avengers63 Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 A couple of weeks afo, I was paging through one of the guitar mags I subscribe to when I saw an ad for a new pickup from Seymour Duncan. I generally disagree with trying to combine too many features into one thing, but these P-Rails really intrigue me. I'd love to drop them into a high-end build, but at $130 (retail) each, I don't see it happening anytime soon. Has anyone had a chance to hear them yet? Trying to make an apple into an orange then into a pear like these profess to be able to do doesn't seem do-able to me. We all know that tapping a HB will only get you really close to a SC, but you'll never get all the way there. It seems a little too much to be able to promise a true HB, SC & P90 all in the same package. Yesterday, when I got home I found another mag waiting for me. I saw the ad for the new Schaller bridge and about soiled myself. I really want to check one out in person, but I know they won't hit the stores for another month or so. I'm scared to see what the price tag will look like, too. I'm sure it'll be well over $100. Innovative and cool-as-heck only goes so far with me at this point. I mean, I balk at $40 for a Gotoh hardtail when I can get one on eBay without the name brand for under $20 shipped. In any event, I'm itching to check out these new products. Maybe seeing/hearing them will justify the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 seen nothing but good reviews so far. dont think i will be trying them to soon though because i generally like my humbuckers to be humbuckers, single coils to be single coils and p-90's to be p-90's - although i am ok with humbucker sized p-90's basically if a pickup is trying to offer sounds like a humbucker, p-90 and single coil there has to be a compromise somewhere and thats generally been the case with designs so far. i dont really like rail pickups, or anything that takes it too far away from from the original design...i have nothing against completely new designs though having said that, i have heard that the p-rails is pretty close to the things it is trying to emulate, closer than previous hybrid designs. I dont want pretty close though, i want spot on!! the bridge looks interesting, we will see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoughtless 7 Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 There is a topic in the Electronic section about these. The creator posted in there and posted a video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 basically if a pickup is trying to offer sounds like a humbucker, p-90 and single coil there has to be a compromise somewhere ding, ding, ding! We have a winnner. Seymour Duncan has a video on their website, and it's worth watching. I've been trying to cram as many sounds into guitars as possible for about as long as I've been playing guitar, so the P-rails idea really appeals to me. Unfortunately, the compromise is something I can't live with (you may be able to, though, so I suggest watching the video). Each of the settings: strat/p90/humbucker have wildly different volume levels. It's an understandable and almost unavoidable problem (in fact, it's accurate to the originals), but it doesn't work for my uses. SD touts this as a feature in the video, so you will just have to watch it and see if you agree. A couple other comments: They nailed the p90 tone, but the strat sounds a little thin, and the humbucker seems dominated by the p90 sound. Keep in mind that I haven't heard them in person, so it may just be the recording, or it may be the side-by-side comparison with all the different tones at once, or it could even be a psychological predisposition to for me to hear what I see. In any case, I 'd love to get my hands on one and try it out, but I won't be spending the $130 anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 There is a topic in the Electronic section about these. The creator posted in there and posted a video. i seem to remember it but cant find the discussion, maybe i am just being particularly dense today but a link to the thread would help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoughtless 7 Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 There is a topic in the Electronic section about these. The creator posted in there and posted a video. i seem to remember it but cant find the discussion, maybe i am just being particularly dense today but a link to the thread would help Here you go my good man. Linky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_the_damned Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 I have one in the neck of a les paul. The pickup itself does contain a decent P90 sound, and a good HB sound and a passable single coil tone. BUT yup you saw that comming I bet, you can't get all three at the same time. To get the best single coil sound you need the pickup close to the strings, so close that the P90 sounds really bad. The P90 needs it quite a distance away which completely ruins the single coil tone. So you have to compromise. Personally I think the magenets for the blade pickup might be too weak in comparision to the two whacking great magenets I'm guessing are stuck either side of the P90 bobbin. I have mine set up so I get a good P90 sound and still have a good HB tone. I'm not to fussed about the single coil but it sounds ok to me, not great, not as good as the P90, but ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoughtless 7 Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 Anyone know if they come in 7 string flavour? