Need Your Opinions On Inexpensive Guitars

[rrobbone]

Hello all,

I have a home recording studio which I have mainly used to produce electronic music and I've decided to produce an album of heavy rock music for internet distribution. I have a cheap Washburn I picked up for $60 just to use on random electronic tracks when needed in the past, but it does not quite have the versatility I'm used to with my DAW and all of it's software patches and options. So it seems I'll need some new gear.

Ideally, I'd like to have a Les Paul, a Tele, a Strat, a JEM, and a baritone guitar to get all of the tones I'd like to play with.

I can almost hear all of you saying, "Yeah, I'd like all those guitars too, buddy!"

But stay with me here...

A little quick and dirty math suggests that even if I bought midrange models, I'd spend about $5,000, give or take. I could build a second DAW studio for that kinda money, and seeing as I now have a two year old girl, I'll probably never see that much money sitting in one spot ever again.

This limits my options.

So I started researching cheaper instruments, and I'm talking dirt cheap. Brands like SX, Douglas, Agile (from rondomusic.com), Xaviere (from Guitarfetish.com), Axl, Cort, and others.

In my research, the models from Rondo Music and Guitarfetish.com got excellent reviews across almost all of their models. These models consist of copies and one-offs of every popular guitar imaginable.

I couldn't resist: I bought a Tele copy with a maple neck from rondomusic.com and I'm waiting for it to get to me. It cost $109. With shipping, it was $126 to get it to my door. If the guitar completes an actual electrical circuit when it gets to me, I'll be happy. If it is nice to play and has a Tele-like tone, I'll be ecstatic.

Now, going by the old adage: you get out what you put in, I figure that even if the guitar is crap, the parts alone are worth the cost and I can always customize it later (and probably will). I can perform my own setup as well so that won't add to the potential cost.

None of the guitars on that site cost more that $650 including some double necks, and some even come equipped with EMG 81/85 pickups. If I bought all of the guitars I want from them, it would cost about $2100. If I changed pickups and tuners on all of them, that adds another $650 or so.

Sure beats $5000.

I know they wont sound quite the same as the real things, but it's not my intention for my recordings to sound like everyone else's. I might just find a new tonal quality I like from one of these cheap POS's.

It always comes down to the player, I know. Do you like this guitar? How does it sound to you? Preference is highly subjective, so I ask you:

Do you have one of these cheap knock-offs? Tell me your story about what it is, how you found it and your (mis)adventures getting it to sound like you expected (or not).

Should be fun.

Cheers.

Edited June 30, 2008 by rrobbone

[GregP]

I can't say I go in for knock-offs per se, but I like some of the models offered by alternative companies.

My first electric was a MIM Fender Strat, which got stolen. This I replaced with a tele-style Yamaha Pacifica. I much preferred the Pacifica to the Fender style teles. It had a faster neck, more 'upgraded' options (ie. 'binding' and a burst) than Fenders/Squiers of the same price. It was a no-brainer.

At some point in time I was shopping for a Les Paul knock-off. What I ended up with instead was a Cort "Pagelli" signature model. sure, it has veneer for its flame finish, but the wood isn't plywood. The original Mighty Mite pickups were actually great, and though I replaced them with a JB/Jazz combo, I really wish I hadn't. The Mighty Mite neck pickup isn't "better" than the Jazz (which is a legend), but it had a sound that I actually preferred. But I'm not going to swap them back; part of the upgrade was replacing standard nickel covers with no-polepiece nickel covers. The Jazz is, after all, still a legend.

The Cort is excellent in all respects. Playability, setup, electronics... everything was top-notch. At the end of the day, I was actually happier that it didn't look exactly like a Les Paul. If you Google it, it's actually a sort of weird looking thing but I love it.

Similar story, so I'll cut it short: wanted another LP-ish guitar with P-90s. Got a Godin LG-90, which (at the time at least) came with genuine Duncan (not Designed by Duncan) P-90s. What an awesome guitar. Hated the way it looked at first, but as with the Cort, now I just love it. It has a great substantial neck and overall feel to it. I couldn't have asked for a better P-90 machine. No carved top; just a solid hunk of mahogany with a mahogany neck. Truly a workhorse.

