zyonsdream Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Well I’ve decided to put my curiosity to work. With the increased discussion on using junk wood as a viable substitute for well known and accepted lumber I’ve decided to make a guitar out of junk wood. I was going to use run of the mill pine until it was posted that Fender has used Pine for years. I noticed that ply wood had been really put down so I’m going to use good old fashioned plywood to build the guitar. I’m not going to used high quality Burch laminated plywood. I’m using the low grade home depot stuff that comes in big sheets that’s used in construction. That’s pretty much the bastard child of trees! I’m going to use standard maple and rosewood for the neck, just because plywood could not be used to make a neck. I’ve glued two ¾ pieces of plywood together to make the body. I’m going to hollow out the wings leaving a solid core and then I’ll use a thinner piece for a top. I’ll be using my Mutant Jazz body shape that’s semi hollow for the test. I’m going bare bones with a wrap around and a single humbucker. Most likely 25” scale but I’m not set on that. I might go short Gibson scale with it. When it’s done I’m going to give it to a 3rd party person that I know who runs a studio and I’m going to have them record some honest side by side examples with a guitar of much higher class with similar configuration so I can have an honest comparison. I know this has been done before and it will not squash any debate but I’d like to know if building with lesser materials can yield a high quality sounding guitar. I feel that most manufactures don’t use this type of wood simply due to the stigma and not due to the sound they can get from the guitar. I got started on it last night! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 ROCK ON!!!!! I was wondering if anyone was going to take up the unspoken gauntlet. I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing how this sounds. Gee, I wonder if he'll go with a natural finish or if he'll paint it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 I owned plenty of plywood guitars in the 80's including a Lotus Frankenstien EVH Clone, A Harmony Flying V, and Pink Heavy Metal Strat I had to paint Loch Ness Green for OBVIOUS Reasons... HM. and they were fine... They sounded just like the pickups I put in them... seymours fixed everything. In my opinion you need to build the neck out of something crappy and make it stable so you can get cred. What about a Plywood/Aluminum/Plywood laminate glued together with Epoxy? You can get nice pieces of aluminum at Home Depot and make a pretty rigid sandwich, plastic storage bag, little vacuum, little heat, and etc... Also you should add a Hardboard (Yes as in peg board with no holes) drop top like my JS30 King V has... And you might as well build some pickups. It is never to late to start experimenting. Have Fun! Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyonsdream Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 I owned plenty of plywood guitars in the 80's including a Lotus Frankenstien EVH Clone, A Harmony Flying V, and Pink Heavy Metal Strat I had to paint Loch Ness Green for OBVIOUS Reasons... HM. and they were fine... They sounded just like the pickups I put in them... seymours fixed everything. In my opinion you need to build the neck out of something crappy and make it stable so you can get cred. What about a Plywood/Aluminum/Plywood laminate glued together with Epoxy? You can get nice pieces of aluminum at Home Depot and make a pretty rigid sandwich, plastic storage bag, little vacuum, little heat, and etc... Also you should add a Hardboard (Yes as in peg board with no holes) drop top like my JS30 King V has... And you might as well build some pickups. It is never to late to start experimenting. Have Fun! Good luck. There are three schools of thought 1. The type of wood you use affects the overall tone of the guitar in the most significant way 2. The electronics (pickups) affect tone and sustain more than the wood itself 3. The type of wood isn’t too important but I won’t play a guitar out of lower priced wood just because it seems cheep. I believe that electronics play a bigger part in tone shaping than the actual materials that the body is made of. If you check some of the recent threads debating this; the common theme is that plywood bodies are used in beginner models and by lower quality companies for a reason. It’s obviously a cost cutting measure (more expensive guitars cut cost by using a laminate top instead of an actual top) but I’ve owned a few plywood bodies and I’ve noticed that they are not all bad. The ones I’ve owned have been primarily guitars to play metal. Metal usually doesn’t have a tone of midrange and is somewhat scooped so the average LP lover might not like the tone these guitars have had. I don’t think that tone was a result of the wood but more so by the electronics put into them. Building a crap neck and my own pickup would essentially give you a guitar that would measure my ability to build a guitar and make it sound good. Most of your standard plywood bodied guitars have a maple neck and a rosewood board because regular rock maple is cheap and Indian rosewood is reasonable compared to the alternatives. I’m going to use a middle of the road pickup that I get off of EBay or something. It wont be a major name brand pickup (to mirror what a smaller manufacturer would do on a mass produced guitar.) The pickups I build on my own are super distortion types and sound great. I want to prove to myself that middle of the road components and trash lumber can come out together to make a guitar that most anyone would think the tone was great (regardless if you like my shape or not.) My overall goal is to mirror the tone of a BB King Lucille. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyonsdream Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 ROCK ON!!!!! I was wondering if anyone was going to take up the unspoken gauntlet. I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing how this sounds. Gee, I wonder if he'll go with a natural finish or if he'll paint it? Actually, I was thinking about going natural with it. Clear filler with a clear coat just to show what it’s made of. Surely people will scoff at the fact it’s plywood and then they will have to eat crow when they play it. I might even leave any of the blue lettering on it that the manufacturer put on it to label it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWishICouldShred Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 You CAN build a plywood neck. If you laminate a few pieces together so that the plys show on the back of the neck, it should hold up. I know because I own one and it has stayed relatively straight. Plywood has less of a tendency to warp (sideways) than solid wood, and with this method of construction should have the strength to resist bending (front-back). Plus, if it gets ruined, it's all in the name of science. And not too big of a deal-- Steam off the fretboard and you're fine... you've lost a dollar or two worth of plywood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 I’m going to use standard maple and rosewood for the neck, just because plywood could not be used to make a neck. check out the martin stratabond necks - high quality plywood admittedly but definately plywood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 And I was just being silly. Do whatcha gotta do, brutha. When I get on a soapbox, I tend to drive the point right into the ground too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyonsdream Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 (edited) I’m going to use standard maple and rosewood for the neck, just because plywood could not be used to make a neck. check out the martin stratabond necks - high quality plywood admittedly but definately plywood I bought one of those and ended up taking it back. After about two weeks the neck went haywire on me and back bowed like crazy. The composit body didn't sound that great either. Very little projection. I didn't count but it was supposed to be 100 pieces. I never really thought about doing the neck with ply but I can see how it would work. If it ends up being crap I can always build a maple neck for it. Sounds like a plan! Edited July 9, 2008 by zyonsdream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 I'll add to this one (since I seem to have caused a bit of stir being the messenger on another thread) - shoot me your scale and just for fun - I'll build a plywood neck. In fact, I've got a ton of scrap tongue and groove curly maple that could be added on as a fretboard as well. I'll get pics up soon, one of the "different" finishes I'm doing right now is a Real Tree Camo bass body with duct tape on the headstock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Just thought I'd drop in an anecdote about plywood bodies. I owned an Epiphone P-bass copy for a while that was made from plywood. It was a cheap beginner's instrument that I picked up up for $50 used, never changed any hardware or electronics on it. It sounded fantastic and was completely bulletproof. I wish I had not sold it. Also, Kubicki basses had "plywood" necks made from many thin laminates. Most people that have owned a Kubicki have nothing but good things to say about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 I never really thought about doing the neck with ply but I can see how it would work. If it ends up being crap I can always build a maple neck for it. Sounds like a plan! ++++!1 Sweet... I think this will be awesome... I like school #2 + #3... __elitism__ is great. And since we all build our own guitars it is easy to use exotics. The thing about the martin neck plywood is that it is still hardwood right? I am dead serious about using Home depot grade pine plywood. Hell you could hang it on the wall if it sucks... A lot of the really old Japanese clones used to use maple plys laminated together. I think whatever you try it will be cool and I am glad to see something other than PRS Clones on this forum. I love innovation and experimentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 ...I am glad to see something other than PRS Clones on this forum. sniff sniff But I gotta start somewhere. (j/k) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyonsdream Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 The neck will be made out of the same stuff as the body. Cheap multi-ply plywood. I'll likely soak it in epoxy to make it a bit more rigid but we'll see. I'll stress test some of it raw to see how much it will flex once I have the neck blank glued up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernova9 Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 I feel that most manufactures don’t use this type of wood simply due to the stigma and not due to the sound they can get from the guitar. If manufacturers could use plywood, get a great sounding guitar (if you cover them up with solid colour paint not many people could tell without removing pickups etc) and DRASTICALLY reduce their costs and increase their profit margin, of course they wood. I'll take a bet I can, in a blind test with a construction grade plywood guitar and a solidbody using proper, instrument-grade lumber guitar, provided they have the same pickups, tell them apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 sniff sniff But I gotta start somewhere. (j/k) Never fear av I have seen you think outside the box... I didn't mention all the Les Paul and Strat copies... I myself am a cloner. The only thing I have on this forum are King V clones. The reasons to clone are in no set order (price, quality, customization). I just bought 2 early 80's Ibanez Destroyer 2s (DT-50, DT-155) and I will be cloning one (w/ high end wood, set neck, like the top of the lines) because I can't afford to buy a real DT-555. So I am the pot calling the kettle black. We can start a Plywood guitar thread sticky. We can all try to build the better plywood guitar and post the results!