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 The Bridge... I am not so sure of this, it would look great and no doubt work great on a custom instrument. As for the claims, these reasons do have some validity. It is what I love most about the khaler bridge. A solid mass securely bolted to the guitar does seem to produce wonderful tone and string definition and very effectively transfers vibrations into the instrument. The benefits the Khaler is that it can also be adjusted not only for intonation and height, but also string spread (side to side). Additionally, it is top loading so you don't have to string from below or the other adjustment mounting things that this bridge seems to require and works as a full floating tremolo with a cam system yet the bridge saddles remain fixed. The trem locks to a fixed bridge and requires only a small rout...but then there is a fixed version that requires no routing which would be an equivalent to this one. As a bonus, you get fine tuners as well, a choice of colors (chrome, black and gold) and even a bunch of spare parts can be bought so that you can change the tone (brass saddles on steel are standard and sound great on the tele). A good solid bridge does seem to have a dramatic effect on not only tone but on string definition and I am wondering if this doesn't contribute greatly to the telecaster sound by virtue of the big metal bridge/pickup mount on these guitars as much as anything. ............. The P-Rails have gotten a lot of press and forum exposure, but everything is a compromise... It is like splitting the coil in an HB...you will never get a real single coil sound out of it for the simple reason that no single coil has another just as powerful permanent magnet of the opposite pole mounted right next to it! You might imagine that if you got to fender single coils and mounted them next to each other like an HB that when only one is selected, you would get a true single coil sound...you wouldn't for the reason stated above. That doesn't mean that this would sound "bad"...in fact it may sound really good (it is essentially similar to my vintage "wide range HB" in many respects which sounds great)...but shunting or shorting a coil will not rid you of this permanent magnet affecting the magnetic field. So...with the P-rail idea, You have a rail pickup coil (never sounds convincing when you split a rail IMHO) and a p-90 coil (compromised by the presence of the rail's magnet no doubt) and two very different coils (so nothing like the matched set of a typical HB). I am sure they came up with a good sounding pickup with a bunch of options, but technically and structurally, they have to be a compromise to all of those devices they seek to emulate. .... What I always find a little disheartening is that with all the technology and companies specializing in this one component (pickups), all the work seems to be in emulating designs over 50 years old. Consider that Gibson, Fender, Gretsch, Rickenbacker, etc all were making guitars and designed the originals that became the standards for emulation around the same time, why is it that since the 50's~60's if not earlier...these emulators have not come up with anything incredibly new that others would want to "emulate"? Is it that consumers won't tolerate anything new that doesn't claim to sound like (insert mojo infused vintage flavour here) and they are only following market forces? I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with the P-rail...it may sound great...but technically it is aiming for emulation while structurally undermining it and so must be a compromise to all of the designs it is aiming to be like. I am just pointing to the fact that a designer of the PAF Humbucker, Seth Lover could go to fender and within a matter of months produce a pickup for fender that was also an HB but embodied a new take on the essential fender qualities with the Wide Range pickup design...as one instance. Or that a guy like Leo could himself tinker around and produce a number of masterpieces (strat/tele/p-bass/etc) in very short order that defined the sound. Rival companies in that era were able to come up with filtertrons and a host of interesting and classic sounds in response rather than emulation of these.... Oh dear...I have fallen into a "what has the world coming too rant"...I will be relegated back to the soapbox thread ... Still, relatively on topic... pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoughtless 7 Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 What I always find a little disheartening is that with all the technology and companies specializing in this one component (pickups), all the work seems to be in emulating designs over 50 years old. Consider that Gibson, Fender, Gretsch, Rickenbacker, etc all were making guitars and designed the originals that became the standards for emulation around the same time, why is it that since the 50's~60's if not earlier...these emulators have not come up with anything incredibly new that others would want to "emulate"? Is it that consumers won't tolerate anything new that doesn't claim to sound like (insert mojo infused vintage flavour here) and they are only following market forces? I dunno, most guitarists i know are stubborn and think anything slightly new and innovative is witch-craft. Maybe its just been the case for so long so people think it must be true? I'm all for new technology and so on. I'm a big fan of old designs built with newer, more reliable pats. Not always mind you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 I know...although, nothing much has changed as far as parts go...plastic bobbins, enamel wire, magnets...it is all the same materials and parts really...right down to the wax soaking on most of them! I personally like the newer "noiseless" single coils around. I have used both the SCn and noiseless hot (the vinatge were not so great) from fender and of course Kinman and Lawrence have rave reviews as well. There is a strong criticism of many of these new designs...some of it is a residue of early "stacked coil" designs that really were not good...most of it being that they don't sound quite as good as the real thing (a true single coil) but personally they can sound fantastic in their own way with similar qualities to the "originals". If not compared, people would rave about them. Interestingly, Kinman seems to have over come this and people rave about the difference as a feature, they accentuate all that is to love about the SC sound and the classic designs. They are claimed to sound different (an therefore by definition not