Cryogenic Treatment

[flickoflash]

what if this process was applied to guitar hardware & pickups ?

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tonefreaks...-treatment.html

A brief history...

Scientists have been experimenting with the use of extreme cold to strengthen metal since the mid-1800s, but it wasn't until the advent of space travel that cryogenic processing really came into its own. NASA engineers analyzed spacecraft that had returned from the cold vacuum of space, and discovered that many of the metal parts came back stronger than they were before spending time in space. Today, cryogenics is an essential part of NASA's space strategy.

A description of the treatment process

No, we don't send your items to the moon! We place them in a processor where they are gradually cooled with nitrogen gas to -300 degrees Fahrenheit. That temperature is maintained for at least eight hours. The length of time varies by material and desired results.

After the cooling cycle is complete, the item is slowly warmed back to room temperature. Then the object is heat-treated, with temperatures of 100 to 400 degrees Fahrenheit, depending on the composition of the item. Finally, the item is gradually returned to room temperature. The complete process takes a minimum of 24 hours.

What is actually happening to the object?

This one-time process tightens grain structure creating a denser microstructure while increasing surface area. This improves the path of energy and provides increased stress relief and dimensional stability. The bottom line — components last longer and perform better.

Edited August 18, 2007 by flickoflash

[Jon]

What would be the point in hardening pickups and your hardware? Router bits and planer blades, sure. But it's not like the hardware you use on your guitar is incredibly weak.

[thegarehanman]

what if this process was applied to guitar hardware & pickups ?

You'd find a grand new way of wasting money on improvements you'll never need or hear. Of course, some joe is going to say he hears a difference, and then he's going to convince everyone else of it, and charge them tons of money to have it done to their guitars.

[mattharris75]

Plenty of people make wads of cash based solely on the concept of overkill, in a wide variety of industries...So many people want to be able to say they have something exclusive or different that they will pay exorbitant amounts of money to make it happen. I wish I had a process or product to take advantage of those chumps.

Note - This is not to say that the cryo process is not perfectly valid and applicable in certain applications and industries.

[fryovanni]

Include in your proposed theory on how this would improve the performance of a guitar. The wood that these parts are attached to, and explain why it would not just as easily deter from the desired Tibre. Remember by design we do not use rigid materials for an instrument. For example we look for maximum flexability to weight in strings. If you made a string rigid it would be heading in the worst direction possible for performance.

Peace,Rich

[postal]

Forget it- it's for race engine parts and bladed tools. You want to imrove your guitar, slap some KY on the neck. You'll be able to play it faster. Cheap to.

[flickoflash]

Include in your proposed theory on how this would improve the performance of a guitar. The wood that these parts are attached to, and explain why it would not just as easily deter from the desired Tibre. Remember by design we do not use rigid materials for an instrument. For example we look for maximum flexability to weight in strings. If you made a string rigid it would be heading in the worst direction possible for performance.

Peace,Rich

http://www.deanmarkley.com/Strings/Electri...ueSteelEl.shtml

http://www.callahamguitars.com/

The Cryogentic treatment we use is a industrial process which stress relieves and modifies the molecular structure of metal to a far more uniform grain alignment. We have been using it since 1996 to increase our cutting tool life and on all our electronic components. Nearly all major manufacturing industries use this process on their tooling to increase performance of their products. Every major NASCAR team treats their engine components and parts of their electrical system for added horsepower.

Cryogenically treating our pickups has made such a difference that now I cannot listen to untreated pickups without it bothering me. We can measure an 18% increase in output but more importantly the tone especially overdriven is smoother and has more sustain. Overtones are produced in tune and thus create a fuller rounded sound. Overtones from untreated pickups are dissonant and create a beating that drives me crazy especially when playing overdriven.

Why is this important? Because single coil pickups do not sound good when they are overwound. Strat and Tele players especially those who play blues and rock are looking for more sustain and volume without having to work their fingers to the bone to get it. Playing with Humbucking pickups is easy, not so with single coils. Cryogenic treatment makes single coils play easy with faster response and feel. So many people make the mistake of trying "hotter" pickups and buying something that has a large (over 7.0k) resistance value, thinking that this will give them sustain.

