on with your original finish choice. I'm not keen on burst finishes myself regardless if they are done for desired look or for covering up less-than-ideal sidegrain or core woods. If, over time, it really gets to you for some reason, you could consider adding a "guitarist's eyes only" inlay in that area that would cover up/remove the old tear-out. A wee bit of flash in an out of the ordinary area... and none would ever be the wiser. Class work so far; eagerly anticipating the full final stringing! Thanks for the comments! I was pretty awestruck when I took those pictures. I hadn't really had the body out in sunlight before, and the figure really looks great. As I said before, the tearout doesn't really bother me. I think attempting to cover it up has a high probability of making it look worse. Anyway, I'll be buffing and assembling during the first week of January (right after I get back from Christmas travelling). If I keep to a decent schedule, I should be playing it by the 5th. I'm getting pretty excited, too. I took my blue guitar (which this guitar is replacing) apart in late August, and the only working electric I've had since then is a beater Yamaha with a bad fretjob and crap electronics. It's going to be really nice have a good guitar around again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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