So, the sum it up: I don't necessarily go in for the cheapest of knock-offs, but I think spending less than the "major names" and deciding to go for something that's not visually identical is the way to fly. I'm totally sold on mid-priced guitars for my needs. If I was rich, I'd still be going for the real things in a lot of cases, but not all. I'd get a real 335 if I could, but again there are tonnes of great semi-hollow guitars out there, like those by Ibanez and Godin.

Greg

[Ben]

Have you considered a Line6 Variax?

[ToneMonkey]

My thoughts exactly

[Prostheta]

+1 on the Variax for versatility. Same as the Line6 computer recording gear like the TonePort UX2 and the rackmount Pod X3 Pro (which I aim to buy for my DAW in a few weeks). Cheap Variax, TonePort UX2 gets my vote as you'll pay less than £500 for the lot (USD $1000). Even better, a Variax and a Pod X3 Pro as they have a direct Variax input.

Edited June 30, 2008 by Prostheta

[Mickguard]

Have you considered a Line6 Variax?

Well, sure, that might help him out, but that's not what he's asking.

He wants to know if it's okay for him to buy a bunch of cheapo knockoff guitars instead of shelling out the big bucks to get the real deal.

And my answer to that is, since you're only planning to work in the studio, than sure, there's no reason at all to go broke on this project. And I really can't believe you need that many guitars. You say it's a metal thing -- so get yourself a metal-oriented guitar. Regardless, most of the metal I've heard (not much, admittedly, I hate the stuff) is so effects-driven, it hardly matters what guitar they're using.

And that goes for most music...very few people will be able to pinpoint the exact guitar they're hearing (barring a telecaster, maybe). Considering all the effects, amps, even picks involved in producing the sound. And the EQ and mastering software available.

Now, if you're going onstage, that's a whole other story. You're putting on a show --and no one (i.e., other musicians, the rest of the audience really doesn't care about this part of it) is going to take your show seriously if you show up playing one of those cheapo guitars. Much as I'm not into the brand thing in the rest of my life. And I don't believe you should have to shell out thousands for a decent guitar either.

You don't mention what amp you're going to use -- that's equally as important as what guitar you choose.

[Daniel Sorbera]

You also might look into renting instruments, or borrowing some from people you know.

[rrobbone]

I agree. You can find something worthwhile without applying for a second mortgage. I looked up that Cort Pagelli Sig and fell in love. I like unique looks like that and am now looking for a dealer in my area. Mind telling me what you paid for it, Greg? I can't find an online seller who has a price posted for the Pagelli II. I'd just love to take a crack at refinishing it.

As for the dirt cheap Tele, the idea was to find out how workable a $109 guitar would be. If it's great, I'll keep it and be happy. If not, I'll change it and be happy. At least I'll know if I can trust that dealer again.

Actually, I have considered the Variax line of guitars. I went to the only place here in town who still carries them: Sam Ash, as all other stores have sold out their stock and will not be restocking them at present time. The salesman, Nick, who has been straight with me about equipment questions in the past, advised me to avoid the Variax at all costs. He then told me that they would not be carrying them anymore either due to reliablilty issues. They simply had to send too many busted guitars back to Line 6. He offered me a choice of either a 300 or a 500 at $12 over cost price, a price I later verified with a friend who works at a different Sam Ash.

Tempted, I went home to research the guitars and found almost nothing but complaints on the Line 6 forums about the durability of the Variax. Most were because the piezo pickups were damaged during a string change. A lot of issues were due to the electronics. Then there were the people (not many) who were having no problems and were fiercely defending their guitars. All users across the board were very dissatisfied with Line 6 cutomer service. And all lamented the great technology being ruined by living in such a crap guitar. Even so, I called Nick back to inquire about the cost of their service policy and he told me that they were no longer offering the extended warranty. So I passed on it.

As such, I have patiently been keeping an eye on the local classifieds for a good price on a used model. Depending on price, I may go that way in the future. I'll see one in a pawn shop eventually, I'm sure.