First, the resistance measurement of a pickup DOES NOT indicate how "powerful" or "hot" the pickup will perform. For some reason pickup manufacturers do not relate performance in terms of voltage, current, or watts. I'm not going to try to buck the system, but do not get caught up in the idea resistance as a measure of power.

What does happen when traditional single coils become overwound is response is slowed (because of increased resistance), bass response becomes muddy (because of increased inductance) and lastly highs become thin and bright (because of a decrease in capacitance). All of which are bad in terms of musical tone. It doesn't matter if you are playing 50's country or hard rock, a muddy bass and thin high end does not work.

The pickups I have Fralin wind for us are done specifically to have a clear bass and a warm high end with a wide flat frequency response. The cryo treatment is the icing on the cake. Our bridge pickup with the base plate is as close to a humbucker for sustain and feel as you can get with a single coil. And with a roll of the volume knob everything cleans up for the piano like tones and clarity associated with great single coil pickups.

Cryogenics started with the Super Conductor / Super Collider to accelerate particles to the speed of light. Like many discoveries made by science it works its way down to the common man, or in this case, guitar players and improved guitar tone.

Edited August 19, 2007 by flickoflash

[flickoflash]

What would be the point in hardening pickups and your hardware? Router bits and planer blades, sure. But it's not like the hardware you use on your guitar is incredibly weak.

Cryogenics started with the Super Conductor / Super Collider to accelerate particles to the speed of light.

[MiKro]

I don't know crap about it. But maybe ask Ted Williams if his head is better now than before????????

[tubab0y]

One legitimate thing I could think of would be hardening floyd rose type bridges (the knife edges) and the posts.

[flickoflash]

Include in your proposed theory on how this would improve the performance of a guitar. The wood that these parts are attached to, and explain why it would not just as easily deter from the desired Tibre. Remember by design we do not use rigid materials for an instrument. For example we look for maximum flexability to weight in strings. If you made a string rigid it would be heading in the worst direction possible for performance.

Peace,Rich

Cryogenic Processing

Electronics - Audio components

Cryogenics changes the way current flows in a conductor. Aluminum, brass, copper, tin, and lead used in the electron- ics industry are affected by cryogenics. All of these materials exhibit longer wear, and more durability, but they also exhibit a better conductivity rating. When these materials are in the molten state during the metal-making process, as the solidification takes place, some molecules get caught in a random pattern. And we know that molecules do move about at sub- zero and deep cryogenic temperatures, albeit slowly. Liken it if you will to water freezing or crystallizing as it turns to ice. The molecules move to form into a tighter, realigned pattern. Upon returning to room temperature, the molecules stay in this new relationship, producing less random, more even spacing, which in turn reduces the open areas between the grid matrixes to one another. The resulting product exhibits a better electrical current flow. It also strengthens solder to make their joints stronger and less subject to lifting. The printed circuit board material itself loses the stress it has, which helps the board last longer and puts less strain on component parts. The increase in conductivity has been measured between 5% and 10%. This helps cabling, wire, solder runs, and transformers to operate more efficiently.

Cryogenic treatment of stereo components produces a permanent change to the component that allows your system to transmit much more information. The result is improved sound reproduction without sacrificing any sound quality you presently enjoy, better imaging and staging, greater separation of individual voices, richer coloring, more presence and impact, greater clarity without loss of warmth, more definition in the upper and lower registers without added shrillness or boominess.

For stereo speakers, the same stress that limits a trumpet from resonating properly is removed to allow the speaker to vibrate evenly. The proper combination is to treat the speaker and the metal support structure as a unit to allow the stresses to release in both parts, taking the tugs and pulls out of the system. Music from CDs is richer and deeper in tonal attributes. Transformer magnetic cores saturate to a lesser extent, and there is a lower hysteresis in transformers.

Tests by major companies found advantages

Tests done by Boeing/Sunstrand demonstrated cryogenic processing extended the life of circuit boards in military applications, specifically boards used in cruise missiles. Tests done by Honeywell on experimental thin film magnetic memory wafers showed increased conductivity of metallic layers, reduced residual stress between layers, and possible (but not fully confirmed) "healing" of vacancies in the layers. Tests on transformers showed treated transformers had significantly less hysterisis. The magnetic core saturated less. Tests on transistors showed a decrease in rise time. Other tests indicate greatly increased contact life on relays, switches, and circuit breakers.

