How Hard Does Tru-Oil Get?

[Stolysmaster]

I've read here about how oil finishes are not very protective, but I've use Tung oil on furniture before and it seems to be fairly hard and somewhat protective. And I've also read here that Tru-Oil is even harder than Tung oil. I'm very used to Nitro, but I hate that it cracks when dinged.

[westhemann]

Tung oil is not very hard at all,and not really "protective" against dings and such."Tung Oil",which is a name used to describe many types of finishing products,varies wildly...depending on what it really is ...

real tung oil

http://www.amazon.com/The-Hope-Company-32TO12-Quart/dp/B000I1QA6E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354664415&sr=8-1&keywords=tung+oil

Something else

http://www.amazon.com/Formbys-30069-Gloss-Finish-8-Ounce/dp/B001BFZC2Y/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1354664415&sr=8-3&keywords=tung+oil

[westhemann]

From a product description of actual tung oil.Actually a very accurate description

The Tung Oil offered by Real Milk Paint is actually a pure tung oil meaning it comes without any additives or distillates. The tung oil offered by most other companies can be anything from a thinned down varnish to polymerized tung oil, and most have petroleum distillates added. Our pure Tung Oil will not build a gloss finish or heavy finish, but will penetrate deeply into the wood to enhance character and water resistance while creating a great wood finish. This makes our pure tung oil perfect for uses such as wood bowls, counter tops, outdoor furniture, decks, wood siding, wood flooring, concrete, brick and just about any porous surface that needs an environmentally friendly product. Pure Tung Oil comes from cold pressing of the seeds or nuts of the Tung tree. Tung trees mainly grow in the mountainous regions of China away from industrialization and pollution. Climate, soil and air quality are essential for high quality oil. Our 100% Pure Chinese Tung Oil or China wood oil is an all-natural finish manufactured by pressing the tung nut, no petroleum distillates or other additives - just Pure Tung Oil. All Pure Tung Oils are not the same. Some low priced marketers will package South American Tung Oil (dark, greenish in color) and sell it as the higher quality Chinese Tung Oils. Chinese Pure Tung Oil is available in 3 grades, we only offer the best available, Grade 1 yellow. A better quality Pure Chinese Tung Oil will offer superior color, faster drying and a long term elastic finish. Elasticity is an important factor as the oil must continue to flex with the expansion and contraction of the substrate on which it is applied.

I have used this tung oil.On my first guitar I built actually...IMO it's not a good finish for soft woods.Ironically the fake tung oil finishes are better in actual use

[westhemann]

But tru oil is semi-durable,to answer the original question.I don't find it to be hard enough either.It is not as hard as Nitro,by any means

[Stolysmaster]

But Nitro might as well not be hard either, because it cracks and dents so easily when banged. Nitro is a beautiful finish, which is why I've sprayed it on all my other guitars. However, I do not consider Nitro to be durable AT ALL! And God help you if you spill any kind of alcoholic drink on it!

[westhemann]

AFAIK alcohol does nothing to Nitro once it is cured.You are most likely thinking of shellac,which is always vulnerable to alcohol.

Nitro is much more durable than Tru Oil or tung oil..it can chip,but it is also used on a whole bunch of Gibsons,Fenders,and a bunch of other heirloom guitars(meaning guitars that will be passed down to your kids when you die)

Nitrocellulose lacquer was used as a finish on guitars and saxophones for most of the 20th century and is still used on some current applications. Manufactured by (among others) DuPont, the paint was also used on automobiles sharing the same color codes as many guitars including Fender and Gibson brands,^[15] although it fell out of favor for a number of reasons: pollution, and the way the lacquer yellows and cracks over time.

If you are looking for more durability than Nitro,Tru oil is not it...though it is an easy finish to repair.Polyurethane and polyester are very durable.I like conversion varnish,though it can be finicky to spray.

If you are looking for a wipe on finish with good durability,might I suggest Minwax Wipe On Poly?It comes in High Gloss,Low Gloss,and Satin I believe.I have used the Satin on some recent guitars and they turned out very well.I have poo-pooed it in the past,but when you don't want the trouble of spraying it really is very durable once fully cured

[westhemann]

From internet searching

Five days ago I submersed a low C key from a horn I personally lacquered with nitrocelulose lacquer about six months ago in denatured alcohol. I removed it this morning and there's no appreciable loss of finish. To further satisfy my curiosity I had a conversation with a neighbor, a retired chemist from DuPont Chemical's paint division. He told me that mineral spirits, denatured alchohol, turpentine or zylol are not strong enough solvents to break down lacquer. He did state that urethane based finishes would curdle and ball up from exposure to those types of solvents. I tend to believe his expertise. Someone please try stripping the lacquer from an old horn with denatured alcohol! It's hard enough to remove old lacquer with acetone and methylethylketone (MEK) and these are much more aggressive solvents!

