First Commissioned Build

[Christopher]

A good friend of mine wants me to build him a talman. The worlds craziest talman to be exact. I want to know if his brain child will be functional.

Talman body shape, w/Melody maker style headstock

Neck through (birds eye maple w/ korina wings)

25 in scale

string through

rolling bridge and nut

P90-Lipstick-P90 pup configuration (all direct mounted)

0 radius maple fretboard

JUMBO frets

Non adjustable truss rod with 2 carbon supports

1 7/8 in at the nut 2 in at the bridge

I know it's possible but I'd like more opinions about how it's not very praticle... what could I reccomend to him?

[yahilltrade]

the melody maker head stock sounds wack.

[verhoevenc]

why would he want a perfectly flat fretboard?! And no matter what he wants I'd always consider a non-adjustable neck a bad idea. The reason people do it is to get rid of the channel and metal in the neck... but if you're putting in carbon rods, the point of not having a truss is thus once again voided. ALSO, he knows this is going to cost him ALOT more than a talman off eBay would yes? I got mine in nice condition for $200, and it wasn't the cheap end ones either!

Chris

[thegarehanman]

The way you tell him it's not practical is by quoting him $5k for it. He'll get the message real quick. Works for me every time. Then he'll go get one off ebay, sand the fretboard flat and refret it, I guess. Are you cool with building someone else's brain child?...I can't get used to it.

peace,

russ

[fryovanni]

A good friend of mine wants me to build him a talman. The worlds craziest talman to be exact. I want to know if his brain child will be functional.

Talman body shape, w/Melody maker style headstock

Neck through (birds eye maple w/ korina wings)

25 in scale

string through

rolling bridge and nut

P90-Lipstick-P90 pup configuration (all direct mounted)

0 radius maple fretboard

JUMBO frets

Non adjustable truss rod with 2 carbon supports

1 7/8 in at the nut 2 in at the bridge

I know it's possible but I'd like more opinions about how it's not very praticle... what could I reccomend to him?

Ok, You might catch a little flack about calling this a commissioned build. It is just for a friend and as long as your friend understands your experience I believe this is fine(but I would not call it a commission-Just call it a build for a friend, there is a big difference in the professional/client relationship).

That said. Nothing wrong with most of what you have listed(design is you and your buds call). However a non-adjustable trem and carbon rods??? Why would you possibly do that? If you want to build a rigid neck, be prepaired to be spot on or expect absolute failure. Also you have no ability to add relief if prefered(this all has to be finalised during building*** and in my opinion is a HUGE design flaw). I have a non-adjustable Modulus neck on a bass of mine. It works, but it is a bass(it would be crap on a guitar). Also carbon supports?? Is the non-adjustable truss a steel bar? One way or the other, I would strongly recommend a two way adjustable truss rod(I use LMI or Allied style). A couple carbon rods in conjunction with that truss would be a nice combo.

Peace,Rich

[biliousfrog]

How much influence did you have with those specs? If "none" then how much experience with building guitars does your friend have?...because if he doesn't know how to build it himself then I'd guess that he doesn't know why certain guitars are built the way they are.

Talman body shape, w/Melody maker style headstock....ugly but personal preference

Neck through (birds eye maple w/ korina wings)

25 in scale

string through......ok

rolling bridge and nut.........seems pointless if there's no trem

P90-Lipstick-P90 pup configuration (all direct mounted)

0 radius maple fretboard......has he ever played a non radiused board?

JUMBO frets

Non adjustable truss rod with 2 carbon supports......seems pointless, why not non-adjustable volume & tone controls & non adjustable action too?

1 7/8 in at the nut 2 in at the bridge.....ok as long as the bridge is actually 2", could be tricky otherwise

most of the specs are just personal preference but the non-adjustable neck sounds pointless. Why would you want to spend time & effort making a neck that might not be stiff enough, be too stiff or just plain not work?...& why would anyone specifically ask for a non-adjustable neck?...he doesn't need to adjust it...just tell him to leave it alone.

[Christopher]

A good friend of mine wants me to build him a talman. The worlds craziest talman to be exact. I want to know if his brain child will be functional.

Talman body shape, w/Melody maker style headstock

Neck through (birds eye maple w/ korina wings)

25 in scale

string through

rolling bridge and nut

P90-Lipstick-P90 pup configuration (all direct mounted)

0 radius maple fretboard

JUMBO frets

Non adjustable truss rod with 2 carbon supports

1 7/8 in at the nut 2 in at the bridge

I know it's possible but I'd like more opinions about how it's not very praticle... what could I reccomend to him?