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 personally i think the worst issue with ply will be the grain going in different directions between the laminations, i reckon it will rob a lot of the longitudinal strength once cut to neck dimensions and it will make it very hard to work - not as much a problem for martin who i assume have all the grain going the same way and handy CNC machines to do most of the shaping. will it be strong enough with cheap ply? lets just say i wouldnt go for a wizard style neck but it probably could be made to work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 personally i think the worst issue with ply will be the grain going in different directions between the laminations, i reckon it will rob a lot of the longitudinal strength once cut to neck dimensions and it will make it very hard to work - not as much a problem for martin who i assume have all the grain going the same way and handy CNC machines to do most of the shaping. will it be strong enough with cheap ply? lets just say i wouldnt go for a wizard style neck but it probably could be made to work I was thinking the epoxy would be stronger than the plywood as a whole so saturating the piece would result in a composite neck. The other alternative is to vacuum a layer of fiberglass to the neck after it is shaped. However that defeats the purpose of building a plywood neck...I think. If he used 1/4" the grain orientation might be more controllable. Since the pieces would be thinner it would be easier to cut them with the grain running straight.??.?? I suggested some aluminum spars laminated in... but this is a crazy idea anyway, although this thread might become more important in the future as exotic woods become more pricey and scarce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyonsdream Posted July 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 I feel that most manufactures don’t use this type of wood simply due to the stigma and not due to the sound they can get from the guitar. If manufacturers could use plywood, get a great sounding guitar (if you cover them up with solid colour paint not many people could tell without removing pickups etc) and DRASTICALLY reduce their costs and increase their profit margin, of course they wood. I'll take a bet I can, in a blind test with a construction grade plywood guitar and a solidbody using proper, instrument-grade lumber guitar, provided they have the same pickups, tell them apart. It's about disclosure. The company would need to disclose the type of wood they are using. Every add you see about a guitar tells you what it's made from because traditionally they are made from XX and XX which is socially accepted from the music community and when it is different, the noses go in the air and the potential buyer says exactly what you said. I can tell it's plywood. Well, I've played plywood (with maple necks) and I didn't know until I took a look into the cavities. If you doubt that it's possible to get the same tone from a plywood guitar then I invite you to experiment right along with me and build one for yourself. It's going to be super cheap. Hell, I had the plywood in my shop already. Under $100.00 for the whole thing for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 I for one am joining in on this one. Let us not forget that at one point, some of the masters of their craft were playing with wooden cigar boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernova9 Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 It's about disclosure. The company would need to disclose the type of wood they are using. Every add you see about a guitar tells you what it's made from because traditionally they are made from XX and XX which is socially accepted from the music community and when it is different, the noses go in the air and the potential buyer says exactly what you said. I can tell it's plywood. Well, I've played plywood (with maple necks) and I didn't know until I took a look into the cavities. I've listened to plywood guitars, and more expensive guitars with the same pickups, and I can tell the difference. Sorry if you can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadovfor Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hey Zyon, while the plywood neck sounds like a lot of fun, I'd also like to see you run the original experiment ... a quality neck and pickups, but with a plywood body. That way you're isolating any tonal differences to the body and really testing some of the debate that has raged on this and other forums. But if you're going with a bolt on, perhaps you can do both? Record a sample with a 'quality' neck, and then reassemble it with the plywood version? I'll watch this one with interest ... and going by the number of responses you've accumulated in such a short time, so will a lot of others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 I had a reply, but after reading it I think it was too harsh and would be taken wrong. There are real issues with this grade of plywood and building instruments. Issues that relate to both stability and to workability (without even getting into a "tone" debate). I wouldn't build an instrument with this grade of plywood, and I take no issue with good quality laminated wood(plywood). I would hope these considerations are brought up honestly, for the sake of the new builder reading this thread who will see all these guys saying cool go for it, and assume it is reliable. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiKro Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 (edited) I had a reply, but after reading it I think it was too harsh and would be taken wrong. There are real issues with this grade of plywood and building instruments. Issues that relate to both stability and to workability (without even getting into a "tone" debate). I wouldn't build an instrument with this grade of plywood, and I take no issue with good quality laminated wood(plywood). I would hope these considerations are brought up honestly, for the sake of the new builder reading this thread who will see all these guys saying cool go for it, and assume it is reliable. RichWell, I hope you are using something better than C grade Ply. I mean, there is a LARGE difference between Finnish Birch Cabinet Grade 7 to 9 ply vs. C grade 3 ply with voids. so please let us know what you are using? Just for reference, as Rich said those that may want to go on the cheap need to know as they may get the wrong Info AS TO PLYWOOD as there are many grades. Just my .02 cents worth!! Mike Edited July 10, 2008 by MiKro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWishICouldShred Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 I've got a pair of builds going at the moment but once that's done, I'd probably be down to do some sort of crazy plytar. Plywood neck-thru with a pine top for carving practice. With all of the spare parts I've got laying around, I could probably do it for less than $50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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