grungehead Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 is there anything wrong with having an uneven scale length? i.e., the distance from 12th fret to bridge not being the same as the distance from nut to 12th fret? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grungehead Posted July 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 part 2: im using a TOM bridge at an angle; the 'd' and 'g' string saddles are in scale length but high and low e arent. is this normal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killemall8 Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 part 2: im using a TOM bridge at an angle; the 'd' and 'g' string saddles are in scale length but high and low e arent. is this normal? yes this is common. the bass side strings ar meant to be further away for compensation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 is there anything wrong with having an uneven scale length? i.e., the distance from 12th fret to bridge not being the same as the distance from nut to 12th fret? Yes, you either slotted your fingerboard wrong, or are using a neck that is not compatible with your build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grungehead Posted July 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 is there anything wrong with having an uneven scale length? i.e., the distance from 12th fret to bridge not being the same as the distance from nut to 12th fret? Yes, you either slotted your fingerboard wrong, or are using a neck that is not compatible with your build. specifically what would happen? i only have one neck for this build... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 The intonation would be off, your notes will either be more sharp or more flat as you play higher frets. Basically, it will sound really bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axxion Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 The intonation would be off, your notes will either be more sharp or more flat as you play higher frets. Basically, it will sound really bad. cant intonation be fixed? i'll try and post some pics but in short the 'd' and 'g' strings are fine but low e is far back and high is really pretty close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick500 Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 You usually have a fraction of an inch of adjustment room for intonation. How far off is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 The question's incomplete without some information, namely: where are the High E and Low E in their "range of movement", and as Rick asks, how far off are they from being intonated? Do you know how to intonate? That'd be the first thing to try. It's common and even necessary in almost all cases for the Low E to be a bit further back from scale length. It's also common for the High E to be a bit forward from scale length if it's all the way forward in its range of motion; however, it should only be by the barest smidge... you NEVER need to compensate any of the saddles closer than the scale length. That would defy the laws of physics. But you'll still have even factory guitars allowing the high E to be, like I said, just the barest amount forward. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billm90 Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 I have some guitars that are like this and sound really bad. Measure from the nut to the 12th fret. that is how far you need the center line of your bridge to be from the 12th fret (where the string make contact). this will allow you 1/2 of your intonation adjustment movement forward or backwards to fine tune. Hope that makes sense. otherwise, if it is really off, nothing will ever be in tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamboMadCow Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 I have some guitars that are like this and sound really bad. Measure from the nut to the 12th fret. that is how far you need the center line of your bridge to be from the 12th fret (where the string make contact). this will allow you 1/2 of your intonation adjustment movement forward or backwards to fine tune. Hope that makes sense. otherwise, if it is really off, nothing will ever be in tune. So here's a question I have that I've been wondering for a while. The standard gibson explorer has 22 frets. The last 2 frets are right where the curve to the bottom horn starts which can potentially make it a little more difficult to play those higher notes. It's scale length is also 22 3/4 and I believe it has the standard width frets. My explorer guitar project is far in the future but I want to know this before I start. Is it possible, in building my own neck and guitar, to make an explorer a 24 fret neck where only 1 fret is in that starting curve? I would like it to also be the jumbo sized frets since I have big fingers and it feels more comfortable fitting several of my fingers in the bigger fret space. Is this possible to do at all or do I just have to stick with the 22 fret due to intonation and such? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattharris75 Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) So here's a question I have that I've been wondering for a while. The standard gibson explorer has 22 frets. The last 2 frets are right where the curve to the bottom horn starts which can potentially make it a little more difficult to play those higher notes. It's scale length is also 22 3/4 and I believe it has the standard width frets. My explorer guitar project is far in the future but I want to know this before I start. Is it possible, in building my own neck and guitar, to make an explorer a 24 fret neck where only 1 fret is in that starting curve? I would like it to also be the jumbo sized frets since I have big fingers and it feels more comfortable fitting several of my fingers in the bigger fret space. Is this possible to do at all or do I just have to stick with the 22 fret due to intonation and such? First off, in order to have 24 frets and have the neck meet the body at the same fret you just have to move your bridge toward the nut the proper amount to compensate for the distance that the neck has to be lengthened to account for the extra frets. Also, a Gibson scale is typically 24 3/4", not 22 3/4". And 'jumbo' frets refers to the size of the fret wire, not the distance between the frets. If you want a wider distance between frets you should at least go with a Fender 25.5" scale if you're trying to stick close to the norms, but you can also do a custom scale even longer than that to give you more space in between frets. Edited July 20, 2007 by mattharris75 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 Stop your build until you have read up on intonation and how scales are derived..-Article. Side reading in case you want a little more on the octave-link You can use stewmacs calculator to help you place a bridge, but if you are going to build an instrument. The first thing you should have a solid grasp on is why frets are located where they are and why intonation corrections need to be made. After you read up on the subject, ask questions if something is not clear. When you understand the theory you will never have to guess why you are placing a bridge here or there, what these distances mean, or what dictates the location of frets in relation to the bridge saddles. P.S. Since string gauge and properties are directly related to this subject you would do well to go to the Daddario site and read there free information also. Do this and you will prevent yourself from having a gap in your understanding that WILL haunt you until you learn it. Better now than after you muck up two or three builds . Peace,Rich P.S. My suggestion is not only offered to the author of this topic . