WezV Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 good work RAD! - anyone looking at making pups needs to see what you do to realise who involved even just the final word on 'potting' is - when they start to realise that eveery step is important in the same nuances then hopefully they will realise what a bargain you are right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 RAD - let me know when you're ready to try out some single coils with this setup Always cool to see this kind of work between people on the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 good work RAD! - anyone looking at making pups needs to see what you do to realise who involved even just the final word on 'potting' is - when they start to realise that eveery step is important in the same nuances then hopefully they will realise what a bargain you are right now I am not sure I mentioned in the posts but the coils are wax potted first. Epoxy is only for the casing. I also learned a valuable lesson about blades on this set. Hopefully this set hold up. I solved the issue so future sets are going to be fine. John knows I will fix them if anything happens... price you pay for owning prototypes RAD - let me know when you're ready to try out some single coils with this setup Always cool to see this kind of work between people on the forum. John has a set of the only set of single coil blades. I am having a hard time finding a source for the magnets to make the single coil blades. I think I have some ideas but they involve salvage work right now (buying old pickups and taking them apart). Custom magnet orders are expensive (minimum order is usually 100+ @ $4.00 ea). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 just what i like - i really do dislike epoxy potted coils - i just dont think they sound good, but wax followed by epoxy makes some sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 John has a set of the only set of single coil blades. And y'all should be really dang jealous. I get a mental hard-on every time I use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Thanks for that visual .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 just what i like - i really do dislike epoxy potted coils - i just dont think they sound good, but wax followed by epoxy makes some sense The idea was to make them repairable. IF you can get them out of the epoxy you should be able to free the bobbins... IF. I don't really like a solid coil takes the life out of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 I made a trip to Lowes this afternoon. I picked up some brass threaded inserts for the neck, some machine screws, and some aluminum bushings for the body. It's definitely going to be a bolt-on now. I wanted the neck inserts so I could really bear down on them and secure the neck in place since there's only about 2" of space to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Warning! OT (But I didn't start it ) I have heard that when you use a lot of 5-min it gets pretty hot so most guys use 30-min for this stuff. I use 30 minutes Polyurethane resin for casting both the "shell" and the core of my cast pickups, like these No problems with heat build up at all and the finished pickup is actually a bit lighter in weight (good or bad, I dunno) compared to using epoxy. Great to share the picks RAD. Sorry John, back to you now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 No, please..... Hijack away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Warning! OT (But I didn't start it ) I have heard that when you use a lot of 5-min it gets pretty hot so most guys use 30-min for this stuff. I use 30 minutes Polyurethane resin for casting both the "shell" and the core of my cast pickups, like these http://peternaglitschluthier.com/guitars/north%20star%20speedster/08.jpg No problems with heat build up at all and the finished pickup is actually a bit lighter in weight (good or bad, I dunno) compared to using epoxy. Great to share the picks RAD. Sorry John, back to you now... Those are awesome Peter! Just awesome. I wanted to start casting but was short on cash... that is why John got JazzMaster covers. I bought a cheap acrylic casting resin but I really didn't like it. I have talked to D. Schwab on the pickup makers forum and I think he is still using black 30-minute epoxy sometimes. PM me with what you used so we don't HiJack too much of this thread. I also have no clue what to use for molding yet. I guess soon I will invest in what I need. I could really shrink the design if I start casting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedishLuthier Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Those are awesome Peter! Just awesome. I wanted to start casting but was short on cash... that is why John got JazzMaster covers. I bought a cheap acrylic casting resin but I really didn't like it. I have talked to D. Schwab on the pickup makers forum and I think he is still using black 30-minute epoxy sometimes. PM me with what you used so we don't HiJack too much of this thread. I also have no clue what to use for molding yet. I guess soon I will invest in what I need. I could