scottyd Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 HOw is it constructive if you just point out the mistakes in a hee hee look at that type manner? Where is the advice on how to do better? Seems to me we have a few pros around that want to be the only few pros around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 this is not the place for discussions on semantics... in case you are wondering "the binding is wavy,you should work on that" type comments ARE constructive,by definition.. "you suck" is not constructive...or posting laughing smileys over certain aspects of the build quality ,etc.... personally i feel like if most of the critisicms were looked into and followed on the next build,it will make a much better guitar next time...that is why it is constructive...the man(thirstygums) at least seems to have some skill,i just think there is much more learning to be done before taking commisions if you want to be considered as providing a good product. i have said it before and i will keep on saying it...shoddy work hidden behind a "pro" badge is detrimental to all of the fine luthiers who are trying to make a living.consumers are now more gunshy than ever because with the rise of the net comes alot of wannabe pro builders who don't take thje time to learn before selling... it is not "arrogance" to hold "pros" to a higher standard. Where is the advice on how to do better? i told him to use an oversized bearing on humbuckers in the future to shrink the rout size inside his template,and both I and perry gave descriptions on proper neck binding,and perry pointed out the problems shooting the paint and what was probably the cause...how is that not constructive? now let's get back to the build thread,allright?the flaws have been pointed out and hopefully the critiques will be taken to heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levelhead86 Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 (edited) I'm new to writing this forum, and to building, but not to playing; and not to reading stuff on this site. I've learned a lot from watching this forum, both in what to do, and what NOT to do. There's a tone and a way of addressing someone that's constructive, and then there's a tone that's NOTHING but demeening. I'm just starting out building, but I'm sure as hell not going to post anything on here, even if it was four star work; because if I say something wrong I may be flamed to no end, and that's just not helpful to anybody but the 'flamers' ego. In the meantime, Wes is totally right, we really should shift gears back into the build, and focus on a follow-up build; address what went wrong in this one, correcting it next time. Edited January 10, 2007 by levelhead86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterhanson Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 I'm just starting out building, but I'm sure as hell not going to post anything on here, even if it was four star work; because if I say something wrong I may be flamed to no end, and that's just not helpful to anybodythis has already been addressed If this guy was a newb, building his first guitar, then thats one thing. I doubt you'll EVER see this level of critiscm if that was the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 (edited) I'm just starting out building, but I'm sure as hell not going to post anything on here, even if it was four star work; because if I say something wrong I may be flamed to no end, and that's just not helpful to anybody but the 'flamers' ego. I disagree with you. Any newbie on this site will be overloaded with good advice, and tips, when asked for. Newbies, pro's, goodwilling amatures.......that's why we are here, to show our work, and to learn from others.....because we simply love building guitars. Being flamed has not so much to do with type of work you show on the net, but more with the attitude given when people challenge your design, or built choices. Edited January 13, 2007 by Maiden69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 I'm just starting out building, but I'm sure as hell not going to post anything on here, even if it was four star work; because if I say something wrong I may be flamed to no end, and that's just not helpful to anybody but the 'flamers' ego. I disagree with you. Any newbie on this site will be overloaded with good advice, and tips, when asked for. Newbies, pro's, goodwilling amatures.......that's why we are here, to show our work, and to learn from others.....because we simply love building guitars. Being flamed has not so much to do with type of work you show on the net, but more with the attitude given when people challenge your design, or built choices. I agree with this! The only reason he is being critizice so much is because from the begining this was like a pro build to a Band player, not a this is my first guitar I make ever, look around in the forum, as you have said to read a lot, you will see a lot of good advise and the treatment that other people receive... it all depends on the attitude that you take when replying to critiques and the "experience" that you may have... If you go to his my space you will see that he is advertize as a pro builder, and the center piece is a nice fanned fret bass that he build and the 8string here in this thread! After this come up to your own conclusions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THIRSTYGUMS Posted January 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 (edited) It's crazy how harsh people have been on this build. Is there some background reason for it all? Well, the thread is called "8 String Guitar For Connor Brown Of Putrefy". Well I don't know who or what Putrefy is, nor who the hell Connor Brown is. But as it is stated it sounds like a famous band and a famous guitarist. Well