[Stolysmaster]

From internet searching

Five days ago I submersed a low C key from a horn I personally lacquered with nitrocelulose lacquer about six months ago in denatured alcohol. I removed it this morning and there's no appreciable loss of finish. To further satisfy my curiosity I had a conversation with a neighbor, a retired chemist from DuPont Chemical's paint division. He told me that mineral spirits, denatured alchohol, turpentine or zylol are not strong enough solvents to break down lacquer. He did state that urethane based finishes would curdle and ball up from exposure to those types of solvents. I tend to believe his expertise. Someone please try stripping the lacquer from an old horn with denatured alcohol! It's hard enough to remove old lacquer with acetone and methylethylketone (MEK) and these are much more aggressive solvents!

Very interesting reading and info Westhemann. I have just assumed that alcohol that is drinkable would damage my Nitro finished guitars. Good to know that it won't! However, I HAVE severely damaged the Nitro finish on furniture with acetone - happens in a heartbeat!

Maybe I'll just stick with Nitro again when this one is finished. I was just looking for something a little easier than spraying lacquer fot the next one, with all the usual problems that can arise; orange peel to sand out, the occasional drip or two to fix, waiting for it to harden enough to polish, watching it crack when a tuner nut or pot nut is tightened too much, or when a pickup mounting ring screw is tightened to much, the fumes, etc. I'm just kind of tired of all that with Nitro.

But I must admit that I am NOT a patient man. I believe this is where many of my problems come into play! When I finish a guitar, I want to play it, Actually, I want to play it long before it's finished!

Edited December 5, 2012 by Stolysmaster

[pauliemc]

Rustins Plasticoat.

Sprays on, Brushes on, wipes on, sponges on, Iv even dipped bodies and necks in it.

Dries good enough to polish in 24 hours. Not that it always needs a polish. Hard wearing, solvent & alcohol resistant.

Cant realy go wrong if your stuck for cash & lack funky finishing equipment,

Or, A little more pricey, But Behlen wipe on urethane is excellent.

[maull]

Rustins Plasticoat.

Sprays on, Brushes on, wipes on, sponges on, Iv even dipped bodies and necks in it.

Dries good enough to polish in 24 hours. Not that it always needs a polish. Hard wearing, solvent & alcohol resistant.

Cant realy go wrong if your stuck for cash & lack funky finishing equipment,

Or, A little more pricey, But Behlen wipe on urethane is excellent.

I wish I could get my hands on some Rustins. They do not sell it in the U.S. and will not ship it overseas.

[westhemann]

When I finish a guitar, I want to play it, Actually, I want to play it long before it's finished!

There are options.Catalytic Varnish will fully cure in 24 hours and is flexible like Nitro but doesn't chip nearly as bad.It buffs up nicely

http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/us/eng/oem/products/sherwood_water_white_conversion_varnish/?referringCategory=markets/kitchen_cabinets/wood_finishes_topcoats/

That is what this is

Water white means clear by the way...as opposed to the yellow hue of nitro clear

Minwax wipe on poly...it is urethane and if you run it in well and leave it thin it will cure in 24 hours enough to assemble

That is what this is

Just try some stuff out...have fun with it

[Stolysmaster]

Rustins Plasticoat.

Sprays on, Brushes on, wipes on, sponges on, Iv even dipped bodies and necks in it.

Dries good enough to polish in 24 hours. Not that it always needs a polish. Hard wearing, solvent & alcohol resistant.

Cant realy go wrong if your stuck for cash & lack funky finishing equipment,

Or, A little more pricey, But Behlen wipe on urethane is excellent.

Is Rustins Plastic Coating available in the US? I have searched the web and cannot find it here.

[Stolysmaster]

Man, that Catalytic Varnish looks AMAZING. Really nice work Westhemann! I will check into it. Did you spray that on? If so, what size tip did you use on your gun?

[westhemann]

I sprayed it with Preval sprayers.There was a lot of sanding and buffing involved

[Stolysmaster]

I checked, and it looks like I'll have to buy a whole gallon of the Sherwood Water White Conversion Varnish because a Sherwin-Williams store guy told me it does not come in quarts. $65/Gallon; not a bad price, but WAY more than I would need. I'd surely have to experiment to see how thin of a finish I could get away with and still have enough on to sand and polish without any sand-throughs. Fully cured in 24 hours?! WOW!! I'm gonna see if I can find the spraying instructions to find out what size spraying tip they recommend.

I can't say enough about how great that finish looks in the pics Westhemann.

Are you using xylene as a reducer/thinner? Spraying two or three coats?

Edited December 6, 2012 by Stolysmaster

[maull]

I thought the product data sheets were on the link that Wes posted up above. That should have most of the info you are looking for.