Parts with plastic fascias should have the fascia loosened to prevent breakage due to differential contraction between the plastic and the metal chassis.

Please note that deep cryogenic treatment of audio components is still considered an experimental process. We cannot guarantee that all products mentioned are suitable for this process due to differences in quality and type.

Audio components will require a break-in period before optimum sound is achieved and may extend longer than the manufacturer suggests. All items that have previous break-in must have a second break-in period. We will take every precaution possible to assure your satisfaction, but due to the wide variety types and quality of components that exist, we cannot guarantee that all are suitable to be cryogenically processed. We will be happy to work with you and discuss each individual situation to help assess its suitability. All handling is done with the utmost of care.

Some components the we Cryogenic process

Stereo speakers, Transformers, Cabling and Cords, Electronic components, Printed circuit boards, Vacum tubes, Amplifiers, Power supplies, CD players, CD's, DVD players, Power cords, Interconnect cables, Speaker cables, Isolation tables, Switches, Contacts, Flexible Circuits, AC receptacles

[flickoflash]

what if this process was applied to guitar hardware & pickups ?

You'd find a grand new way of wasting money on improvements you'll never need or hear. Of course, some joe is going to say he hears a difference, and then he's going to convince everyone else of it, and charge them tons of money to have it done to their guitars.

http://www.nwcryo.com/pricelist_master.html

looks rather cheap to me

[brian d]

Cryogenic guitars:

(clickable)

Brian

[thegarehanman]

what if this process was applied to guitar hardware & pickups ?

You'd find a grand new way of wasting money on improvements you'll never need or hear. Of course, some joe is going to say he hears a difference, and then he's going to convince everyone else of it, and charge them tons of money to have it done to their guitars.

http://www.nwcryo.com/pricelist_master.html

looks rather cheap to me

Than by all means, go for it. Tell use the wonders you discover. Keep in mind you're talking to a mechanical engineering student who studies this stuff on a daily basis and understands the applications. You're wasting your time here; I'm not saying that to burst your bubble. I'm just trying to save you time and money.

peace,

russ

[fryovanni]

Like I said. Give me YOUR theory on how this will improve the timbre.

I saw the pitch. I understand the electrical aspects. Reducing resistance in conductors I buy, but the pickup is a part of a much bigger signal chain and you could improve many aspects of that chain if current flow was your concern. This is a good quote,

Please note that deep cryogenic treatment of audio components is still considered an experimental process. We cannot guarantee that all products mentioned are suitable for this process due to differences in quality and type.

. Audio files are certainly a great target audience though. Think through your audio circuit and then put a 5% change in resistance(not impeadance) in the pickup in perspective. There is a good reason why Fralin calls it "icing on the cake", and specifically says it is used in conjunction with a change in the winding configuration.

. I have used Blue Steel strings and they were possibly a tad brighter when first installed, but did not last any longer than any other string I have used. Markley gets pretty specific on what makes them better,

The String

That's right, this is the one everyone's been talking about. It's simply amazing what a little -320º liquid nitrogen can do to a guitar string. If I were you, I'd put on a set and see what all the noise is about. Twice the tone and twice the life.

WOW twice the tone(LOL), and twice the life(not from my experience with them).

Another quote;

Cryogenically treating our pickups has made such a difference that now I cannot listen to untreated pickups without it bothering me. We can measure an 18% increase in output but more importantly the tone especially overdriven is smoother and has more sustain. Overtones are produced in tune and thus create a fuller rounded sound. Overtones from untreated pickups are dissonant and create a beating that drives me crazy especially when playing overdriven.

Pickups are not increasing their output by 18% by using this process alone. Possibly in conjuntion with a different winding configuration. What bands does this increased output favor? Is that the responce you are looking for? Overtones produced in tune. Well that is a change in the timbre, but no, your pickups will not change the way your string vibrates(well effects of the magnets not withstanding). A pickup will have a unique resonant responce, but that is more about the pickup design as a whole. One way or the other saying that this process is going to in and of itself make your guitar play with perfect integer tunings is silly. Actually a large part of the tibre of a fretted guitar is the subtle dissonant responce. But as a pitch for the process or product it sounds cool huh. No doubt the pickups will have a unique responce(and that may be really great), but it is only a part of the chain(important part, but a part).