if he is, then I would be ashamed to build a guitar with such (non)intentional f*ckups. I would be very critical about every little detail. Like Perry said, calling him a "client" sounds like you think you're a pro building guitars for a living. Conner brown is guitarist and songwriter for The Irish Death/Grind band Putrefy, they are signed to Redrum records and have just released their first studio album. Theyre real good you should check them out if you like-a-tha metal! and no they aint FAMOUS !!?!?!?!What has that got to do with it? would they be more worthwhile human beings if they were in videos hanging out of paris hiltons ass on the internet?! Edited January 10, 2007 by THIRSTYGUMS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THIRSTYGUMS Posted January 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 (edited) So I think the more critique you get, the happier you will be in the end.....cause your next project will be so much better. hey bud, i think my next build will be better thanks to being called a liar, a fraud and a cheat! Like i said my only complaint was with the blatant PERSONAL slandering going on. As to claims of being a pro,(how do we define that? a 40000 square foot workshop? a fleet of polish workers?) they never happened. Just the suggestion that my friend came to me and saw the bass i had built for myself and the various repair/ paint jobs i have done and felt confident to offer me money to build him a guitar. This i am doing and taking the responsibility very seriously- (there will be no buggering off to spain with his cash) i have told him that if he is not happy with any part of the build the choice to pull the plug is his. And yes i would like to get into building at a professional level. This is my second full guitar. I believe that over time i will become of a high enough standard to compete with the best, i believe the quality of my work will stand in each individual case according to the price paid and i believe that rggr, rhoads e.t.c come off looking quite badly by this thread. Everyone i have shown this thread to who have the outsiders point of view (99.99999% of humanity) as opposed to those that seem to live for posting on here, thinks its hilarious. OK rock on Edited January 10, 2007 by THIRSTYGUMS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davee5 Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Not to further beat a dead horse, but as someone who IS building their first guitar and who could readily be considered a n00b, I'd like to say I'm in full favor of unbridled yet constructive critcism. In my own experience I know exactly what you're going to say about my build ahead of time. You knkow who's the most acutely aware of my mistakes? Me. Yet I'm taking the time to do it right, or as right as I can, and while I know precisely where I've botched something, hidden something, etc, I will still continue to post in progress shots for 2.5 reasons. 1: I'm proud of the work I've done so far, even if it's got some rough edges, and I want to share it. Likewise I figure if I can share my first building experience, making notes on its successes and pitfalls in detail, then the next fool who decides to empty their pocketbook in order to shape the wood under some metal strings might be that much wiser when he goes about it. I consider myself yet another set of shuolders to stand upon, like those before me and those present here, even if I add only a few millimeters to the stack. 2: When I do botch a detail, and I don't know where to look for help, someone out here does. When asking humbly and respectfully help on issues with my build I have gotten honest, often thorough, and prompt reponses EVERYTIME. After pushing my dumb, and occasionally clever, ideas/designs/etc for half a year now and lurking these boards for much longer, I have never once seen an honest and heartfelt question go unanswered. I should point out that questions which have been asked 1000 times and responded to 50 separate times within easily searchable threads count as "answered." Laziness is seldom an excuse for ignorance, which I might point out is seldom all that blissful. 2.5: After the criticisms and advice have fallen, I am indeed an attention spam who craves complements and encouragement. When I'm convinced my build looks terrible because there's a slight gap in one of my miters (filled with dust and glue of course) it's been my experience that people here are overwhelmingly positive. I hope and expect that it's my attitude about the build that draws the generous side of people out, but I think the crowd and their love of this hobby/profession/timesuck is what drives their passion for the builders and the built and building. A final note: My own experience of any creative process, and guitar-building is most certianly a process of creation, is that both people and products are best served by a sense of reverence for the creative. If you respect the tradition of fine woodworking, luthiery, and the time it takes to be a craftsman, instead of a hack with a router, I believe your work and the respect you slowly earn will reflect it. The world and its myriad contents deserve careful consideration. Every board, figured and quartersawn or bland and riftsawn, is a reflection of the intricacy and mystery of the universe and should inspire us with utter awe. If you consider that quilt top as the masterpiece of creation and evolution that it is, or even just as a truly unique and beautiful object, you will know exactly how to shape and handle it. Disrespect it, take away the awe you should hold it in, and I assure you that there shall be no awe left at all in your finished work. -Dave "Not-Nearly-As-Hippy-As-He-Sounds" E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 So I think the more critique you