[westhemann]

I checked, and it looks like I'll have to buy a whole gallon of the Sherwood Water White Conversion Varnish because a Sherwin-Williams store guy told me it does not come in quarts. $65/Gallon; not a bad price, but WAY more than I would need. I'd surely have to experiment to see how thin of a finish I could get away with and still have enough on to sand and polish without any sand-throughs. Fully cured in 24 hours?! WOW!! I'm gonna see if I can find the spraying instructions to find out what size spraying tip they recommend.

I can't say enough about how great that finish looks in the pics Westhemann.

Are you using xylene as a reducer/thinner? Spraying two or three coats?

I use xylene as a thinner,yes.15%.You also need the catalyst which is an extra $15..it needs to be a 3% mix

I went to Tractor supply company and bought some small and large horse syringes,and I used 100 cc of varnish to 3 cc of catalyst.then I add 15 cc of thinner and it's ready.I mix it in those preval jars and one of the 100 cc mixes is about 3 coats.

You wish it was only two or 3 coats.that guitar was more like 9 coats.If you spray your entire first three coats in about 1-2 hours(it needs to start to cure as you are spraying it to get sticky enough to not run,so you go slow),then you wait a day,scuff sand with 220,and repeat.

It has full burn in if you are spraying within a few hours,but when you wait a day,it bonds mechanically,so you need the sanding for the bond.You can't spray too much in one day,because it will sag.If you only want three coats then one day is enough,but I wanted it thicker on that guitar...so I spread it out over 3 days.

The most important thing is that your final 3 coats are thick enough so you don't sand or buff through it when you are getting rid of your imperfections.It is a finicky finish so you will have a run here and there most likely,but don't worry about that.When you get a run you just wait a few hours and gently sand it back to level.

It is not foolproof.It can be very infuriating if you don't know why it is doing what it is doing.When you first spray it seems very thin...like water...so you mist on the first little bit and wait about 5 minutes for it to start getting tacky.Once it starts to get tacky your coats can get thicker because the sticky curing bit will grab on to it.But you HAVE to pay attention and get to know when it is time to stop...

It's NOT an easy finish...but why I like it is that once it cures in 24 hours you can fix all imperfections with sandpaper and buffing and there aren't any witness lines

[Stolysmaster]

Great info and advice Westhemann,thanks. The guitar won't even be started until after the new year, so it will be awhile before it gets to that point. But I'm excited about using the SW WW CV as a finish.

[westhemann]

I am going to do some more experimenting with tung oil...It's been years since I messed with it and being winter I would need to finish guitars inside.

Anyway I bought some dark tung oil and citrus solvent from Real Milk Paint,and they say if you mix it 50/50 with the citrus solvent it will penetrate deeper and protect better.

Of course that is a common habit of mine...I try something and dislike it for years,then decide to go through it again and see if I was wrong the first time.I did it with the wipe on poly as well.

[MP63]

How about a water based stain with Formby's Tung Oil on top?

I read that Formby's is not real tung oil and that being a good thing.

It will be closer to Tru-Oil than tung oil.

Tru-Oil is not to be found in California anymore.

I ned to cover my lemon yellow guitar.

Thanks,

Mike

[killemall8]

I have used That sherwin williams finish for a couple years.

It is extremely finicky.

I tried mixing it the way wes did, with the syringes, but that was my problem all along. I used an entire gallon before i figured it out.

It kept spraying terrible and full of fisheyes, like it was contaminated.

I then mixed it by eye in a mixing cup instead, and it sprayed perfect. The syringes were melting and contaminating the mix.

I used it for about a year and a half after that, mixing it by eye and it worked perfectly fine. It wasnt even that demanding of exact mixes.

But man, that was the hardest year/ gallon of my finishing experiences. I eliminated every single factor that was causing the contamination, and of course it was the very last one.

I never had a problem with it sagging or anything like that. Teh weather is so dry and hot here, that when i would spray a coat, , 15 minutes later the previous was dry to teh touch and dust free.

I did eventually end up with a problem with it cracking though. I dont know if it was because of the old catylst or from too many coats. But it cracked from the inside out until it looked like a broken mirror.

It also didnt cure in 24 hours like wes' seemed to. I still had to wait 2 weeks for it to fully dry to where it wouldnt shrink back after buffing it.

Just some info about my experiences over a couple years with the stuff.

[mefgames]

I've had good luck with Truoil so far…...

[bob123]

wes here is the main man responsible of getting me AWAY from oil based finishes haha. That said, tru oil on a neck provides a GREAT feel, and seems to hold up. Easy to clean, apply, and take care of. I wouldn't consider equal to catalyzed varnishes in terms of protection an durability, but it "works" as intended. The problem will be the long term, "down the road" thing. Theres no way this oil finish will last like a poly finish will.

Just some food for thought.