#4 Has An F-hole

[ScottR]

Just to officially move on from neck work, I cut out the top.

The good news is the voids to not appear to be too deep. I should be able to get under them in the carve. The bad news is it looks like I may find more when I carve.

Almost playable.

SR

[demonx]

Thats one massively chunky neck profile... it's huge! Whow thick does that measure (including fretboard?)

It seems like I've been working on this neck forever. And like every neck I've built so far, I boogered up the fretboard while dressing the frets. So I had to go back and polish it all over again.

I'm a bit different to other builders in this reguard - I don't even try make my fingerboard look nice until after the guitar is painted. After it's radiused thats it until the end. I sand the inlays and wipe the glue off from when I glue/hammer the frets in, but that's it. I only radius at 80, 120 and 320. Past that I dont bother as I clean it up at the end.

After I paint theres always a little bit of paint that gets in under the tape, so anything before the paint stage is work on vein (using my build methods) - after it's painted, cut and polished etc etc, I then razor blade the timber between the frets (like other people razor blade their binding) - only takes a few minutes to do the whole board, gets rid of all the paint, dirt, scratches etc from the build and looks like fress planed wood. I just think of the razor blade as a miniature hand plane. Then I wax and it's ready to get assembled.

[ScottR]

Thats one massively chunky neck profile... it's huge! Whow thick does that measure (including fretboard?)

It seems like I've been working on this neck forever. And like every neck I've built so far, I boogered up the fretboard while dressing the frets. So I had to go back and polish it all over again.

I'm a bit different to other builders in this reguard - I don't even try make my fingerboard look nice until after the guitar is painted. After it's radiused thats it until the end. I sand the inlays and wipe the glue off from when I glue/hammer the frets in, but that's it. I only radius at 80, 120 and 320. Past that I dont bother as I clean it up at the end.

After I paint theres always a little bit of paint that gets in under the tape, so anything before the paint stage is work on vein (using my build methods) - after it's painted, cut and polished etc etc, I then razor blade the timber between the frets (like other people razor blade their binding) - only takes a few minutes to do the whole board, gets rid of all the paint, dirt, scratches etc from the build and looks like fress planed wood. I just think of the razor blade as a miniature hand plane. Then I wax and it's ready to get assembled.

I was going to say.....

actually it's not. It's .819", or 13/16th", or 21mm at the first side marker. It feels even thinner because I start the carve half up the side of the fretboard and remove a lot of wood from the sides of the neck. You can see the fretboard on both sides from the back. It is 5/8th" of neck, which gives me 1/4" under the truss rod and a 3/16th" board.

Then I compared that to my single cut and found it to be a little thinner, with a half inch of neck wood and a little thicker board.

This will lose a little more when I contour the neck to body join and blend everything in.

You seem to have boiled the build process down to the bare essentials required to get a high end result. I'm impressed with your work.

SR

[pauliemc]

Lookin realy good Scott. Your neck dims are prety close to my own standard dims.

I use 22.5mm @ the first fret & 25mm @ the body as standard. You can make that feel very small in the hand by making the radius larger on the treble side. kinda like a fender SRV Hotrod profile.

I do a few trapazoid necks that are 22-25mm, those feel tiny in your hand.

[ScottR]

Lookin realy good Scott. Your neck dims are prety close to my own standard dims.

I use 22.5mm @ the first fret & 25mm @ the body as standard. You can make that feel very small in the hand by making the radius larger on the treble side. kinda like a fender SRV Hotrod profile.

I do a few trapazoid necks that are 22-25mm, those feel tiny in your hand.

Thanks Paulie and thanks for the dims info. It would be interesting to know what dims all the other builders around here use and see how close or far apart we all are. As far as the offset profile, that's exactly what I do. I shape the neck and volute and body join to feel perfectly fit to my hand, taking a little here, leaving a little there until it's as comfortable as it can be. I have relatively small hands, so that usually feels good to anyone else that picks it up as well. And there's no reason a customer couldn't ge t a custom fit....if he wanted it bad enough.

SR

[ScottR]

I guess everybody else's neck dimensions are secret.

Time to dress the surfaces of the body and top. I don't have a thickness sander so I glue four sheets of sand paper to my flat surface. I start with 60 grit and mark the surface with pencil lines. When they disappear the surface is flat.

My plane makes a geat sanding block and surface flatness tester.

Time to locate the neck into the body.

Setting up a routing template out of MDF.

SR

[westhemann]

I guess everybody else's neck dimensions are secret.

I could not tell you mine.I just make mine similar in feel to the Japanese ESP C shape...then I slightly flatten it in the back to make it a hair thinner in the hand

[ScottR]

Neck set routed and dry lift tested.

It passed!

Then I clamped the top to the body and used the tenon rout as a guide for the neck pocket in the top. As long as the sides of the neck are square this works great. I changed to a bottom bearing pattern bit for this part.

