A Simple Case Of Schaller Floyd-rose Radii And Fingerboards

[Prostheta]

Considering a floating trem build (later next year, too much work right now) and something got me thinking. The Schaller Floyds have a nut radius of 14" which is a pain as the pre-radiused boards Stewmac sell (for convenience, don't get me started!) are 12" for 25-3/4" and 10" through 16" for the compound radius 25-1/2" boards.

How far off perfect would an incorrect radius on a locking nut to the fingerboard be?

Alternatives I've considered are:

- modifying the radius of the 14" nut by deepening the existing slots (PITA)

- altering the radius over the frets when levelling, closer to 14" (would require very high fretwire?)

- ordering an alternative radius nut (cost)

- dealing with the fact the setup won't be perfect

Additionally, what radius nut would you use for a 10" through 16" compound radius? 10" at a guess.

Until my current projects are complete, this is purely academic although worthwhile knowledge to plan around of course :-D

TIA,

- Carl

[westhemann]

Additionally, what radius nut would you use for a 10" through 16" compound radius? 10" at a guess.

correct

How far off perfect would an incorrect radius on a locking nut to the fingerboard be?

too far at the nut..i would highly recomend getting your board from lmii or reradiusing the stewmac board to 14"

by the way...reradiusing a 12" board to 14" is next to no work at all with a radius block.

you really should have a compound radius board for trem use to reduce fret out in a pullback.

10" floyd nut...16" floyd bridge...10" to 16" radius board.

that is what works best for major trem use.

or you can get a kahler...theey have individual saddle height adjustment for whatever radius you want...then you just buy the floyd nut you want

[Prostheta]

Thanks Wes - much appreciated. I think I'd rather cater for crazy amounts of pull-ups so perhaps using the Stewmac compound board and a 10" nut would be a good idea. I'll have a look around LMII in a bit and figure out how it works with the rough I idea I have in my head.

We're talking some kind of Dime star, BTW :-D

Incidentally, we covered Domination at the gig last night and destroyed the place! Oh yeah!

</duff man>

[radrobgray]

or you could use a ORF which has a 10" radius nut and bridge and then shim your bridge saddles to a different radii, so you could use the stew mac board.

[soapbarstrat]

If you have a board thats 10" at the nut, and 16" at the 21st/22nd fret area, you'd want a bridge radius that's at least an 18" radius, although 20" radius is probably more like it (I don't feel like looking over the formula and doing the math).

Also, many, including myself, feel that the 10" to 16" is a little over-kill.

It seems that 10" to 14" makes more sense (Bottom line is to have the fret-board and frets level *in the path of the strings*).

And I'm assuming here, we're talking about a 6 string neck with average widths at the nut and body joint areas of the neck.

As you know, the bridge radius can be tweaked .Never saw one from the factory that had a perfect radius on it anyway.

Also, never came across a locking nut with a perfect radius, and that's a problem for someone who's as fussy as me about every single string being set-up as well as possible. I don't like setting a couple strings a little higher at the nut, because if I don't, another string or two will be too low (again, from the radius not being a perfect radius).

There's no doubt a double locking whammy will rule much of how the guitar can be made/set-up. So yeah, you are right to figure out everything about the whammy specs before doing anything else.

Scrap the idea of milling slots deeper on the locking nut.

Having a 14" radius at the nut can be done to most fret-boards, but if you go 'compound" on the radius, you are going to have a pretty darn flat board up at the body (but many acoustic guitars have an 20" radius, so it wouldn't be *that* extreme)

[spazzyone]

Soapbar is totaly correct on the bridge radius

i shim all my compounds to a 20" radius at the bridge and i do this buy cutting

the appropriate size feeler gauges as shims (always a perfect fit)

[rhoads56]

I have seen the pre-cut nut shims for floyd style nuts, but has anyone seen pre-cut saddle shims?? Im sick of cutting them myself.

EDIT, found them already... thanks..

[Prostheta]

Considering heavy trem usage is near enough an integral part of the design spec, I see how compound would work....on the topic of radius progression through the string length, I presume that the radius would reduce itself through from the nut (10") to 24th (16") so if the taper is linear, I'd expect 12th fret to be a 14.5" radius, and the bridge to be something like a 19" radius. If so, bang on the mark there Spazzy (have a banana sticker!).

I've still to decide whether to go neck through or set (academic) but knowing the technical bounds is the first 90% of the work I reckon. I've never done a floating trem instrument before, but same as everything - can't approach it half-cocked!