the same) but this is seen as a virtue...which it probley is, while similar concepts are dismissed for the same "differences". On the other hand you can go way the other way like the Q-tuners that most likely go too far and try too hard (though they do look amazing)... It would be cool if SD or someone were to make a P-90 in an HB size and use some of the techniques of these newer "noiseless" pickups. I know they have a p-100 but this appears to be a fairly simple stack (has anyone tried those?) and still in the p-90 enclosure limiting the replacement HB option. pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAK Guitars Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 That bridge doesnt seem to me like anything thats gonna drastically change much. I mean its got some interesting features, but I think on that site they're blowing it up a little. I mean it a lot of the "innovations" arent too new. They're more like versions of other bridges brought together. Like individual bridges, graphtech saddles and low lying bridges arent exactly new ideas. It seems Schaller may be blowing a little smoke on this one. Then again if it took this Roland Hannes guy several years he probably has something going for it. I wont be sure until I try one though, it probably is a very good bridge. It just doesnt seem as ground-breaking as they've made it out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 That bridge doesnt seem to me like anything thats gonna drastically change much. I mean its got some interesting features, but I think on that site they're blowing it up a little. I mean it a lot of the "innovations" arent too new. I think you are right, but their points do have some validity...especially compared to tremolo pivot bridges and the like...of course if the bridge is securely bolted down to the guitar (and they have way over done that I think) it will loose less energy and transfer and interact more with the wood and body of the guitar...but the tele bridge is an example of just such a bridge...so hardly new. The same effect has had a big influence of the trend in string through bridges that also have similar qualities. It does kind of look cool though...comfy as well I bet. It might be a good choice for a custom guitar with this bridge specifically in mind, but it does not seem to be a direct replacement for anything particularly so the market will be considerably smaller and hence the price reflect that... I wonder what the actual cost will be...I bet it is a fair amount. Graph tech seem to mold their saddles...has anyone got any idea what that black stuff actually is. I suspect perhaps a graphite impregnated epoxy kind of stuff, in which case it should be considerably cheaper than a metal version, but maybe I am wrong. My old strat had graphtech saddles and I loved them, so don't get me wrong, I ain't knocking them. Anyway...kind of cool to see some different designs coming forward regardless... pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoughtless 7 Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 I personally like the newer "noiseless" single coils around. I have used both the SCn and noiseless hot (the vinatge were not so great) from fender and of course Kinman and Lawrence have rave reviews as well. There is a strong criticism of many of these new designs...some of it is a residue of early "stacked coil" designs that really were not good...most of it being that they don't sound quite as good as the real thing (a true single coil) but personally they can sound fantastic in their own way with similar qualities to the "originals". If not compared, people would rave about them. Interestingly, Kinman seems to have over come this and people rave about the difference as a feature, they accentuate all that is to love about the SC sound and the classic designs. They are claimed to sound different (an therefore by definition not the same) but this is seen as a virtue...which it probley is, while similar concepts are dismissed for the same "differences". Just like everything else in life. People will love one company for doing something and put it high in their regards, yet another company will come along with the same idea and concpet, but its just not "vintage". Human/Guitarist nature. It would be cool if SD or someone were to make a P-90 in an HB size and use some of the techniques of these newer "noiseless" pickups. I know they have a p-100 but this appears to be a fairly simple stack (has anyone tried those?) and still in the p-90 enclosure limiting the replacement HB option. I would just be pleased if someone released a P-90 for a 7 string guitar. I know they aren't exactly popular compared to 6 string, which is fine. But the fact there are only a handful of decent pickups for 7 sring guitarist in this day and age, i find a little disgraceful. It seems to me DiMarzio have the best selection, but they are just trying to copy 6 string designs. How about pushing out the boat a little and designing a whole new pickup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Ok...so since the subject is suitably titled...perhaps Sir Avenger won't mind it straying to "New Hardware and Pups" ideas in general...it is in the "general topics" section. I would just be pleased if someone released a P-90 for a 7 string guitar. I know they aren't exactly popular compared to 6 string, which is fine. But the fact there are only a handful of decent pickups for 7 sring guitarist in this day and age, i find a little disgraceful. It seems to me DiMarzio have the best selection, but they are just trying to copy 6 string designs. How about pushing out the boat a little and designing a whole new pickup? 