SR

[ScottR]

I love my router.

Time to glue in the neck.

SR

[ScottR]

This is my set up to plane/ level the neck tenon to the body...and square the the neck end and fretboard up to 90 degrees to the body. it was 3 degrees off due to the neck tenon angle.

Now that's a long tenon neck.

Top located and screwed on in the pick up waste area. It's looking like a guitar finally.

SR

[ScottR]

I like separate wiring routes for each pick up. I cover them with scotch tape trimmed close to keep the glue out. i did not do this on my first guitar......and I invented a whole bunch of new curse words trying to get the pick up wires to the control cavity.

SR

[ScottR]

I am going to epoxy this top on just in case I cannot get the voids to not suck. I think I have a plan for the worst case scenario......but we'll have to go all the way to the end if there are bad problems to find out if it works. I do know that I can get the top off with heat if it is epoxied....because my earlier guitars were built in the direct Texas sun. I taped up the sides to make clean up easier.

T-88 is good stuff.

Once glued the center is secured with the screws.

I made cauls out of plywood this time to increase the cone of pressure from each clamp...and to avoid clamp marks on the body. They would be carved away any way...but this Spanish cedar is quite soft compared to what I'm used to.

SR

[ScottR]

These are for Brett.

This one's for me.

SR

[ScottR]

I guess everybody else's neck dimensions are secret.

I could not tell you mine.I just make mine similar in feel to the Japanese ESP C shape...then I slightly flatten it in the back to make it a hair thinner in the hand

I wouldn't either unless someones asked..and they did so I measured. I normally go till it feels good and then make it just a little thinner.

Now I will measure everytime and make them the same unless otherwise requested.

SR

[idmicheal]

That's a lot of clamps. It's beautiful

[Muzz]

Everything looks fantastic, also like the Geordie Brown Ale

[pauliemc]

.

Ha ha ha, this reminds me of a cock up I once made. Realy late at night, just finishing putting the tops on a run of 15 guitars. The last one of the night all glued up & ready for the top, BUT! I grab the template from the bench beside me & glue that on instead. Didnt even spot it till the next day

Still. this is lookin realy good. Im liking the Almost neck thru tennon approach

[ScottR]

.

Ha ha ha, this reminds me of a cock up I once made. Realy late at night, just finishing putting the tops on a run of 15 guitars. The last one of the night all glued up & ready for the top, BUT! I grab the template from the bench beside me & glue that on instead. Didnt even spot it till the next day

Still. this is lookin realy good. Im liking the Almost neck thru tennon approach

Holy crap Paulie! I bet you invented some new words....or at least gave some old ones a workout. Were you able to save it? Or did "don't eat that" get a new chew toy?

I'm a big fan of the long tenon. It feels very stable and solid and the bridge screws get into it so you have the old strings anchored into the smae piece of wood thing. That's all possibly only in my head voodoo, but it makes me feels better, so that's the way I make them.

SR

[RestorationAD]

I guess everybody else's neck dimensions are secret.

So my necks are really wide so there is plenty of room for shredding. A 6 string neck is usually 44.5mm at the nut and about 60mm at the 24th fret. I usually make them right around 19mm thick all the way to the 15th fret. I have done some 20mm and 21mm. I do three different profiles... a D a C and my personal favorite a V with a 25mm flat spot on the back.

These are for Brett.

Nice... I will take the NewCastle as well.

[pauliemc]

Holy crap Paulie! I bet you invented some new words....or at least gave some old ones a workout. Were you able to save it? Or did "don't eat that" get a new chew toy?

I'm a big fan of the long tenon. It feels very stable and solid and the bridge screws get into it so you have the old strings anchored into the smae piece of wood thing. That's all possibly only in my head voodoo, but it makes me feels better, so that's the way I make them.

SR

Yea. lots of flamboyant language. Not only did I have to plane the top off & glue the right one on, But I had to remake my template again. Wasnt the master template so not a total disaster, but still a total pain.

Your Voodoo with the "bolt it all to the same piece of timber" is the basic logic behind my Lotus builds, so im with you on this one

Hey RAD. My necks are 44mm at the nut. Just feels more comfortable that little wider doesnt it, more natural.

[RestorationAD]

Holy crap Paulie! I bet you invented some new words....or at least gave some old ones a workout. Were you able to save it? Or did "don't eat that" get a new chew toy?

I'm a big fan of the long tenon. It feels very stable and solid and the bridge screws get into it so you have the old strings anchored into the smae piece of wood thing. That's all possibly only in my head voodoo, but it makes me feels better, so that's the way I make them.

SR

Yea. lots of flamboyant language. Not only did I have to plane the top off & glue the right one on, But I had to remake my template again. Wasnt the master template so not a total disaster, but still a total pain.

