Upgrading To Tubes

[Xanthus]

Hey all, it's that time. The time in a young man's life when he spends the entirety of his 21st birthday money on an amp, regardless of unfinished guitar projects or the price of gas or college loans to pay off.

Here are my picks:

-Peavey JSX 212

-Carvin V3 212

-Line 6 Vetta II 212

Yeah, I'm aware the Vetta is no tube amp But it's the next logical step from my PodXT, so I threw it in there for comparison. I've been making a pro-con sheet over the past few weeks or so, so I'll just copy/paste it here.

- - - - - - -

Vetta II

+switch to radically different sounds quickly – how much do I really need it?

+double tracker

+2 amps at one

+more effects/routing at once

+speakers

+bought PAF Pros to interface with this amp

+stereo out – 2xtrack/2amps/stereoeffects

+direct recording – though micing a speaker might (will?) sound better

-CC model pack. I’d only use 2-4 of them, and can buy them all for an extra $50. amp models would be pretty much useless with a tube amp. Only effects would matter.

-3 more cab models, once again useless.

-2 mic models, once again USELESS

-4 effect models, only 1 I’d use

- - - - - - -

JSX

+tubes - duh

+3 channels – need as many as possible

+can run the pod in effects loop

+noise gate on amp

-no direct recording – not always able to crank and mic an amp

- - - - - - -

Carvin V3

+3 channels and tubes

+direct out recording (or does it?)

+2 effects loops, easier to use than JSX, with effects Tail

+midi programmable – operate amp and pod through 1 controller?

+5 preamp tubes instead of the JSX’s 3

+wider, more adjustable EQX controls

-more expensive than the jsx

-haven’t played through it

- - - - - - -

Mesa Boogie Roadster

-Keep praying

- - - - - - -

I know there are a few little points in there that I'm probably forgetting. But the main concern for me is to have as many channels/options as possible. It's the reason I bought the POD. I'm one of those guys who has a different sound for each song, and I'd like to keep that as much as possible. I figure that keeping the POD instead of selling it (and losing out on $400 or so... ) will still let me have much of the versatility, the ability to augment the amp's sounds with those from the POD.

Another thing: must be a combo. Portability more than anything. I ain't playing huge clubs here.

I've played through the JSX at the GC and I like what I hear. I've yet to play it with MY guitars, but I picked out the closest I could find at the store. On the flip side, I love the quality of Carvin parts/gear and I've no doubt I'll enjoy the V3.

I wanted to hear from people with experience with the amps listed, or those who had other amps in mind that would fulfill my main requirements: 3+ channels, tube, combo, versatile distortion/clean sounds, cheaper than $1200.

Actually, I just checked the Laney website, and they have a few 3-channel combos. I'll put them on the list to look at, at least.

This will be my first REAL amp that wasn't a gift or second-hand, and first tube amp, so I'd appreciate all the info you guys can dish out.

[borge]

play as many tube amps as you can before deciding, preferably at stage volume.

it looks like your deciding more on features than tone.

i wanted a multi channeled 100w complex beast like you till i played a few and realised they can do a few things reasonably but nothing really well IMO.

it wasnt till became lucky enough to AB classic benchmark amps (ac30, twin, 2203, bassman) against *do it all* amps(XXX, rectifiers, DSL) that i realised how much tone was compromised with increasing complexity.

of course YMMV

[Mattia]

I'm sorta with Borge on this one, although my Rivera (second hand TBR rackmount) is very, very versatile; one channel's 'fendery', one channel's 'marshally', to oversimplify things, and neither suffers in the tone department. It's a picky/finicky amp to adjust, what with all the interactive controls and various switches, but it sounds very, very, very good. Heavy crunch to lovely and clean, with more or less everything in between.