However, I am sold on the Line 6 POD X3 Live. Like I said, coming from an electronic music recording background I'm all about options and this bad boy has all I'd want.

Which leads me into what Mickguard asked, which amp to use? That's a good question, different amps bring different colors. That being said, I have a two year old child and I'm either tending to her or she's asleep. (Her mom and I work from home). So that renders playing through an amp loudly enough to activate any sort of overdrive impossible. I was thinking of recording straight from the POD, that has plenty of amp models. Remember, I'm not looking for total accuracy, just tones that are interesting (at least to me) and that fit into what I'm writing. I may come even across a few "happy accidents" that way.

I do want to record in a very heavy and aggressive style, but I think that by saying "metal," I might imply superfast pummeling beats accompanied by shredding so fast that mere mortal ears cannot deal with the sheer number of notes flying off of the fretboard. I actually am a big fan of more thoughtful melody and song structure in heavy and aggressive music. There's not enough of it being made for my tastes. So, I'm doing something about it. I believe that the more tonal options I have, the better.

You're right, though... I don't really need that many guitars.

I just want them.

The phrase "keep it simple, stupid" applies to music as well, so I won't be using as many effects as you might be used to hearing in metal. There is a time and a place for that, but I want what I play to be heard as plainly as possible, for better or worse. In producing electronic music I've learned that the space in a song is every bit as important as the sounds. Well planned silence can be just as effective in a song as a wall of harmonious noise.

And, I can always fix it in the mix.

I know a few tricks....

[GregP]

I believe the Pagelli was in the neighborhood of $500. For some reason the number $650 keeps popping up in my brain, but the other part of my brain keeps saying, "nah, it wasn't that much... don't be silly...". Pretty sure $500 is more accurate.

Regarding amp tones-- as mentioned, you'd be hard-pressed to go wrong with one of the UX models. I have a UX-2, which is pretty flexible and has some decent mic pre models as well (and supplies Phantom power). Can't really gig with it or bring it to a friend's place, but for recording or noodling at home, it's excellent.

[fryovanni]

My recommendation would be to buy a good playing guitar. You do not need a dozen guitars to be able to record several styles of music, but as you said you just want them. Most players starting out wouldn't know if a guitar plays well or not, an experienced player will be able to tell a difference. NOTE, I have not put a price tag on a "good" guitar because there are many decent mid level guitars out there. The cheap $100 toys may arrive in good shape, they most likely will function, but they will not stand the test of time(unless of course you hang them on a wall) if you play them regularly. There are many mid level guitars that can be had that have fair components, and are constructed well with no real fit or finish issues, and those will hold there own as players. Get one decent player you can rely on.

If you want a wall full of look alikes. Look for them second hand($100 goes a long way when you are buying used knock offs that people are dumping, and yes they dump them). You can have some fun collecting them. I actually used to buy old 60's imports for kicks because they are kinda unique(not players, but unique). I bought a couple early 80's Ibanez X series for very little. Those actually were fair players(which was a steal for what I payed for them). Collecting can be a lot of fun, especially if you make it a poor mans treasure hunt

The Pod is a very cool tool for a home studio wiz. When they first can out I tried one and I can tell you at the time I was blown away. The salesman had a real easy job with those things. He just said go try it and left me alone(not real common in most guitar shops). A LOT of bang for your buck there. A pod and a decent playing guitar will give you a HUGE amount of home recording flexability, and like you mentioned you can record quietly.

Have fun with your hobby. Home studios are the great

Rich

[Mickguard]

I often use a Tech 21 Tri AC (sansamp) for recording --it sounds awful through a PA, but pretty convincing recorded (lacks a bit of the low end balls you'd get from a tube amp, but software's available for adding that in again).

Build quality is kind of shoddy --the middle switch on mine gave out, but they're not real switches, so you can't just replace them with a new switch. One of these days I'll get around to complaining to Tech 21 about it. It's fine for using at home though, and not expensive.

[westhemann]

Am I the only one that thinks an Ibanez S model is going to cover just about every tone you are looking for?(aside from the baritone,and that is a tuning more than a guitar.)

I have horror stories of Rondo guitars,but NOBODY ever listens to them,they would rather listen to a hundred idiots who like them rather than one guy with experience of many,many instruments.

