My First Commission

[Supernova9]

Unless it's a direct copy or you stick his logo on it, you don't have to worry. Unless he's trademarked the body shape (doubtful). If he's complaining about the desiree, tell him to suck eggs. You aren't selling it, so what's his problem?

If it is Neal Moser, he sounds like a bit of an idiot to be honest. There are many many builders that use body shapes like yours, and even a style of top carve similar to yours.

[hooglebug]

well to be fair i am now selling them - but the body shape isnt even close to being the same -its not a les paul/singlecut type debate. its just the wave on the body. thats it. and as i said i can change that easily. so yeah, the only thing that is the same is the wave. nothing else. hell, why dont prs have a go at me for using natural edge binding. or fender for using a bolt on maple neck for that matter.

sorry, im a bit mad. any other thoughts from anyone?

[Daniel Sorbera]

Don't worry about it. If PRS can get away with their single cuts you can get away with that. Trust me, they are just trying to scare you out of using it, they won't actually take any legal action (because they really don't have any grounds to).

Basically when dealing with lawyers you have to remember that any angry letters they send you are nothing more than ink on paper. You really have nothing to worry about.

However I would advise you not to respond and to take down anything you might have on the web saying you copied the wave from them.

Just ignore them and it will go away.

[hooglebug]

well, i already replied. and i said id change the wave, as i was thinking of doing it anyway to improve the access to the knobs and swtich. i can understand them being a bit pissed off about copying the wave, but to tell me they'd have to take action!? thats a bit much. anyway, i guess i'll have to see what happens

[Ben]

Looks plenty different to my eyes.

Weird that the only one not to cause any fuss is the Manson- the one that is by far the closest to being a direct copy!

[biliousfrog]

Doesn't Moser make BC Rich copies?...I mean blatant copies not just using a particular neck join, headstock shape, trussrod cover etc? Who's to say that he didn't steal the idea from someone else? Many guitar makers have used carved sections in their designs, he wasn't the first & he's kidding himself if he thinks that you'll be the last. He lives thousands of miles away & will never lose business to you so there's no problem. He's just hoping that you'll acknowledge him so that people track him down & he gets more work. I would bet money that the other messages are somehow linked to Moser himself, he's obviously not got enough work to keep himself busy & was probably browsing the web for "ideas".

[eddiewarlock]

Doesn't Moser make BC Rich copies?...I mean blatant copies not just using a particular neck join, headstock shape, trussrod cover etc? Who's to say that he didn't steal the idea from someone else? Many guitar makers have used carved sections in their designs, he wasn't the first & he's kidding himself if he thinks that you'll be the last. He lives thousands of miles away & will never lose business to you so there's no problem. He's just hoping that you'll acknowledge him so that people track him down & he gets more work. I would bet money that the other messages are somehow linked to Moser himself, he's obviously not got enough work to keep himself busy & was probably browsing the web for "ideas".

Neal Moser designed for BC Rich the Bich and the Virgin. He has an agreement with BC RIch to build Biches, Virgins( under the named scythe) and Seagulls. BC Rich owes Neal Moser a shitload of money on royalties from the Bich and Virgin designs.

Also I doubt Neal directly contacted you maybe it was someone from the forums, from which i am also a member.

When i saw the wave guitar i thought you copied that idea from Michael vangerov's model guitar, but the shape of the guitar was different, i like yours better though.

The other models i don't know, they look more like BC Riches than Mosers, but they are still different, i wouldn't be too worried

[Petrol]

At the end of the day you had the courtesy to reference your sources. You stated what you were doing, you have not ripped off his guitar.

If worst came to worse and they could do something, you would be told "Ether stop/don't sell the guitar or you will go to court and here is full proof" not idle "Hey! You copied me!" Playground talk.

I wouldn't change it tbh, just stand your ground. You make truly wonderful instruments, it's just professional jealousy. At the end of the day, your reference your sources and don't seek to rip things off, enough aspects are different from that guitar and if I recall, on yourse you had the idea of integrating the curve into the headstock (if this wasn't on "Moser the pousers" original, if it was then I'll shut up now )

So, ultimately don't get too stressed. A little bit of friendly dialogue would be good, to try to calm the guy down, but be warned that he is protecting his financial intrests first, not necessarily with anything he can back up. So, take what he says with a pinch of salt. Keep posting back here, as the advice of many is better than that of few.

EDIT: Small little question, how did you do your mirror top? Their literally stick a mirror to the top of the guitar it seems, but how did you work it, get it to shape and what did you glue it down with? I'd love to try something similar myself- just don't sue me!