Ok, You might catch a little flack about calling this a commissioned build. It is just for a friend and as long as your friend understands your experience I believe this is fine(but I would not call it a commission-Just call it a build for a friend, there is a big difference in the professional/client relationship).

That said. Nothing wrong with most of what you have listed(design is you and your buds call). However a non-adjustable trem and carbon rods??? Why would you possibly do that? If you want to build a rigid neck, be prepaired to be spot on or expect absolute failure. Also you have no ability to add relief if prefered(this all has to be finalised during building*** and in my opinion is a HUGE design flaw). I have a non-adjustable Modulus neck on a bass of mine. It works, but it is a bass(it would be crap on a guitar). Also carbon supports?? Is the non-adjustable truss a steel bar? One way or the other, I would strongly recommend a two way adjustable truss rod(I use LMI or Allied style). A couple carbon rods in conjunction with that truss would be a nice combo.

Peace,Rich

I guess I shouldn't have said friend. He is more of an aquatince than a friend, and as soon as he found out that I build guitars he sent me the list that I posted. I am going to e-mail him back with my personal suggestions (and yours) because I personally don't know where to start on improvements.

How much influence did you have with those specs? If "none" then how much experience with building guitars does your friend have?...because if he doesn't know how to build it himself then I'd guess that he doesn't know why certain guitars are built the way they are.

Talman body shape, w/Melody maker style headstock....ugly but personal preference

Neck through (birds eye maple w/ korina wings)

25 in scale

string through......ok

rolling bridge and nut.........seems pointless if there's no trem

P90-Lipstick-P90 pup configuration (all direct mounted)

0 radius maple fretboard......has he ever played a non radiused board?

JUMBO frets

Non adjustable truss rod with 2 carbon supports......seems pointless, why not non-adjustable volume & tone controls & non adjustable action too?

1 7/8 in at the nut 2 in at the bridge.....ok as long as the bridge is actually 2", could be tricky otherwise

most of the specs are just personal preference but the non-adjustable neck sounds pointless. Why would you want to spend time & effort making a neck that might not be stiff enough, be too stiff or just plain not work?...& why would anyone specifically ask for a non-adjustable neck?...he doesn't need to adjust it...just tell him to leave it alone.

I guess the reason he want's the neck like that is for the stiffness of graphite but the beauty of wood. I think he's a little nuts personally.

I'm also trying to get him to change the headstock to a talman style head stock or if that fails maybe somewhere inbetween a jazz master and a strat...

He refused to buy a Talman because he "only plays neck-through" once again, he's kind of nuts...

It's going to take some work with the rolling nut and bridge because he thinks it will stay in tune better when he bends notes, but I've gotta try.

Last but not least I'm going to try and talk him into a the very least a 11 in radius fret board...

The last thing I want to do is have the first guitar I make profit on be a piece of junk...

why would he want a perfectly flat fretboard?! And no matter what he wants I'd always consider a non-adjustable neck a bad idea. The reason people do it is to get rid of the channel and metal in the neck... but if you're putting in carbon rods, the point of not having a truss is thus once again voided. ALSO, he knows this is going to cost him ALOT more than a talman off eBay would yes? I got mine in nice condition for $200, and it wasn't the cheap end ones either!

Chris

Then again his will be exactly how he wants it (unless I can help it). Worth the price...

Oddly enough the materials for this build are only going to cost me about $380. I'm thinking of charging $950? Too low? Too high?

[Supernova9]

How many guitars have you built? Show us some of your previous work.

Are you working on this full-time or do you have another job?

I don't mean to be too negative, but if you don't know where to start on improvements to that spec (i.e. adjustable truss rod, no need for roller nut and bridge if no trem, bridge string spacing is incredibly narrow, and nut is rather wide), then you shouldn't be taking the build on, let alone charging for it. It's different if it's a friend, but not if it's just an acquaintance as you say.

[thegarehanman]

I would avoid this customer like the plague. It seems that he may only think he knows what he wants and that these specs are derived from pure speculation and conjecture. The last thing you want is to have the guitar finished and for him to hate it on account of it not being what he expected it to be, regardless of workmanship. Sure, you can play the "this is what you asked for card," but you'll still have to deal with an angry customer. Conversely, if you give the guy suggestions and those don't yield a guitar that he likes, he can lay the blame for that squarely on your shoulders. This all kind of puts you between a rock and a hard place. I don't mean to be a killjoy in any way; I just want you to look at this from every angle. I'm in no way the most experienced builder around. I've done only one commission to date. That's mostly because I just don't get satisfaction out of building someone else's baby, not for a lack of opportunities to take on builds. Fortunately for me, the customer is still completely happy with his purchase. Well, that's enough rambling. I think this lack of sleep from exam week is getting to me.

peace,

russ

[Mickguard]

He refused to buy a Talman because he "only plays neck-through" once again, he's kind of nuts...