get, the happier you will be in the end.....cause your next project will be so much better. hey bud, i think my next build will be better thanks to being called a liar, a fraud and a cheat! Like i said my only complaint was with the blatant PERSONAL slandering going on. As to claims of being a pro,(how do we define that? a 40000 square foot workshop? a fleet of polish workers?) they never happened. Just the suggestion that my friend came to me and saw the bass i had built for myself and the various repair/ paint jobs i have done and felt confident to offer me money to build him a guitar. This i am doing and taking the responsibility very seriously- (there will be no buggering off to spain with his cash) i have told him that if he is not happy with any part of the build the choice to pull the plug is his. And yes i would like to get into building at a professional level. This is my second full guitar. I believe that over time i will become of a high enough standard to compete with the best, i believe the quality of my work will stand in each individual case according to the price paid and i believe that rggr, rhoads e.t.c come off looking quite badly by this thread. Everyone i have shown this thread to who have the outsiders point of view (99.99999% of humanity) as opposed to those that seem to live for posting on here, thinks its hilarious. OK rock on I have been watching, reading, looking over the work in the pics. I see the same issues that others have pointed out and suggestions have been offered on methods(pretty much covered). You ask how we define a "pro". Work space, tools, employees, client list(NO). A high level of competance, knowledge, reliability, skill and ability(YES). How can you evaluate these things from a build thread? Most you can't, but you can scratch the surface by looking at the work in pictures(which by no means present a complete picture of a guitar, far less than one would see if they had a guitar in their hands). A good start to a professional looking guitar is one that should show no hint of flaw to the user. No work is flawless, but some of the best is extreamly close. Fit and finish on even a $300 factory guitar shows no hint of flaw to a user unless it is a "Blem". I believe a "Pro" Luthier should be able to do better than most $300 factory guitars(and I don't believe that is an unreasonable standard, at least from a fit and finish point of view). As for an experienced amature builder that is doing a pretty darn good job, and is learning how to really refine his work. Some errors occur(slip ups, slight flaws may be visable, but slight and pretty hard to spot). This is a person that is trying to get the tools and techniques down well enough to not have these flaws. Before you can refine technique you have to really have your planning and understanding down pat. This is a very repetative time for a builder. As for a begginer that is making great progress. A begginer plans as best they can if they are doing their homework. They are getting a solid grasp what order to do things in, and what methods work best for them. They are gaining a lot of knowledge on parts and materials, and are starting to see first hand what they sound like or how well they work. If they take great pride in their work they will continue to improve as they get used to how things work. A begginer will be faced with many supprises or things they did not think of(it is only natural, but the best will take it all in and add it to their knowledge and become stronger builders). This is a time of great leaps and bounds as well as great frustrations. At all levels people deserve to be proud of their accomplishments and hard work. I believe people who are working tward a "pro" level should keep their work "close"(friends, family) so that when major flaws or failures occur due to lack of knowledge, skill, ability etc... show up. You can repair, replace or whatever is needed. If you strive to every build a reputation and build for a living. Be extreamly cautious of what you let out into the general public. I am going to just say 2nd full guitar= begginer doing good(that is an honest compliment ). I am sure you have learned plenty from this build. Peace,Rich P.S. If you go to his my space you will see that he is advertize as a pro builder, and the center piece is a nice fanned fret bass that he build and the 8string here in this thread! You don't really advertise as a Professional builder do you??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Everyone i have shown this thread to who have the outsiders point of view (99.99999% of humanity) as opposed to those that seem to live for posting on here, thinks its hilarious. Outsiders?? Or mates?? No mate is going to tell you that you've stuffed up and your work in subpar. Thats why they are useless for giving advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 (edited) FWIW... http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...va=professional If you're building the instrument with the intention of exchanging it for money, then in my book you've given up your amateur status and turned pro. Not if you're trading it for an amp or Super Bowl tickets or what have you...only if coin is involved. That's the litmus test. Here is the essence of the issue as I see it, and perhaps a reason why (some) declared professional luthiers are quick to criticize. This was lifted from another forum: Why am I telling you this? Because EVERYTHING looks good on the net. Anyone with the barest of skills can buy a cheap digital camera, take pictures, download web-site construction software or get it off a magazine cover CD, throw up a commercial website, and offer stuff for sale, without anyone ever knowing that the "business" is really a 22 year-old guy who has 3 years experience with a hobby during