really shrink the design if I start casting. Thanks! PM sent, in short: Silicone rubber for mold and german brand poly urethane for casting. Anyone interested can PM me for details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Those are awesome Peter! Just awesome. I wanted to start casting but was short on cash... that is why John got JazzMaster covers. I bought a cheap acrylic casting resin but I really didn't like it. I have talked to D. Schwab on the pickup makers forum and I think he is still using black 30-minute epoxy sometimes. PM me with what you used so we don't HiJack too much of this thread. I also have no clue what to use for molding yet. I guess soon I will invest in what I need. I could really shrink the design if I start casting. Thanks! PM sent, in short: Silicone rubber for mold and german brand poly urethane for casting. Anyone interested can PM me for details. PM received! Thanks again Peter for the info. Me casting will benefit everyone who wants custom stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 I'm finally getting on to the assembly this weekend. Pics coming soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 I'm finally getting on to the assembly this weekend. Pics coming soon. YEAH! Get on with it already.... I need to know if those pups work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 This, my friends, is what a train wreck of a prototype looks like. I'm on my way out the door, so I'll post the reasons WHY it's a train wreck later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Ok.... I'll wait..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Seriously? And you think this is funny how? You better do some late night typing mister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 That's why you do prototypes.I had to place the strap buttons on my latest 3 times before I found the right spots,and it still isn't perfect..next one has a shorter scale and I have been searching out lighter tuners as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 OK, so why exactly is this thing such a mess? Essentially, it's mostly design issues, along with an ounce of execution. First off, as I've already mentioned, there's not enough of a shelf to have a proper bolt-on or set neck joint. Both can be easily fixed during round 2. Overall, with only 1" of body thickness, it'd be MUCH better served as a neck-through. Somehow, I ended up really missing the mark with the tenon pocket. I honestly don't know how I missed it this badly. I've NEVER been this off on a set-neck rout. It's not like I don't know what I'm doing or haven't done it before, so I really don't get it. In any event, here it is, gaps and all.... The original plan was to have a set neck with a long tenon. This wasn't an issue until I had to rout some material for the already shallow pickups. It wasn't much, but it was enough to make the long tenon virtually pointless. The tenon had to be shaved down to less than 1/4" to fit under the pups. So now I was left with 2 issues: a trough that's been routed through the center of the body, and no shelf for a proper bolt-on. The trough mainly messed with the pups. I was going to screw them into the tenon, but that became pointless. There was now a cavity under the pups with no wood for them to screw into. I also needed a small channel for the neck pup wire. I had already made a shallow rout under the p/g for the wire to go, which was now unnecessary. I ended up gluing shims into the trough so the pups had something to screw into. I had no confidence that traditional neck screws would work with this one due to 1) the lack of shelf, and 2) the overall thin-ness of everything. There's only 1/2" of material under the neck, and the heel of the neck is only 5/16". (The thin neck blank was a separate experiment that overall turned out OK.) I decided to go with threaded inserts and machine screws. I felt that with the limited space to work with - about 1 1/2" of shelf - these would five me the most security and bolting strength. Of course, these brought up issues of their own. The threaded brass inserts need 1/4" machine screws. The 1" long variety at Lowes have these HUGE heads on them. It'll look a bit silly, but so be it. I was concerned about the stability of the holes in the body, so I got some un-threaded bushings. It turns out I didn't need them, but I didn't discover thin until AFTER the holes had been drilled, bushings glued into place, excess length ground off, and the neck bolted on. yay! The heads of the screws needed to be counter-sunk into the body. The necessary placement put two of the holes right along the edge of the back bevel. Well THAT looks great! Overall, the machine screws don't look bad. I'd like them to be chromed, but you take what you can get at this point and look for better options later. But wait, there's more! The neck tenon was shaved down to go under the p/g. This wasn't a problem when it was being glued in. Now, however.... One of the brass inserts came all the way through the thinned-down part of the tenon. This interfered with the pickguard. I'm NOT going to grind it down at this point. There was enough