If I was to buy a new (small) amp to go with it, though, I'd likely still go with Rivera, but with one of the smaller, less complicated amps like the Chubster. Although I'll most likely end up building myself a Vox-style amp first :-)

Very seriously, for tubes, I'd say forget the three channel requirement per se, and go play a bunch of different tube amps and see what you like. If versatility really is top of the list, and you can't get there with an effects unit or a pedalboard, the Line6 may well remain the best bet. It's also kind of hard to advise on what the best amp for you is if we don't know what tones you're after; personally I barely use any effects, mostly limited to the reverb from the Lexicon, sometimes a hint of delay, and largely rely on the guitar, amp and fingers to get the sounds I want. Plenty of versatility to be had there, and I don't need 3 channels to do it.

[westhemann]

In my opinion the jsx is the best of the amps you listed.The Vetta is toneless,don't bother...A jsx with a good rackspace eq will get you where you want to go.

[RGman]

JSX has tone to die for.

[Simo]

Just a suggestion... if you already have a PodXT then you could always try an Atomic (www.atomicamps.com). I sold mine when I left my band last year but it's the best amp I've ever owned, along with my PodXT Live it sounded amazing.

[Xanthus]

Thanks for the responses, all!

@Borge: I'd love to rip on some of the amps, but you can only go so loud at GC, ya know? And yes, features are a big part of it. I've played the VettaII and like it for what it is: a modeling amp. I've played the JSX and do like the sounds I've gotten out of it. I'll try to do some A/B tests with what they've got at the store.

@Mattia: I've never really looked into Rivera, maybe I should. As far as my tones go, for clean I either use a real chimey The-Edge-esque clean or a round jazz tone, nothing other than those two. I play mostly progressive/symphonic metal, so I use distortion types from Vai/Satch to Metallica to SymX/DT to Nightwish/Sonata. This is why I would really prefer an amp with 2 distortion channels. Another reason the V3 beats out the JSX in my book is that neither of the distortion channels are "lead" channels, i.e. you can set them up the exact same way and they'll sound the same. The JSX has a Crunch and Lead channel.

As far as effects, I use reverb sparingly, mostly sticking to chorus or phaser for thick rhythms and add some delay and boost for leads. But there's always that part of me who loves the more atmospheric, experimental music too, and keeping the range of effects from the POD is nice.

@Wes/Mattia: That was the plan really, to use the POD for EQ and effects to get me where I want.

@Simo: I should've clarified. I have the XT Live, so an Atomic would be less than ideal for my setup, seeing as the POD is meant to go inside the unit. A guy from Berklee I played with was using a PODxt into a VHT power amp and Mesa 212, and it did sound really good, which is what I see the Atomic guys taking and just simplifying. Also, the Atomic setup isn't something I could try without buying first, which is too bad.

I'm glad to hear people putting their chips on the JSX, but with the amount of Carvin fans out here, I'd have expected to hear someone defending the V3 I'm leaning more towards it than the JSX, personally, and I really wish that I could A/B them. I'll definitely take all your advice in mind next time I make it to GC, though.

[Dean]

I know your looking for something around $1200.00 dollars, so mine is just a thought.Most of the tube amps they are putting out today are not the quailty of the ones from the early days.Tubes are not made as well, and so forth.If you could manage twenty five or three thousand,I have a guy that can build you whatever you want ,old school style.Not only would you get what you want,but it will make you play better.For the money they are under priced,thats how good they are.Anyway here is a link to his site. http://www.siegmundguitars.com/ Good luck on your journey,hope you find what you are looking for.

Just had another thought.....we have gone back to the future.....your not upgrading ,your down grading back to tube amps...got us a war and black sunday all over again....just like the fiftys.Nothing like the good old days.LOL

[westhemann]

Do not use the pod for effects or eq..You wil lose all of the benefits of the jsx...

I had a jsx for about 2 weeks(ended up trading up to an Engl)...for the price,the jsx is top of the line...yes,the tubes included with it are not the best,but after a year or so,you go to www.tubestore.com,and buy better tubes(less microphonic),and you are set...tubes are cheap,comparitively speaking.Brand of tubes is no reason to buy or to pass on an amp...I will be retubing my Engl soon.

[Xanthus]

I don't see how using the POD as an effects unit will "ruin" the amp tone. Tons of people use the PODs just for effects. I'm talking about turning off the amp/cab/mic sims.