their spare time, and operated as a one-person "business" out of their parents' basement, with 4 younger siblings and a pesky cat getting in the way all the time. That person is not trying to lie to you, but with only superficial electronic information available, and being at the mercy of all the slick language and graphics they can muster, you have absolutely no way of telling the difference between a product source you can depend on, and one you should be skeptical of for the time being. I'm not casting aspertions on anyone at all. What I'm trying to say is that the web, and web-based sales of products via images and soundclips, places everyone in the same position as my students looking for articles. If you have no contextual information, or background knowledge, how on earth do you judge, and how does the vendor (who we will presume is enthusiastic and sincere) convey - without harming their sales - that they are just some small-time outfit taking a stab at making a bit of money from something they do? If you make a couple of pedals or pickups for some friends, and sell by word of mouth, they understand what they are buying and who is selling it. If you have a website or e-bay ad, instantly you get put on the same pedestal as the most trusted names in the business, without necessarily trying to. For my money, the guy quoted above is stuck clinging to an old-school business model and needs to come to grips with the brave new (quite a bit smaller) world of marketing that exists care of the internet (that's capitalism baby!). All the same, you see the guy's point.... Edited January 11, 2007 by erikbojerik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AlexVDL Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Ok, for the newbs... http://litchfieldguitars.tripod.com/home/index.html ^^^ here is a guy who was a member here. His work was TERRIBLE. Do a search. Everyone sat back and let it go, until he started talking about clients, money, being a pro. Wait a sec.... thats when i, and a bunch of others, stood up and said STOP. DESPITE his amazingly bad work, and clearly unplayable guitars, he was signing up clients for work... off this very site. The newbs who havent built a guitar, or worked with wood, thought he was great (well, some of them). The guys who had built a few guitars, knew he was just full of it. Now, consider that Jamie here is BOAT LOAD better at building guitars (that is clear), but he is still making silly mistakes that are only rectified with experience, or a damn well thought out plan/design. Im not saying Jamie is as bad as Jeff was (thats impossible!), what i AM trying to point out though, is that people on here will possibly contact Jamie, in regards to having work done. There is nothing wrong with that if his workmanship is pro level, but it isnt. No yet. Promising, but he still has a long journey to go. If they will contact Jeff, then they will damn well contact Jamie. He's new, he's interesting, he's got that 'i know what im doing' type attitude, and i bet he is a damn site cheaper than the pro down the road with an established business. If someone is genuinely a professional, with a registered business, backlog of work, galleries of work, and client testimonials, then by all means take on work. But do NOT use this forum to get your new guitar making business off the ground, as we will pick at your work to show off how inexperienced you are... purely to save going through all the pain of sorting out yet ANOTHER failed business deal made with a member of this forum. And in regards to the "closed shop for pro's around here" comment, a prime example of a pro that has come in here and proven himself INSTANTLY is doug at Soulmate. No one questions his work, because there is NOTHING to question. He has done the required hard yards, and shown he can built neatly, has a registered business, and something a little more than a "slap up a myspace page" vibe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottyd Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 http://litchfieldguitars.tripod.com/home/index.html p.s. Whatever happened to KrazyDerek Maybe he got a real life and stopped hanging around here..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottyd Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 +1 Very good wording, this site has gotten to be almost (almost!) not even worth checking out on account of these peoples attitudes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digideus Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Thirsty, Nice guitar. As long as Connor likes it and will play it, I think the minor niggles like epoxy filling around the inlays are a minor thing. Take the valid criticsums on board but dont be detracted from carrying on and DO keep making guitars and posting them here. Rhodes56, Wes, Prostheta and the rest of the old guard (hehe) are right in what they say because they are interested in making you a better builder by pointing out these things. A lot of the comments by others are pointless, however this place is just like the real world and ou should never forget that opinions are like backsides... everyone has one, they all stink and you can tolerate the smell of your own! When you finishing the guitar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AlexVDL Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THIRSTYGUMS Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Be a man and admit your mistakes... he he he Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