One more time, I would like to hear your vision of the instrument as a whole(and as it is electric, that has to include tuners to amp and cabs). That would seem to be the only way to evaluate the potential of how this kind of process could effect what you hear. Just for the heck of it what do you think other environmental changes could also effect timbre as much if not more than this process.

Peace,Rich

[SwedishLuthier]

A cryogenic treatment to wood might actually be interesting to do. The finish luthier Roukangas (unsure of the spelling) use heat treatment to “age” wood in a short time. Haven’t tried one of his guitars but the concept is *interesting*. The cryogenic treatment might do similar things to wood, or just simply make it crack all together…

All together I think Russ is spot on with his first comment. If this process does anything it is probably to marginal to be noticeable. I say probably because I have no first hand experience, just me thinking out loud here, BTW have anyone tested those cryo pups from Fralin? No reviews at Harmony Central…)

At the same time it’s bound to be a Ed Roman type of guy that swear by this mumbo jumbo process to be the new holy grail of sound and charge you hilarious amounts of money for stuff that HE sells that has undergone this process in HIS special way. We have way too much marketing hype surrounding everything guitar and I’m pretty sick about it.

And another thing. What IF the cryo treatment of guitar parts really change the way the guitar sounds. Then what about those people that try to recreate every tiny thin from those vintage guitars from -54. A cryo treated guitar (if anything happens) will not sound “like they used to” and would probably be discarded just because of that.

[GregP]

Re: the pickups, I call voodoo. Well, maybe not "voodoo" because there is a scientifically quantifiable change going on, and voodoo implies that everything is ONLY in the person's mind. But the person who wrote that has their facts misrepresented right from the beginning-- for example, talking about how a humbucker has more "sustain". A humbucker does NOT give your guitar more sustain. The increased output typically associated with a humbucker will saturate a tube amp to the clipping point, which in turn manifests as a form of compression. As the level produced by the guitar starts to taper off, the volume of the amp stays the same until it comes below the point that the clipping is occurring. This makes the amp maintain a consistent volume for longer. Take the amp out of the equation, and even the perceived sustain is gone and everything comes down to the guitar's construction.

But the string will still eventually lose energy based ONLY on the construction of the guitar, the strings used, and the effect of the magnetic pull of the pickups. A humbucker is more likely to DECREASE sustain because of the greater magnetic pull damping the string.

<shrug>

To recap, I'm sure that cryogenics do SOMETHING to metal components. But I'm not sure that the "something" translates to what this person is claiming, and I'm absolutely positive that this person is using marketing-speak/blinders/pseudo-science in place of empirical tests.

Greg

[flickoflash]

Re: the pickups, I call voodoo. Well, maybe not "voodoo" because there is a scientifically quantifiable change going on, and voodoo implies that everything is ONLY in the person's mind. But the person who wrote that has their facts misrepresented right from the beginning-- for example, talking about how a humbucker has more "sustain". A humbucker does NOT give your guitar more sustain. The increased output typically associated with a humbucker will saturate a tube amp to the clipping point, which in turn manifests as a form of compression. As the level produced by the guitar starts to taper off, the volume of the amp stays the same until it comes below the point that the clipping is occurring. This makes the amp maintain a consistent volume for longer. Take the amp out of the equation, and even the perceived sustain is gone and everything comes down to the guitar's construction.

But the string will still eventually lose energy based ONLY on the construction of the guitar, the strings used, and the effect of the magnetic pull of the pickups. A humbucker is more likely to DECREASE sustain because of the greater magnetic pull damping the string.

<shrug>

To recap, I'm sure that cryogenics do SOMETHING to metal components. But I'm not sure that the "something" translates to what this person is claiming, and I'm absolutely positive that this person is using marketing-speak/blinders/pseudo-science in place of empirical tests.