Your Voodoo with the "bolt it all to the same piece of timber" is the basic logic behind my Lotus builds, so im with you on this one

Hey RAD. My necks are 44mm at the nut. Just feels more comfortable that little wider doesnt it, more natural.

Yes. I play with more of a classical technique so for me it is great. A lot of my customers are over 6' tall (not me) and it helps them with the extra space.

I call voodoo...

As for the long tenon voodoo... I think it is great when you trap it under a big top like SR is. In a thinner guitar they don't make sense as you cut almost all the way through them with the neck pickup.

Another point about long tenons is that you are putting a different type of wood in the middle of the body. Like a neck through if you use a hard wood like maple you significantly alter the tone of the guitar. For me it is not a desired effect. But when the body wood and the neck wood match it is less noticeable.

[ScottR]

I like the extra space as well. My last 3 (I'd say my necks, but that might lead someone to believe I was making dozens a year like you guys ) have been from 44 to 47mm at the nut.

Jatoba is somewhere around twice as hard as maple but it doesn't influence the tone the same direction as maple, it seems to add midtone. So the very hard long tenon may very well alter the tone in a positive direction. The ones I've made so far sound great to me, and everyone that has heard them says the same thing.

Of course, the description of "sounds great" can pretty much apply to nearly every guitar that is well made with quality hardware and played through a decent amp. It's not a very specific term. One of my favorite statements made on this forum was made by Orgmorg. He was discussing his use of native woods and atypical woods at that, and said he always gets asked how do those normally non guitar woods sound? He said they sound like guitars.

No doubt this very hard long tenon does alter the tone and it may very well be away from the tone one could be aiming for. I'm not that sophisticated. I just want it to "sound great". And there are a whole bunch of very different sounding guitars out there, that still fit that description.

RAD makes another very good point. With thin tops like he builds, the pickup routes would pretty much cut right through the long tenon. Then all you have is a short tenon and a couple of hard heavy blocks sandwiched inside your guitar. Ballast.

SR

[pauliemc]

OH CRAP !!!! we started a tone voodoo thing ! ha ha ha.

Screw it, its all mumbo jumbo anyway. I sent out 16 guitars on friday gone. 8 each of my Black lotus & Omega models.

All 8 of the lotus were black walnut with TV Jones pups, hard tail bridges & ebony boards. & all 8 sounded slightly different, one was even kinda nasal & squealed like a scalded cat. & those gitirs are usualy kinda warm & smooth.

same for the Omegas. All poplar with ash tops & laminate necks with floyds & evo pickups. all sounded slightly different.

I have 3 SRV on the go aswell, bodies ready to take finishes. hanging in the booth acclimating for a day & if you tap them - they all have different tap tones.

Best approach to wood tone is my old mans. some guy in the club he plays in was bitching about the banjo I built him because it has quilted maple in the resonator, bell brass in most of the hardware, a 5 piece laminate neck with a truss rod, Ebony in the tail piece & inlay/binding all over the thing. its my old man - kinda had to go all out building it you know.

This goon tels him its obviously a crap sounding banjo because he had played a mostly maple banjo a fews back & it sounded terrible (never having heard my old mans mind you)

So the old man replies "maby yours was a crap instrument, or maby you just cant play worth a fuk"

Tone voodoo can go suk it. stick in some of RAD's pups & give it to Joe Satriani & it will sound a-fookin-mazing

[demonx]

Bet you'll never glue down a template again! hahahaha

My necks are usually based around 19mm profile thickness at the first fret and around 20-21mm at the 12th and after. I just blend the heel in according to the body shape and feel not worrying about dimensions there. The width I always use a 42mm nut on standard scales and 53mm at the 12th fret.

Ona six string guitar I'll aim for a 5mm blard thickness, on a 7 string I aim for 6mm and on the 8 string I'm building at the moment I made that 7mm. Reason being for anyone who's never built more than a 6 is that when you radius, the board gets thinner at the edge. So if you made an 8 string at the same board thickness of a 6 thring, you wouldnt have enough wood at the edge to fit a side dot in!

The truss rods I use are 10mm at the deepest point and 1/4" wide. That leaves me with 4mm wood at my thinnest neck point.

No secrets here.

Cheers

[ScottR]

Tone voodoo can go suk it. stick in some of RAD's pups & give it to Joe Satriani & it will sound a-fookin-mazing

And there you go. It's amazing how many tonal variations there are, and how many different sounds we can achieve with all the variety of materials available to us. Take any one of them, put it in the hands a good player, close your eyes and just listen. If it's well built and the hardware and electronics are decent, almost all of them will sound "good". different certainly, but still good.

Your old man sounds like a cool old character Paulie. And holy crap did you just build 8 one piece Lotuses at the same time? How many hours a day are you putting in?

Thanks for the input DemonX. It sounds like all three of you have pretty similar neck constructions. Slight differences but pretty close. I share your philosophy for neck joins.

SR