On perhaps a different note - what is the practical differences between Gotoh, Schaller, Lo-Pro, "real" Floyd-Rose, etc. trems? Obviously material quality (Schaller?) and simple things such as how the arm mounts in the bridge go a long way. I can't fault my Ibanez RG1640FM's unit for that one. Pop in and pop out with no screwing around :-D

[westhemann]

the edge trem in that rg you have is comsidered perfectly designed as a knife edge trem can be...and there is a guy on the board who supplies ibanez trems.i have bought a guitar from him before and he is very trustworthy...he even routed it to accept a fernandes sustainer system and did a very nice,damage free job of it.

i brelieve it is an sl3?that i bought?jackson soloist anyway.

www.vwallguitars.com

he carries all of the ibanez trems.email him for info

[Prostheta]

It's a very stable system for sure. Shame it's in gold and not in black though :-D Sounds like we have a contender! How do Ibanez trems compare to Schallers, etc?

Sorry, I meant S1640FM. Guitarlexia.

This is my baby 1

This is my baby 2

This is my baby 3

This is my baby 4

Edited December 10, 2006 by Prostheta

[soapbarstrat]

I thought until now that Perry was a real man, and didn't use those girly shims.

I grind the bottoms of the saddles instead :

http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/...061584286rNbYfm

But then again, these saddles were floyd copies and a hell of a lot softer metal than the real deal, so I was even able to grind the bottoms, using a nice big file laying on the bench.

But I might become a real man someday, if perhaps I tweak my old Kramer Sustainer with the OFR, and use a diamond abrasive block to grind the saddles.

[Prostheta]

Argh! vwallguitars.com has been eaten by the dreaded domain searchsite monsters!!

[westhemann]

oh...that is an original edge i believe...very nice...i have one in my jap sabre as well.as good or better than schaller...but vwall carries the new ones which are even better than that one

email v wall at vwall1@yahoo.com

tell him you are a project guitar member and ask him what you want to know.try to be succinct

[Prostheta]

I'll leave it till when I'm ready to purchase in that case. I presume the routing is pretty much same as what I have in the S1640FM, so I can measure and template in CAD from there?

As an aside, what is better from the version I have to the one you're referring to?

[westhemann]

the newest edge trem is the best of them imo..i think it is called the edge III

no..the routs are not all the same

[spazzyone]

Wes.....no the E3 sucks the arm is junk

the bridge is awsome minus this one flaw

it just slips in and there is some kinda plastic in the bridge (not on the arm)

and a set screw on the bottom back of the unit (not the one for arm height)

to set the swing tension. and it wears out quick and the arm gets a lot of wobble in it

the hole where my bar goes in is now kinda oblong shaped

but the rest of the trem is great. the smoothest fine tuners ive ever felt

[westhemann]

i like the original edge pretty well.but everyone i talk to insists the edge 3 is better.i am notsure if you can order the original edge or not

edit:i reread another thread and i see that godblesstexas prefers the original edge pro over the others as well as you...maybe i have been listening to salesmen a little too much.

i do like my edge pro..it is very smooth and i have never had to use my extra bar bushing that came with the guitar so many years ago.

i build all of my guitars with the original floyd though.it works well and i think it looks pretty slick

[Prostheta]

Given that I already have an edge in the S1640FM that I'm more than happy with, I think I'll stick with that if I can get ahold of one. Plus I already have a perfect example of it set up, and the routing required :-D

Have you any more leads on places to acquire an Edge Pro Wes? I think that I have plenty of time to spend finding one so I might as well get on the case if they're harder to come by now.

[westhemann]

vwall is your best bet...very few places sell ibanez parts

although you could just go with the original floyd...they work flawlessly as well,you just have to run a bit of teflon tape around the threads at the bar to hold it as loose or tight as you want it.

i really like the bar fdesign of the original edge though.i think that is the only thing that makes it nicer than the original floyd

[axemannate]

edge=lo pro egde=edge pro<egdge II/III. Stay away from edge III. either the lo pro, origional edge, or edge pro are the ways to go, and personally i would go with an origional edge, but its really prefrence since all three bridges are great.

[westhemann]

you have your sign backwards...< means less than..> means greater than

for what it's worth...i have the edge pro II and it hasn't let me down yet...the knife edges are still sharp after 2 years...but that doesn't mean it's just as good..just that i have had good luck with mine

[Prostheta]

The VWall site seems to be down, and the domain pointing at some generic search page crap. I presume he's still trading?

[westhemann]

yes...i talked to vwall just the other day about a zr trem...just email him and wait for him to get back with you.his shop is somwhere around houston...

[Nekul]

Just a thought, has anyone actually done the maths to work out the difference in the height of the saddles between the OFR and the 16"? I mean, are the shims the exact right heigth or do you have to stack several to get them exactly right? It would be nice to be able to shim (or grind acurately) without the fit-test-shim-fit-test-shim process.

If someone has done the maths can you tell us please

[soapbarstrat]

I'm trying to imagine how one would "do the math" on checking a radius of an object. LOL ! (not being mean, I'm glad there's something to chuckle about here)

The best way I know, is to string the sucker up, use an "under the strings" radius gauge under the strings (duh !) . See how well the strings fit the gauge you're trying to replicate, and go from there with shimming or grinding.