My advice aside from that is to look into the Carvin line...especially the california carved top....can't hardly beat the versatility there,bud.

Also,trust me when I say that the more guitars you buy,the less you like them...it's better to have just a couple......one trem and one fixed bridge.

[Prostheta]

I'll vouch to the point of stupidity about my Ibanez S. Awesome instrument.

[GregP]

Haven't a clue about Rondo, but Cort and Yamaha have made some good budget stuff.

Any dual-humbucker guitar with coil split isn't going to get you into tele or strat territory, though. I would agree that an entire houseful of guitars isn't likely going to let you really form a relationship with any particular ones, though.

[Willybomb]

I like modding up cheaper guitars personally. I've got three electrics (plus a bass and 2 acoustics) in the house:

Musicyo Kramer Striker Custom FR-424CM with PATB-2 and Full Shred pickups.

Casino Strat copy, holoflashed with Hotrails and Fasttrack2.

Mutt Lesocaster made from a spare generic strat body and a hohner neck. Hardtail, with Humbucker from Hell and Super Distortion pickups.

The Kramer I can't put down and cost me less than AU$500 all up, including shipping from the US. The Casino has a great neck and with the pickup upgrade sounds fantastic (I got both pickups for $60 inc shipping and paid $50 cash after a trade-in for the Casino). The Lesocaster is just a good all round guitar, great clean tones in the neck and a raunchy rock sound in the bridge.

no one (i.e., other musicians, the rest of the audience really doesn't care about this part of it) is going to take your show seriously if you show up playing one of those cheapo guitars

Personally, I'd rather have some guitars with personality that I've had some input into than a $1500+ off the shelf fender/ibanez/gibson and I couldn't give a rat's arse what the musos in the audience think. If you can play and the guitar allows you to do that, then that's what will impress...

Until it was stolen, my favorite guitar for about 13 years was an Aria Pro II SL strat that I had floyded with a Dimarzio Megadrive in the bridge. It was sanded back to the plywood and ran straight into a Marshall Valvestate(!) via a tuner pedal and crybaby, and I got nothing but compliments about the sound of that thing (rock type band).

Maybe I'm a cheapskate, but I just can't justify more than AUD$1k on a guitar in most cases and I also think that if I'm paying that much for a guitar it shoudn't really require a pickup change. Lately I've been thinking I'd like a really nice (expensive) guitar and not worry about a bunch of cheapos but the cheapos are more fun to play with. And in the case of my three, they're punching well above their weight in playability and sound.

I'd love to spring for a nice S series, but.. I've got some ideas for a project guitar in the works...

[Joobsauce]

I say blah to expensive guitars. Listen to this video of me playing "Texas Flood". This is a Stagg Jazzmaster, which is about 150 USD new (got it for 100 on a clearance), with a set of $50 "GFS 60's repro" pickups, and D'Addario .011 gauge strings.

This is all played through the house amp, which was a fender DRRI I believe, either that or a super reverb. Can't remember, it's been a year. Not too bad for at total of $170.

[GregP]

Yup, pretty good! Except did you miswire the replacement pickups? That's hella hum, even for single-coils.

[Rick500]

+1 on the advice to look at a Carvin CT.

I played several of them at the factory store, back to back, and of the three models (CT3, which is all mahogany; CT4, which is mahogany with a maple top; CT6, which is mahogany with a figured maple top) I preferred the sound of the CT3 and bought one with a TOM bridge. It's my favorite store-bought guitar to this day.

[rrobbone]

Thanks again to all for your advice.

Now let me provide at least a small bit of advice to you as I wait just one more day until my Tele copy arrives:

Pay the extra $12 for faster shipping!

Oh well, the wait is almost over. I will let you all know what my initial impressions are as soon as I have some.

I researched the guitars suggested by you guys: the Carvin looks great, but is simply out of my price range for a single guitar. I looked in all my usual places for a good used deals, but it seems Carvin's guitars haven't quite migrated as far as Texas yet. Either that, or their owners are so happy with them that they are unwilling to sell them. Either way, Carvin's a no go, nice as they may be.