7 string guitars seem to be fairly rare...I know we even see 8 strings here...even basses...but still rare. The only one I could lay my hands on would be a Jem7 in shops (and that is rare) as I don't know any players who have or even want one...but perhaps I don't get out enough! They also seem to appeal to a certain "type" of music further limiting their appeal and the market. Then you have to dissect that even further...how many of them would want a P-90 type pickup. Then of those, how many make or have built custom designed guitars suitable for the unique format of the P-90. Then you would have to break down those makers who would be willing to take a bet on a perhaps unknown device. Obviously, tooling up to make a 7 string pickup is a big ask for little return in most instances. A traditional P-90 would not be that difficult to make as a seven string really...although the cover would be impossible to find obviously. An attractive and solid unit though could be built by molding the end result in epoxy. But...you wouldn't really want to go to that extreme for a potential occasional sale even by a big company. An alternative would be replacement p-90 types in HB format and here there is far more potential as replacements into the typical HB equipped 7 string. It is of interest to me as there have been numerous people asking about 7 string sustainers for instance...another device that is entirely possible but no one makes. I have been for some time been "thinking" and developing my ideas for a potential product along those lines or at least making a suitable "kit" to make the project far more approachable. I actually came here while researching new pickup designs and ideas. In the course of this, I was "distracted" by the sustainer thing that I thought might last a few months and took up from something I tried naively about 10 years earlier. There has been a side project to perhaps get back to pickup making but there are so many people winding their own pickups that the world hardly needs another! However, it has resurfaced again in recent times as one obvious thing would be to combine the two devices (pickup/drivers) and a P-90-like pickup would be a good choice to do this with I suspect. As always...the cost in every aspect is very hard to come for such a small market...and then only a tiny portion of that market at that. ........ Another idea that I really wanted to do and put a fair amount of secret research, brainstorming and actual prototyping was a multi tuning bridge system. I was thinking about this yet again for another project. Again, very difficult to come at. The one I was working on would retrofit to a strat and the mechanism fit within the tremolo cavity. The idea was to use levers in the tremblock that moved with a ball bearing from above and the tension of the actual strings as the "spring". In practice...there were little leavers for each string behind the bridge that had allan bolt adjustable catches for a secondary tuning position. Pushing down on these could give access to two tensions (much like the D-tuner thing) so a multiple of different tunings (2 for each string) could be accessed easily...a bit like the Hipshot trilogy...but hidden within the guitar and easier to use. Again...the time to think of these things is hard enough...manufacturing them in prototype stage a big commitment...manufacturing them nigh impossible (completely ignoring the huge costs and risks of patenting something like this or being ripped off). ..... A lot of these ideas are possible and with a commitment...can be done. I am waiting on a clearance and final outcome on something I did back in december which was a completely new kind of way of doing this kind of thing as a collaborative effort. For now I can't speak of it...but there is no reason for people to collaborate more with these very custom things and it can be rewarding for all parties on a number of levels. For instance, a budding pickup designer (seem to be few of these around) or maker (seem to be too many of these) could collaborate and it may be worth while. The cost of name brand pickups is pretty high after all...but low cost and reasonable models are saturating the market. ... In general...the 7 string market is so small that I don't ever see it becoming big enough to support a lot of variety or even makers. I dare say that a boutique maker could be tempted if you were prepared to pay the cost of cusom building the thing from scratch. My own inclination is probably worse...I'd be looking at something fairly unique to avoid comparisons and do something a little different that all the boutique and company makers would have trouble replicating. The problem is...who'd buy them! just some thoughts... pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 Psw..I myself don't like the whole 7 or 8 string thing,because only Meshuggah has figured out a way to use them properly to make a different sort of music...but you should be aware that alot of jazz musicians like the 7 string guitar,so I think a p90 would suit them just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 Fair enough...I like charlie hunter for instance...but the market is way to small for production costs and the market within that for the p-90 design even smaller. I also wonder about the whole p-90 fetish. For sure a classic pickup and sound, but for the longest time was dismissed and often replaced. Eventually the tide will turn I suspect. I have been thinking of an HB design that combines the HB with a more p-90 like magnet structure...possibly a little more versatile but no doubt would still not sound entirely p-90 like. I imagine that a number of makers could build up a P-90 in a seven string version if this truely is a "must have". pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 Oh,man...I LOOOVE the sound of the p90...and I am metal through and through... The combination of mahogany and a p90 in the neck is just creamy,sweet goodness....I think the only reason peope don't really cotton to it is because they just dismiss it because it is muddy with clean tones.. I invite anyone to turn the gain way up metal-style and play a melodic lead through a p90...you will be a convert... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 Gutar Nutz P-rail Thread The above thread has some more information and opinions on the P-rail. Touches on some of the economics I was talking about. pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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