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grungehead Posted July 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 (edited) Stop your build until you have read up on intonation and how scales are derived..-Article. Side reading in case you want a little more on the octave-link You can use stewmacs calculator to help you place a bridge, but if you are going to build an instrument. The first thing you should have a solid grasp on is why frets are located where they are and why intonation corrections need to be made. After you read up on the subject, ask questions if something is not clear. When you understand the theory you will never have to guess why you are placing a bridge here or there, what these distances mean, or what dictates the location of frets in relation to the bridge saddles. P.S. Since string gauge and properties are directly related to this subject you would do well to go to the Daddario site and read there free information also. Do this and you will prevent yourself from having a gap in your understanding that WILL haunt you until you learn it. Better now than after you muck up two or three builds . Peace,Rich P.S. My suggestion is not only offered to the author of this topic . whoah i just made the template.. i havent built anything yet i just looked at it and said to myself, 'damn this looks off'. i took a piece of masking tape, cut it to the length from the nut to the 12th fret, and then took that tape and placed it from the 12th fret and marked on my template. the mark is the center of the TOM but i guess my question is how far back can the low 'e' be? Actually... a better question is what angle is the TOM set at? i've searched but IMO the PG search function sucks.. right now i have it drawn on the template at about a 10 deg angle. Edited July 21, 2007 by grungehead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted July 21, 2007 Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 Hmm, I remember reading something along the lines of "draw a straight line, then set the high E 1/8" higher". Does that sound about right? I've never done a TOM style guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick500 Posted July 21, 2007 Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 I'd probably move the low E side down 1/8" rather than move the high E up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiKro Posted July 21, 2007 Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 >snip< whoah i just made the template.. i havent built anything yet i just looked at it and said to myself, 'damn this looks off'. i took a piece of masking tape, cut it to the length from the nut to the 12th fret, and then took that tape and placed it from the 12th fret and marked on my template. the mark is the center of the TOM but i guess my question is how far back can the low 'e' be? Actually... a better question is what angle is the TOM set at? i've searched but IMO the PG search function sucks.. right now i have it drawn on the template at about a 10 deg angle. May I suggest you start at Stewmacs site on scale length, use the fret calculator based on your build and it will give you most of the dimensions you are seeking. Stewmac Link Just a friendly suggestion MK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted July 21, 2007 Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 Stop your build until you have read up on intonation and how scales are derived..-Article. Side reading in case you want a little more on the octave-link You can use stewmacs calculator to help you place a bridge, but if you are going to build an instrument. The first thing you should have a solid grasp on is why frets are located where they are and why intonation corrections need to be made. After you read up on the subject, ask questions if something is not clear. When you understand the theory you will never have to guess why you are placing a bridge here or there, what these distances mean, or what dictates the location of frets in relation to the bridge saddles. P.S. Since string gauge and properties are directly related to this subject you would do well to go to the Daddario site and read there free information also. Do this and you will prevent yourself from having a gap in your understanding that WILL haunt you until you learn it. Better now than after you muck up two or three builds . Peace,Rich P.S. My suggestion is not only offered to the author of this topic . whoah i just made the template.. i havent built anything yet i just looked at it and said to myself, 'damn this looks off'. i took a piece of masking tape, cut it to the length from the nut to the 12th fret, and then took that tape and placed it from the 12th fret and marked on my template. the mark is the center of the TOM but i guess my question is how far back can the low 'e' be? Actually... a better question is what angle is the TOM set at? i've searched but IMO the PG search function sucks.. right now i have it drawn on the template at about a 10 deg angle. The suggestion was aimed at saving you from frustration, and allowing you to be able to proceed with confidence in your understanding (I hope that is how you took it). I hope you had time to read through the articles, and have a clearer picture of how these things work(it is very very important for you to have that knowledge and skill set). As far as what to plan for when you are placing any bridge(or saddle on and acoustic). You need to look at how much adjustment(range) you can get out of the given saddles(during your planning stages). On an acoustic you can choose to use a couple different saddle thicknesses(1/8" to 3/16"). This allows you to file the top of the saddle where each string passes over it to make corrections. Solid body bridges tend to have much more play, but you need to look at the bridge you are using and plan based on its ability to adjust. As far as "ruff" distances to expect(I say ruff because it will vary with string gauge, scale length, and how high your action is). Larger strings, longer scale length, and higher action all would increase required compensation. Given scale length is the same. Your string gauge and action will dictate how much of a varience you will need between the set of strings. Generally the action will be set slightly higher on larger strings and slightly lower on smaller strings(lower action= less comp). Smaller gauge strings will require less comp than larger(smaller gauge=less comp). Thus your high E(if it is a standard six) requires the least comp. Generally it is set very close to your actual scale length(compensation is adding length to comp. and should not be less than your actual scale). The low E is commonly set to about 1/8" longer in length(on a TOM, because of its range of adjustment) to allow you to start closer to the compensated length needed for the larger gauge and action. You still have the saddle adjustment range to fine tune to your gauge and action. Knowing what you know about string gauge and action look at a couple guitars that have been properly intonated, and look closely at the relationship of the G when it is wound, and unwound. I hope that helps, but really Doolins article is much more complete, and will give you a SOLID understanding. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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