The Ibanez S series was also mentioned. These retail for $400 to $1300 or so and I found a few selling in the neighborhood of $300 used on craigslist, so they are a definite possibility. I am especially intrigued by the redesigned trem systems on the better equipped models. It just looks as though it'll hold tune better. We'll see how they sound next time I go into a music store.

What I'll probably end up doing is as Willy and Joob suggest: Cruise pawn shops and local online classifieds and find deals to modify. The whole customization angle appeals to me anyway. Yes, I know you get what you pay for, but I'll learn to fix and mod my own guitars in the process instead of paying someone else to do it. I'll make mistakes I'm sure, but if I ruin a $109 Tele copy, so what? I'll buy another.

GregP: I can't find a Pagelli model anywhere. According to Cort's website, the still sell it as a version II. I will ask my favorite local tech/shop if he can get one for me. I think he carries Cort.

In any case, I welcome more comments and suggestions...

Thanks again...

[IWishICouldShred]

I've played 5 or 6 different guitars from Agile and SX (both Rondomusic brands) and I was actually really impressed with all of them. My next purchase (when I finish up 2 builds and one overhaul/refinish...) is going to be a Douglas semihollow from the same site.

What I am NOT impressed with is Xaviere. A friend of mine just got this disgusting "schoolbus yellow" semi-hollow tele. It looks and (more important) feels like something you'd find at Toys'R'Us. Really. Every surface on the guitar feels like plastic. Cheap wood, and the fretboard has about a mile-thick layer of lacquer on it (polished to a mirror-like finish, to distract you from all the imperfections in the workmanship) I couldn't stand playing it for long enough to try plugging it in and making it sound good.

[Prostheta]

Cruising the secondhand market is always a great way to pick up mid-range to top-range instruments at agreeable prices.

As for Ibanez' S series - ignore the low end. You'll appreciate the ergonomic shape, but the mid to high end models in the S series are worth the money especially if you snag a higher end model for a decent price lower than retail! I paid £550 (USD$1100?) for my S1540FM with a complete set of SD pickups installed. In fact, I have to give respect to the previous owner on the combination and choices also. My favourite favourite favourite favourite favourite axe. Ever.

[Sami Ghouri]

Cort guitars are VERY GOOD cheaper-than-ibanez instruments! Cort is basically Ibanez Korea.... all those korean ibbies are made in the cort factory... the one with seymour duncans costs less than $400 here in Dubai, so i'm guessing if you're in north America you should be able to get it for a cheaper price since that seems to be the case with every brand i could find here...

good luck!

[guitar101]

Haven't a clue about Rondo, but Cort and Yamaha have made some good budget stuff.

Any dual-humbucker guitar with coil split isn't going to get you into tele or strat territory, though. I would agree that an entire houseful of guitars isn't likely going to let you really form a relationship with any particular ones, though.

I've had good luck buying Yamahas off of E-bay. My favorite is the AEX-520, a semi hollowbody with mini humbuckers. It's about as plain a guitar as ypu can buy. Yamahas are well constructed. Although I've had a few problems with some of the switches. Their necks are nice and well finished. This particular guitar has a nice warm tone with no mud on the low notes and an excellent top end. Picked it up for about $300 dollars in excellent shape no scratches no fret wear. There is a lot out there if you are willing to try different brands.

[westhemann]

Prostheta is right on the money...The prestige seies is the way to go with the S...

But there is a black model available for about $700 new with Very good sound and playability...as good as the prestige,but cheaper because of the simplicity.

[Joobsauce]

Yup, pretty good! Except did you miswire the replacement pickups? That's hella hum, even for single-coils.

no no, the bar's wiring was JUNK! I kept getting the **** shocked out of me on the mic.... I finally gave up on it and sang a bit back and louder for this song.

Well, it was fine till we plugged in the other amp for the last guitarist, and that just screwed it ALL up.

I've realy never had a problem with hum anywhere else, even with more gain than that. I'm impressed with these pickups. Plus, I had my tech install the pickups, but the switch crapped out and I decided to learn how to install my own and learn to solder. Turned out well, I have a switch and it still sounds fine!