I guess I'm just confused about what you mean. All of the Line 6 models use the same sounds, so the POD is just a big multieffects unit. I don't see how that's any worse than getting a G-Major or Rocktron or something similar.

[borge]

to me (and wes, it seems), something about ADA conversion removes *something* from a signal, especially in an all tube signal.

dont take too much influence from a low volume tryout at GC, some amps can sound great by themselves then rubbish in a band context and vice versa,

same with low vol > high vol.

[Xanthus]

Well, it's all I've got, aside from my old Boss distortion (can't remember which one) and the NS-2. It's not like I can't take the POD out of the effects loop and restore the tube amp to its full glory, either

But until I find something more analog that'll give me the same versatility for the same price.....

On the topic of the JSX/V3 dispute, what do people think about the different voicing switches on the V3? I think the ability to tweak the EQ ranges is cool. I've played with the vintage/modern/tweed switches on other amps, and I don't hear a whole TON of difference. I can hear it, just not a significant difference. Maybe the amp needs to be cranked more? Who knows. Still, the options are there, as well as the having the Mid/Deep/Bright knobs... It's definitely appealing. The JSX, by comparison, has a Fat switch for channels 2 and 3, and only a master presence knob.

The Laney TT100 Combo is appealing too. 3 channels, not as many features as the V3, but I've never heard a bad thing about Laney amps. Unfortunately, even the 112 combo alone is pushing the price range, and there isn't an opportunity for me to try them out in a store first.

[westhemann]

It is not about analog vs tube...the pod is a preamp,not an effects unit.Line 6 makes effects units that work with an amp and don't color the tone...if you can afford a jsx,you can afford another $200 for the effects unit...

There is no way to turn off the preamp part of the pod...it is not designed that way.You will not like "stacking"those two preamps..they will not sound good together.

[Xanthus]

Mkay, I see what you're saying. It's a floor pedal, so I just assume that it's an effects board all the time

So should I start another thread asking opinions about a good all-in-one effects unit?

[westhemann]

The X3 is an "effects pod"....all of the same sounds of the XT without being a preamp.

The great thing about the jsx is that it is designed to take effects well on the clean channel....

[Xanthus]

The X3 still has all those bazillion amp/cab models. Wouldn't that make it a preamp still? Or is there something inherent in just the Live models that I'm just not getting.

I've been looking at the TC G-Major. You can apparently stumble across Ebay for a decent price, probably what I'd get for selling my POD. I've had some firsthand listening experience with my buddy's G-Force, and I dig what I heard.

Only two negatives with that, though.

1. No distortion. Obvious, since this is a rack effects box.

1a. Those damage control pedals are pretty sweet...

2. Would need a MIDI pedal. Obvious, since this is a rack effects box.

On the plus side, with a MIDI pedal, I could do amp and effects switching at once. On the down side, that means more items to purchase. And the small detail that the JSX doesn't have MIDI switching.

+1 for the V3.

So, still thinking of other alternatives. Any other effects solutions would be appreciated.

[Xanthus]

Shameless bump

I'm pretty sold on the V3. I feel that, from what I've read and heard, it just seems more my type of amp than the JSX. And if I end up not liking it, I can return it within 10 days or whatever it is. Also, I have the option of getting G12T-75 speakers in it. Much of the negative press on the V3 I've read comes from the selection of V30 speakers, so that's a lucky break as well. They're also $100 cheaper.

As far as effects go, I'm looking at either the TC M350 or G-Sharp. Both have 30 effects (15 reverbs is really too many for me, but what can you do?).

M350: 6 delays (triplet delay!), 5 seconds of delay time, 2 compressions, de-esser, $$cheaper

G-Sharp: 7 delays...

Both boxes have the same phaser and chorus effects, while the G-Force has two tremolos and a vibrato, neither of which I really use. I'm leaning heavily towards the M350, which I can definitely afford with the sale of my POD. The extra money will probably go into offsetting the cost difference between the JSX and V3.

There's an elated and distinctly childish feeling one gets when looking forward to making a big gear purchase

::EDIT::

As for what I'll do for a dist/boost box, I'll probably hold out until I really need one. The gain from the V3 sounds very nice, and with a boost switch, I probably won't need one. Hooray for only needing a Tuner pedal!