putrefyconnor Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 hello my name is connor, and this is my first and probably my last posting here. I am the Friend of thirsty gums/client/customer/whatever you wanna call me. Having read through all this here, i have to admit constructive criticism is always a good thing, however there is not one bit of it here. rhoads 56, you are a pro guitar builder. surely calling people liars etc etc isnt the way to go about it? you said mr gums professes to deem himself as a professional, please point this out? as i cannot see the place where he has once stated this. from what i can see you seemed to have picked this up from the statement " 8 string guitar for connor brown from putrefy" well thats excactly what it is, whats he supposed to do, write it in hieroglyphics? i will reiterate that this guitar was built under my supervison and nothing was done by mr gums unless i said so. there were occassions where things had to be done over and over again until i was happy with it. all that is on this guitar i asked for. now let me give you abit about the background and inception of this guitar. mr gums built a bass, for fun(which is what its primarily all about) which to me looked ****** awesome to say the least. i asked how he learnt how to do this, he said he read a book. read a book?!??! you dont just read a book to do this?!?! this is a ****** talent. now please bare in mind mr gums is a father and studying in his final year of a 3d design degree. to him its all about music and fun. the way it should be. i saw this as a talent possessed by few in my own locality so i was more than happy to give mr gums my money to build me an 8 string, something i never thought id own but here it is. so for me a guitar playing dream come true. so im happy. i see people mentioning that they are only trying to advise in order to make a better builder, and to get him to admit mistakes? why? who the **** are you that he has to admit to you? does he have to bow down to you? i thought this was project guitar, a place where people share their love for guitar building. to me it looks like a ****in "my **** bigger than yours competition" utter b******. and rhoads just for the record, nice guitars, they look like ripped off E.S.P. designs but nice none the less but also nobody likes an ******* either. and people this guy is not your guitar building god? so stop kissin his ass hes not the be all and end all of guitar building, quite run of the mill actually. scared to be different? **** knows, who cares. not me thats for sure. i would also like to point out this guitar was built by HIMSELF, im sure alot of you have done this too and i think thats class, but rhoads my friend you look like youve got a small company, hence STAFF/MANPOWER. mr gums doesnt have these facilties at all. anyways thats enuff from me. to all who dug the guitar and were constructive nice one guys and your points and comments were duly noted, and to all whose egos are running wild: **** off and remember nobody likes an *******. *a note to the moderator* do your job mate and stop this sorta nonsense happening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FA2A Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 there you have it, the customer himself is happy, so shut up and let this guy finish the build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 there you have it, the customer himself is happy, so shut up and let this guy finish the build. yup, and in this case, thats ALL that matters. If the client is happy with it, than everything is cool. Hopefully the issues raised are rectified with later builds, and mr gums can blow us all away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Not Rex Brown Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 looks nice but i wonder what's tunning and how the hell you could reach upper strings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Its very nice that you like your guitar, but you are way out of line with the post and even more with your language. i have to admit constructive criticism is always a good thing, however there is not one bit of it hereMan, there are a lot of constructive criticism in this thread, but Mr Gums are not able to handle it. Erik pointed out that the access hole for the truss rod might be too small. Perry started out with a polite question about the size of the inlay rout, Chris delivered a very adequate question about WHY in heavens name he would cut through the bindings, Godin SD points out that the tuning will be a problem whit the angle the strings leave the nut, and so on. That is my definition of constructive criticism. As soon as someone stated something else than “oh this is an amazing guitar” Mr Gums starts to behave like a little child!!!! See: thats not criticism, thats insult, That is from someone that can’t take criticism. I agree that some people have come on to hard, but it has been explained earlier in this thread: We expect higher standards from someone that are building for a customer then from someone that is enjoying a nice build for himself. If the moderators had done their job your post would have been deleted and you would have been banned from the forum for using that language. Over here **** still means **** and isn’t allowed. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THIRSTYGUMS Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 (edited) As soon as someone stated something else than “oh this is an amazing guitar” Mr Gums starts to behave like a little child!!!! See: thats not criticism, thats insult, That is from someone that can’t take criticism. Again, rubbish. I was accused of being a liar and a fraud. I am neither and i make a habit of standing up for my pride. Childish? Im going to keep on standing up for myself, and im going to keep posting the progress of this guitar, get used to it. Im not going anywhere swedish luthier. so bored of this now Edited January 11, 2007 by THIRSTYGUMS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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