Edited May 22, 2007 by Petrol

[hooglebug]

thanks for all the replies and support about this guys.

and no i dont think the wave was on the headstock of his guitar. it does seem a shame that people who are doing the same thing seemingly cos they love doing it get bogged down in petty arguements about who stole what from who. shouldnt leo fender have had a fit with floyd rose for taking his vibrato bridge design and using it to design his own?

but anyway!

as for the mirror - its acrylic garden mirror. i use a dremel type tool with a little router bit in it to cut it. and or the headstock i use a heat gun to bend it to the shape. its pretty easy to work with really.

EDIT - seems the hate campaign is steppingup. ANOTHER message on my guestbook and another one sent from a 'friend' of mosers. and i have just looked and they all seem to be members of a moser forum

[Robert_the_damned]

Thats some nice good clean work there. I can see why you're getting commisioned jobs!

Your 'wave' guitar is completely differant to Mosers in all respects other than the fact it has a stylised wave carved into it. Infact your carving is quite differant in shape ie not completely flat and parrallel to the body so you've already changed it compared to his design (makes it look damn sexier too!). hell Gibson have more grounds to sue you for making a Les Paul knock off. Yeah you were inspired by his design, he should be proud to have a design that inspires people rather than going arround making idle threats. And anyway who was the first guy to make a six stringed instrument that you strum? surely he can sue everyone for copying it (other than the fact he's long long long dead by now seeing as 'guitar like' instruments are pre-medevil).

As for your 'spikey' lookin' guitar that's my sort of guitar doesn't looks a bit like a BC Beast but not a lot (not got so much 'wing' shape to the back end if that makes any sense) I like it.

Edited May 22, 2007 by Robert_the_damned

[eddiewarlock]

I post at the Neal Moser forum, they are upset because you are selling the design...if it was a one off model for a friend, then it would be OK, but they are upset because you're profiting from Michael Vangerov's design ( which is licensed for Neal Moser to build) try talking to them. I still like your design better as i said, but talk to them

[GregP]

What a crock. It's a feature, not a design, that's being borrowed. You can't copyright the 'wave' carve, and you can't patent it either as far as I know (it doesn't improve upon anything or introduce new functionality).

Anybody crying 'foul' is undereducated and overprotective. Since you've been clean about your inspiration, as already mentioned, you have done no wrong. Nobody's a victim here.

The Vangerov features a pointier version of the PRS headstock. Whoop-dee-doo. I don't think anyone would want Moser to be sued by PRS, and for that matter PRS wouldn't have a case because although the inspiration is clearly there, it's not an exact copy. Probably don't hear people go on about the PRS-like headstock at the Moser forum.

[hooglebug]

I post at the Neal Moser forum, they are upset because you are selling the design...if it was a one off model for a friend, then it would be OK, but they are upset because you're profiting from Michael Vangerov's design ( which is licensed for Neal Moser to build) try talking to them. I still like your design better as i said, but talk to them

why all of a sudden am i getting all this today? is there a post about me or something? if so id like to read it and then maybe i can join in and give my side of it

[Jon]

Very childish to go off and post on ones site the way they are. Hopefully you can get this worked out.

[DanielM]

looking good. that carve in the heel looks fantastic, keep up the good work! and as for the moser dealio, take a look at it, and just hope it blows over as you don't build direct copies and evenso you're not even selling the Desiree right?

[hooglebug]

im trying to sell them yes, along with a single cut version. go over to my site (freewebs page link at the bottom) to see them and the comments! it is all rather silly, and seeming worse as it goes on. they're attacking me for stealing all my 'ideas' (as they put it) from neil moser. yet the only thing they can be talking about is that wave, which is from a gitar that moser makes but DIDNT design. so their arguement isn even correct. but anyway, i'll jus have to wait and see what happens i guess

[eddiewarlock]

I post at the Neal Moser forum, they are upset because you are selling the design...if it was a one off model for a friend, then it would be OK, but they are upset because you're profiting from Michael Vangerov's design ( which is licensed for Neal Moser to build) try talking to them. I still like your design better as i said, but talk to them

why all of a sudden am i getting all this today? is there a post about me or something? if so id like to read it and then maybe i can join in and give my side of it

Hmm yes there is man...look, i don't think it's a big deal but they do...sorry you feel attacked, but the thing is, Neal has a history of getting screwed over his guitar designs, everybody on the forum knows that , well, they get a bit protective, again, i'm sorry if i came across like i was attacking you, not my intention at all

[hooglebug]

no i didnt think you were attacking me. they are tho lol. can you put the link on so i can read it?

[mikevirok]

I like the design Hooglebug! I am a fan of nice, even body style.