There's your answer. Avoid this guy, tell him to go build his own guitar. Seriously, if he's that rigid, then you'll have to make an absolutely flawless guitar...and he'll still find fault with it.

Besides, $950 just isn't enough. Add at least another grand for the time commitment. Minimum.

I'm with the garenhanman, scare 'em away with a big price quote.

[thegarehanman]

I still say "scare him away," as idch, erm...mickguard put it, but were you to build it, I'd have to disagree with jacking up the price. I look at 2x cost as pretty reasonable if you can build a mechanically sound, aesthetically acceptable guitar, under the condition that the customer knows you're not a pro. Sure, it's a sucky profit margin. It's mostly just enough to cover your @$$ if you mess up something and need to reorder a body blank or what have you, but do you really think it's fair to be charging pro rates when you can't guarantee pro results, every single time without fail(not to mention offer a "warranty" like a pro would)?

peace,

russ

Edited December 12, 2006 by thegarehanman

[westhemann]

here is a novel idea...you NEVER take a comission for a build until you know exactly what you are doing.i absolutely hate the fact that there are so many guys willing to build for money when they can't provide a product worth the money.

let's look at this for a minute...$950...what will that buy you in the guitar market...

an ltd kh 602 costs exactly $950 right now...that is a premium built korean version of the esp kh2...original floyd,dual emg 81s,maple neck thru with alder wings...and SUPPOSEDLY good quality control.

can you provide an equivelent product?would you know enough to know whether or not it IS equivelent?

look...every since the absolute MINUTE i started building guitars i had every douche in the world asking me to make them one....even when they had seen nothing i had done,and even though i had no clue what i was doing.to this day i have built nothing for anyone other than myself...

just because you CAN get someone to pay money for you to muck around does not mean you should...it's about a little thing called integrity that i really think the world is lacking in right now.

scare him away with a price quote?foolish...just say NOOOO until you develop enough skill to be able to build a kick ass guitar without having to come here and ask other teenagers what their opinion is...

you don't see myka doing that,do you?

if you charge money for work you do...that makes you a proffesional...is your work professional or is there goingto be an unhappy guy somewhere who takes your guitar to a luthier for repair after he gets in and has the luthier or even just a repairman tell him the guitar is trash?

jusgtgt a reality check.only you can know if you have the ability to do this...but my guess from this topic is that you don't.

[Doeringer]

I don't disagree with the rolling nut too much if he is a big bender.

But I would agree with most everything being said, especially the stay away part. Once you have built about 20 guitars, then you can START to think profit. I would say $950 is way to cheap for the time involved.

Stay on PG, learn and grow, if after you have built several and still want to make a go at it. Then start making plans, just don't expect to make money with it... you may be able to eek out an existance...

[Setch]

I don't disagree with the rolling nut too much if he is a big bender.

Oh, the joy of the language barrier

[westhemann]

hehe...yeah i actually like the rolling nuts as well...it does stay in tune better because the string does not catch in a slot.i use graphite nuts mostly these days though on everything with a fixed bridge...they work very well and are a bit classier looking.

rolling nuts are a bit too 80s even for me.

on a" not too distant from the topic" note...i often have thought that if i DID sell guitars...that i would build them beforehand and then put them on a website for sale with all the specs clearl listed...that way i know if it is good enough to sell

[fryovanni]

I guess I shouldn't have said friend. He is more of an aquatince than a friend, and as soon as he found out that I build guitars he sent me the list that I posted. I am going to e-mail him back with my personal suggestions (and yours) because I personally don't know where to start on improvements.

Please take this as constructive. Do not take on a commission at this point. I say this because of your question and the fact this would be your very first(all leading me to suspect your heading for a bad train reck). As I mentioned if it was a close freind or relative it would be a bit different. Even asking how much your finished guitar would be worth tells me you are not in a good position to do this. To be realistic most people first 3 or 4 guitars are not worth the cost of materials that went into them(market value). After you can at least get a fit and finish that equals a cheap knock off(which is pretty good) then it is probably worth the cost of materials(hoping and praying you have built up a skills and knowledge so that it will not fall apart in 3 years). If you are going to sell a guitar before that point. It is an "project guitar as-is" kinda sale.

This is not a rant. I do not mean to sound superior(I am not, I am not ready to take a commision myself). I am not trying to hurt feelings, or put down your skills. I just really would hate to have this hurt you and or your customer, and in the process give every last one of us that have invested many years(and dollars) learning to build solid functional instruments a black eye.