::EDIT 2::

I read through both manuals, for the M350 and G-Sharp. It seems that you can only use one effect per time, then reverb. This is wholly unacceptable It seems the search for multieffects shall go on.

[Xanthus]

Just a quick update:

Bought a V3 212 yesterday for $850. I'm going to try out the POD in the effects loop, and see how that sounds. If it sounds like crap I'll sell it and get a G-Major.

Oh, how I wish you could edit the G-Major from your computer like the POD, though.....

[Ryan D]

HOLD UPPPP

You should try out a Line 6 Spider Valve half-stack.

It's got Bogner design and Line 6 modeling - it's got the warmth and depth of tube sound with the unlimited versatility of the Line 6 modeling we've all come to...(hate, but the Spider Valve is apparently a tone monster).

Find a store that has it (they make it in combo amp styles too, but apparently they don't sound as good because they're open-back, but still, they're supposed to be excellent) and try it out. Everybody who I know that has used one is saving up for one.

[Setain]

Bought a V3 212 yesterday for $850.

Probably a stupid question, but where did you find a V3 212 for $850?

[Xanthus]

@ Ryan: It's a bit too late for that, my friend The Paypal payment clears tomorrow (does anyone know why they have such a rediculously long holding time for funds from bank > paypal??? Drives me nuts). I HAVE tooled around with the Valve at the GC in boston. Honestly, I didn't find it all that striking. It felt and sounded like I was playing a Spider/POD through a power amp. Or the HD147 amp they put out. I actually felt the Vetta II sounded much better. The way the two amps play against each other is so much fun! I'll give everyone a full write-up of it when it gets here and I have enough time to play around with it. But with work/school/essays/finals let's not give a set date on that one, hahaha.

As an aside, the V3 has a closed back. I don't know if this is a mod or what, but it's definitely changeable if need be.

@ Setain: Ebay, where else? I paid $45 for shipping, so grand total of $895, but find me a 212 for cheaper

Craigslist is another good option, if you're lucky. I just checked, and there's a legacy 'round my area for $550.

[Xanthus]

quick update: the amp arrived (upside-down...... @!*%&$ UPS) today. I played with it for about a half hour or so. Planning a write-up after this weekend, with any luck.

In other news, I now need a good instrument mic for under $150. I actually found the Sennheiser e609. I'm surprised Senn makes equipment in my price range at all, hahaha. Other pics are the SM57 (classic, duh) and Audix I-5. I dig the Audix OM series a lot, but I've never tried one of their instrument mics.

Anyone with opinions is free to chime in

[MiKro]

I hope you are pleased with your purchase,

Funny though that Carvin has just rereleased the old x100b tube amp. I still have one from 1980 sold two others best dang amp I ever owned. The best cleans, I've ever heard, and will stomp any Marshall amp built on any other aspect as well!!! Just my opinion, but if you ever get a chance play one, TRY IT, YOU WILL LIKE IT!!

Mikey likes it!!!!

MK

Edited April 17, 2008 by MiKro

[joshvegas]

SM57s are great SM58s also work pretty damn well. I use AKG C1000s alot mainly because it's all i've got and they handle any volume your ears are likely to stand and they are great for acoustic instrument aswell as they are condenser mic's. I'm not sure what 150 dollars buys you in the US but if your volume doesn't go hugely high I really think the audio technika 4033 is a brilliant mic to have lying around for the money especially as it will do a pretty competent job on vocals! I'm wary of cheap microphne companies generally not to say they aren't any good but I'd rather a buy a named brand even if I have to buy second hand to afford it!

EDIT maybe not a 4033 if you are talking about live micing!

Edited April 18, 2008 by joshvegas

[mikhailgtrski]

In other news, I now need a good instrument mic for under $150. I actually found the Sennheiser e609.

I have its big brother, the e906. Found it on eBay for about $140, new but opened package. Excellent for micing speaker cabs, has less presence peak than (and is a nice complement to) an SM57.