[jmrentis]

I post at the Neal Moser forum, they are upset because you are selling the design...if it was a one off model for a friend, then it would be OK, but they are upset because you're profiting from Michael Vangerov's design ( which is licensed for Neal Moser to build) try talking to them. I still like your design better as i said, but talk to them

why all of a sudden am i getting all this today? is there a post about me or something? if so id like to read it and then maybe i can join in and give my side of it

Hmm yes there is man...look, i don't think it's a big deal but they do...sorry you feel attacked, but the thing is, Neal has a history of getting screwed over his guitar designs, everybody on the forum knows that , well, they get a bit protective, again, i'm sorry if i came across like i was attacking you, not my intention at all

That is quite unfortunate for Neal that he has had designs ripped off before, but I can't see how thats Hooglebugs fault and don't see how it's fair that he is getting all the grief from this past problem. If it's not the same and he's not duplicating or trying to duplicate the design, then they should ease off. I understand their concern but Hoogle has been nothing but understanding and honest as to what his ideas and intentions are and has even responded trying to explain, in a respectable fashion no less. Yet, they still are at it.

Anyhow, nice stuff Hoogle, wouldn't worry about them. Everyone here sees that it's not the same and didn't have the intention of being the same, not much else you can do and there's nothing they can do. Also, thanks to Eddie for trying to mediate the problem between the two sites, I hope the other site can come to their senses and see that their is no intention of a rip off here, if there has been I believe Hoogle would have said something about it long before this, like check out my wicked Mike V looking guitar or whatever. You can definately try talking to them, but the way in which you were approached, doesn't sound like you will get a fair jury, couldn't hurt I guess. Hopefully, this will work itself out eventually here, as I said if you go through all of Hoogles work, you can see that he had no intention of taking that design and even more important it is not even the same design. Good luck Hooglebug and hopefully the sites can get past this as their is no foul play being done. J

[hooglebug]

thanks for the kind words. like you say, it doesnt seem as though any of them would even try to listen to me, as im STILL getting emails and messages along the lines of - 'what will you 'design' next, a les paul?' o dear. but yeah, id still like to see this forum post about me and maybe i can at least try talking to them

[eddiewarlock]

thanks for the kind words. like you say, it doesnt seem as though any of them would even try to listen to me, as im STILL getting emails and messages along the lines of - 'what will you 'design' next, a les paul?' o dear. but yeah, id still like to see this forum post about me and maybe i can at least try talking to them

http://mcs.acidpit.org/viewtopic.php?t=14020

Here's the topic, but you must sign in in order to view the discussion.

[hooglebug]

got this today "MCS Uk: Dear Sir,after discussion we feel we have no alternative to ask you to withdraw this model or we shall issue a cease and desist as you have already stated that this is where you have got your design from.MCS Uk take forgery of a design very seriously. Feel free to contact me at mcsguitars@lycos.com. You selling designs taken from MCS guitars will not be tolerated. Thanks,Ron"

now this was posted on the guestbook on my website, NOT emailed to me in reply to an email i sent to them. this seems very odd to me. what do people think?

[Ben]

got this today "MCS Uk: Dear Sir,after discussion we feel we have no alternative to ask you to withdraw this model or we shall issue a cease and desist as you have already stated that this is where you have got your design from.MCS Uk take forgery of a design very seriously. Feel free to contact me at mcsguitars@lycos.com. You selling designs taken from MCS guitars will not be tolerated. Thanks,Ron"

now this was posted on the guestbook on my website, NOT emailed to me in reply to an email i sent to them. this seems very odd to me. what do people think?

The lycos email address (that anyone could register) is different to the address given on the MCS website.

[jmrentis]

It sounds like that post is more of a forgery that your design could ever be, lol. To me it sounds like they are bsing you in attempts to scare you from finishing it. It's completely up to you though if you feel it's serious and are worried by all means do what you need to do, but as I said before the manner in which you have been approached say a lot about the situation in general. If this was a very serious matter and your design was in a direct copy, I think you would have been approached much more porfessionally and directly, than a bunch of people making insulting posts on your page, especially when you have an email and have emailed them. Also, what you can do is reply to them and tell them you won't stop because it's not the same design, if it's different they have no claim and you have a bunch of people here that have seen both and agree they are different, so I don't see the case. Again, do what you feel needs to be done, but I would stand strong on your case that it's different because it is and verify everything so you know these people are making phoney posts trying to scare you out of buillding your guitars. Just how I see, I could be wrong so see what the others feel. As you said the way the note was given to you is very fishy to me. Aside from if it's real or not, your design is different and viewed as different by everyone that isn't on that site including a member that is from their site, so again I don't see their case. Good luck and keep us posted.