Peace,Rich

[kingfisher]

This is what I would do.

Tell him you will make the guitar, but you will not put in any "features" ((flat board, no rod etc) that you do not agree with.

Secondly you will not be held to a delivery date.

Thirdly, he is under no obligation to buy the guitar when finished.

That way you will have the satisfaction of making a nice guitar, and you won't be stuck with an oddball when he changes his mind. (which he will if you make it to his spec)

[Drak]

This is an easy one.

If you have to ask these questions here, you're nowhere near ready to accept a dime for your work yet.

Now, I don't know if you maybe rambled on about how cool your guitars are, so maybe you might have to eat some humble pie if you led him to believe that you can do more than you actually can. I know that there are ALWAYS 2 sides to every story.

If you overtalked yourself in a friendly environment, having a few beers or something, then this may be your own cross to bear, and you may have to eat a little crow and suck your ego in a little, just depends on how you presented your build ability to him, did you BS him/lead him on about what you really can do?

If you did, learn the lesson and don't talk bad on your bad self until you're bad enough to back the talk up with some action.

Then again, maybe he's just pushing your buttons, maybe he already knows you can't build a guitar like that and he's taking you for a ride to see how far you'll string yourself up your own tree?

[Mattia]

I don't disagree with the rolling nut too much if he is a big bender.

Oh, the joy of the language barrier

I know...I'm trying to say something constructive, but I just keep on giggling at this.

constructive: what rich and setch and them other wise dudes said.

[Mickguard]

Then again, maybe he's just pushing your buttons, maybe he already knows you can't build a guitar like that and he's taking you for a ride to see how far you'll string yourself up your own tree?

Doesn't that kind of thing only happen in Fox sit-coms?

It's funny though...ever since I first started building guitars, everybody --and I mean everybody-- has asked me if I plan to sell any.

And they always seem surprised when I say no--as if no one in his right mind would build guitars just for the fun of it.

[Drak]

It's funny though...ever since I first started building guitars, everybody --and I mean everybody-- has asked me if I plan to sell any.

And they always seem surprised when I say no--as if no one in his right mind would build guitars just for the fun of it.

Yup, I get the exact same question and the same surprised look when I say I never sell them, like that is the only reason anyone would ever bother to build a guitar in the first place.

Strike One for Joe Q. Public.

[low end fuzz]

It's funny though...ever since I first started building guitars, everybody --and I mean everybody-- has asked me if I plan to sell any.

And they always seem surprised when I say no--as if no one in his right mind would build guitars just for the fun of it.

[Christopher]

Ok, I first have to say that I am going to attempt to answer as many of the questions as I can remember.

I have never built a solid body guitar. Four basses, three acoustic and a mandolin but never a solid body. That says nothing about my experience though. I have been wood working and furniture making since I was a young child.

So far as his crazy features he responded to my e-mail where I asked how in god name he came up with this guitar. He said that his first guitar was a nylon string acoustic and he has never played a more comfortable guitar than that. So he wants me to combined his favorite body shape (Ibanez Talman) and his first guitar. Hence the flat fretboard, and oddball string spacing.

I have offically convinced him that a non-adjustable neck is a horrible idea, and talked him in to a two way. So one down too many to go.

I think I am going to take KingFisher's advice. At the very least I'll have a new talman when I'm done. In that respect though, should I make it to the same specs as my talman (except neck through and no trem of course) because I can always add the rollers and file the frets flat later... hopefully I won't have to.

For the record Drak. I'm embarrised of my previous builds because the didn't turn out how I wanted. But he owns one of the basses I built and couldn't be any happier with it.

[Drak]

OK then, this seems like an issue best left off to 2 friends working it out.

It's a very odd situation, I would walk away from it, but you know him enough, you've built a few things, and he seemingly knows you well enough, so there seemingly is a communication platform in place with which to build this bird, at least by design.

Whether it flies or not, ...well, only time will tell.

[fryovanni]

That sheds a whole new light on the subject. One he knows your work. Two this is not a regular commission. You are keeping your work close, and the owner will have not have a regular "client" familiarity with you. I am not going to comment on value, because it as a matter between friends, and I am sure you guys can work that out.

As far as the specs. I only saw a serious issue with the non-adjustable neck. The rest is subjective, and really up to you guys. Don't hesitate to ask questions. Plan every detail well. Hold your standards high, and make it as close to perfect as you can. Don't rush or push your schedule(forget the value of your time-craftsmanship and patience over all else). Make this the finest work you have ever done, and an instrument you will be proud of.

Peace,Rich