screwed up with it, I said "frak it" and cut off part of the p/g. Yea, that looks great too! Now look at the fretboard in relation to the body. There are some really great bevels on the body. Unfortunately, with them going straight across the neck pocket, it messes with the options for pickguard shape and neck placement. For looks, I HAD to place the last fret even with the edge of the bevel. This 1) makes the last two frets inaccessible, and 2) pushes EVERYTHING really far into the body. It still has that Strat-like look & feel, but it's all too far back. There's not enough body behind the bridge. Now, having access to 22 frets isn't such a bad thing. BUT... If an electric has frets, you want to be able to get to them. It's not like on a non-cutaway acoustic where you just accept that everything past the 14th fret is for looks. The whole thing is the 2nd major design flaw, the first being the neck type. The pickguard itself was an adventure. The shape is almost there, but not quite. The front is pointy, but the back is more rounded. It just doesn't flow well. When I cut the indent where the neck was to butt-up against it, the end of the fretboard going over the p/g like on a Strat, I miss-measured by 1/4". This left a strip of the tenon showing. Yea, THAT looked great. I also accidentally drilled the countersink way too far by the bridge. And somehow, despite REALLY taking my time with the layout, the edges went over the bevels in more than one spot. The body isn't thick enough to handle anything resembling a proper selector switch. Everything I found - even the free-way switch from S/M - was too tall. This forced me to go with a 3-position mini-toggle. I'm really not liking this route, but it's where I am. The one thing I DID like a whole lot is the threaded insert/machine screw attachment. If a better looking screw can be found, I like this a LOT better than traditional neck screws. This also makes the thin neck blank a more viable option. The biggest drawback with the thin blank is lack of meat for the neck screw to bite into, especially when you consider the tapered end of the screw. This eliminates that 100%. So I'm still going to wire it all up and play it for a while. I mean, why go this far and stop? I've accepted that it's a prototype and I didn't knock it out of the park on my first swing. That doesn't mean it'll be un-playable or will sound bad. With the possible exception of the neck joint, the issues are largely aesthetic. 100% of the issues can be solved with some design tweaks. After all, this whole thing is an experiment that sprouted from a discussion about how thin you could viably make a body and what challenges and issues you would encounter. Overall, I'm going to declare the experiment a success. A huge pile of knowledge was gained throughout the process. I'm confident that when it's re-worked the next one will be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Oh, good! Now the wiring is all jacked up. It's probably just grounding out somewhere. The cavity is pretty shallow, so there's a lot of tight squeezes for the wiring to contact a ground. Don't worry RAD - your pups work fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Oh, good! Now the wiring is all jacked up. It's probably just grounding out somewhere. The cavity is pretty shallow, so there's a lot of tight squeezes for the wiring to contact a ground. Don't worry RAD - your pups work fine. Well at least you have all the pieces for number 2 (the neck through). Come to think of it you can probably use the winds from this one.... Also make a good video of the fire! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Come to think of it you can probably use the winds from this one.... I don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Come to think of it you can probably use the winds from this one.... I don't get it. Wings. Sorry. Wings.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted March 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 I for the wiring and alignment all sorted out this afternoon. As usual, RAD's pups are terrific. As for the guitar itself.... I can't really feel it hanging from my shoulder. It's only about 3-4 pounds. The neck feels like it's on a completely different plane than the body. It's obviously no different in comparison to the top than any other bolt-on, but it just feels different. That part is going to take some getting used to.T The upper horn feels odd against my body, but that really isn't a big surprise as most of my guitars don't even HAVE an upper horn, much less one as long as this. The length is necessary though, because it balances with the neck at the typical playing angle. Were the horn shorter, it probably would be really neck heavy. The neck joint is definitely NOT stable in the long term. I can flex the neck significantly sharp & flat when gripped near the body. I have to intentionally bend it though, so the short term playability is fine. This solidifies the need for it to be neck-through. Now I suppose y'all will want some pics..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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