Greg

http://www.jenalabs.com/cryogenics/cryo-jena.html

[SwedishLuthier]

Flickoflash. Most of the links you post are to sites were people are trying to sell you/us something. Those are just full of exactly the type of mumbo jumbo I was referring to in my first post. I think that the consensus is that there might be some use of this in some parts of the guitar (the steel knife pivot points in a FR tremolo?) but in general not.

As Rich said: It would be interesting to hear what you think. Give us your opinion, not just quotes from other sites, selling things (cryo treatment)

[thegarehanman]

And another point to be made is this: if it would in fact have an application in guitar parts, would it yield better results (how much better?) and be comparably priced to heat treatment? Or would it be more economical to replace knige edges with other metals all together such as carbide or something along those lines?

[flickoflash]

And another point to be made is this: if it would in fact have an application in guitar parts, would it yield better results (how much better?) and be comparably priced to heat treatment? Or would it be more economical to replace knige edges with other metals all together such as carbide or something along those lines?

Seems you didn't read the tech sheets on how it is done . First the temperatures are dropped to -300 which realigns the molecular structure & then it Is Heat treated after to lock it in. I have tried the strings & yes I do see a difference , they seem more active & last longer & are brighter. & yes they are Stainless steel. As far as electronics & do know the process increases conductivity ( the flow of electron have very low resistance & can travel faster) I am no student but have been in the guitar research & development for nearly 30 years . I have no claim to what the process may do but believe it may have some impact just the same as using different metals for bridges or woods do to a guitar final sound. The links that I posted are not just from companies who have something to sell . If you bothered searching you would find many are researching this field. Think you should put your efforts more into proving your disclaimer to the hundreds of companies doing the actual process & research than trying to belittle someone for suggesting if it may be applicable to the guitars. Many are stuck in the Given old technologies & are close minded to anything possibly new.

As far as the pricing it looks to me it cost as little as a pack of good strings to have guitar parts processed

Edited August 19, 2007 by flickoflash

[flickoflash]

A cryogenic treatment to wood might actually be interesting to do. The finish luthier Roukangas (unsure of the spelling) use heat treatment to “age” wood in a short time. Haven’t tried one of his guitars but the concept is *interesting*. The cryogenic treatment might do similar things to wood, or just simply make it crack all together…

If you have access to LPF I did some research on microwaving & ultra sound waving raw wood a few years ago

[thegarehanman]

Sorry, didn't read all the tech sheets, I don't click on tons of random links without a compelling paragraph or two to do so. . I did see that there was some heat treatment involved. However, it seemed like you were more concerned with the cryogenic tempering than the heat treatment. What I was saying was, how much does the cryogenic tempering add that just heat treatment doesn't? Don't think for a second that I'm stuck in a rut as far as materials and hardware goes (although I would ask you the same question with your obsession with genuine sounding PAF pickups!). Actually, I'm very interested in the application of composites in instruments...within reason. The truth is, you don't need extra strength in guitar hardware, and if you do for some reason, than metals are probably not the right direction. Can you tell us what treating a metal with LN does to the resonant frequency of metals and how that would be favorable? Honestly, it seems that your enthusiasm in these ideas has completely colored your opinions on the results, and I question your objectivity.

peace,

russ

[flickoflash]

(although I would ask you the same question with your obsession with genuine sounding PAF pickups!).

peace,

russ

See again you must not read before posting cause I am pushing for pickup builder to move on & try some new things , in fact a flickoflash model pickup may soon be available from a reputable builder which touches again on non same old same old line of thinking. Does wood of the same species sound different from guitar to guitar ... is it maybe something to do with it cells formations & alignments ?

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/

Edited August 19, 2007 by flickoflash

[thegarehanman]

I'm not interested in every word in every link you provide; what I do know is that you have a thread, the contents of your "tesla..." thread (hold links and other filler) have suggestions on how to replicate the sound of PAFs by prematurely aging parts. I'm not trying to discredit you entirely or whatever you'd like to think; I'm merely showing you what could be considered holes in your arguments and other ways that may compel people to listen to what you have to say. However, it seems the both of us are just a tad bit incorrigible, and for that reason, I see little point in me playing any further role in this discussion.

Edited August 19, 2007 by thegarehanman