Weekend Build

[KnightroExpress]

Hahaha I just got the quote notification and thought "I didn't say that!"

 

[2.5itim]

I don't have a whole lot of finishing experience but I've done two guitars so far with acrylic enamel paint and nitro lacquer to finish with, it has done well for me except when I tried to wipe on the nitro it pulled the color so I had to spray it. You can get acrylic enamel at any auto parts store, the duplicolor perfect match spray paint is acrylic enamel, or you can go to a local auto paint wholesaler and they can mix you any color you want. 

[sirspens]

The title for today's post shall be "This is Why I am an Architect: I draw things, other people build them."

But, first the few positive notes....

As I posted previously, I made a new neck route template. I used it to clean up the neck route which did a very nice job. Smooth as a baby's bottom. And level, too!

I also cleaned up my little uh-oh on the control cavity cover route. I made it a tad too deep, but I know what the problem is there, I just don't currently have the tools to do it right, and I am out of money for the moment.

I'm bondo-ing the chip-out in the second body...

And I cut out the headstock design for the second neck (not made by me). I like the design. Borrowing from the fatter Danelectro straight-six designs, but going even fatter.

And now for how I have probably ruined this body and will have to start over....

As I said, I made a new template for the neck cut. I did this so that the router would have something to sit on for the entire route and would remain level. I measured and measured and measured and measured. Everything was fine. Then I cleaned up the route and...

The stupid cavity is now too big. WOOD DIDN'T EVEN COME OFF FROM THE SIDES!

I couldn't find my feeler gauges, so I don't know precisely how too big it is. I'd say around 1/16" total, shared between the two sides. But, as you can see in the picture above, that is HUGE when it comes to fitting in snugly and being straight.

I don't know if that is recoverable. I figure between finishing the body and the neck, it will be reduced some if I let the finish in those spots, but... I don't know. I'm just kind of pissed off right now. Between dealing with assholes at work, a website I can't get finished and messing up this guitar... ugh. I mean, my travails are light, to be sure, it's just frustrating to put so much thought, planning and effort and then make one tiny mistake that I did everything I could think of to avoid...

Anyway... the guitar could be nice. I like the design. I want to play it... 

I have the second body. And honestly wood is fairly cheap. I can get back on track, but I am just so bad at doing things by hand. I have been practicing my hand carving to do a neck by hand. It is embarrassing. I have watched video after video and I can't even figure out how to draw a spokeshave without it being all dunka-dunka-dunka-dunka.

[KnightroExpress]

Don't get discouraged, it's all about practice, bud! The more you work, the more you'll learn. You're doing fine 

[sirspens]

1 hour ago, KnightroExpress said:

Don't get discouraged, it's all about practice, bud! The more you work, the more you'll learn. You're doing fine 

Thanks. I'm not discouraged. I'm just frustrated by many things. 

I have spent another evening practicing my rasp and spokepull skills. I'm making incremental progress. It's still embarrassing. My skills couldn't be used to make a neck. But my boards look less and less mangled! I can make a Buffy stake!

One day...

[Prostheta]

Once you have finish on the neck and body, that gap will reduce. A bolt-on doesn't acquire strength from the sidewalls. It's fine. No problem whatsoever. 

[Andyjr1515]

1 hour ago, Prostheta said:

Once you have finish on the neck and body, that gap will reduce. A bolt-on doesn't acquire strength from the sidewalls. It's fine. No problem whatsoever. 

+1 on this.  I've had a 'big name' new strat in the past with a gap this big!  It played great.  

If visually the gap offends your sensitivities, just glue some slivers of veneer along the two sides.  Even with a natural finish you'll never see them.  Quite often when I build bolt ons from parts bought from different places I have gaps like this and that's all I do.  And as @Prostheta says, it is purely aesthetic...makes no difference to the strength, tone and playability

[2.5itim]

10 hours ago, sirspens said:

Thanks. I'm not discouraged. I'm just frustrated by many things. 

I have spent another evening practicing my rasp and spokepull skills. I'm making incremental progress. It's still embarrassing. My skills couldn't be used to make a neck. But my boards look less and less mangled! I can make a Buffy stake!

One day...

You might try just doing it all with a rasp, that's what I did on my first neck. I carved it to the thickness and shape that I wanted at the 2nd and 12th fret and then "connected the dots" so to speak, once I got all of that roughed in I drew out where I wanted my heel and the thicker part (not sure what these are called) at the scarf joint and then connected those to the 2nd and 12th frets I had already carved. 

[ScottR]

Be good to know what caused the neck pocket to be oversized though. Does the neck if the template snugly? You say you didn't take anything from the sides? Did the neck fit against the sides before you re-routed the pocket? Is it the same neck you started with? Did you sand the sides of the neck?

Like Andy says you can shim the sides with veneer or ignore it and just bolt it on and play it. You can also glue some strips of body wood to the inside edges of the pocket and route it again to fit. Once you determine what happened.

SR

[sirspens]

The neck fit the template, to what extent I can figure (because it isn't open ended). When I placed the template over the previously cut neck pocket, it fit over it perfectly -- smooth to the touch.

The neck in the picture is a different neck than before, but just because it was the closest one to me at the time. I have two identical necks, except for the fretboard material. They both read exactly the same depths and widths (within 0.005") at each fret where I have measured. The other neck does the exact same thing.

There were two problems with the previous cut that I was trying to solve:
1) The bottom of the neck pocket (the seat?) wasn't completely flat. So I made this new template (laser cut from the same file with the same settings) that wrapped around the neck pocket so that the router would have a base to sit on for the entire route. 
2) On my initial cut, I used a 1/2" deep bearing bit. Which meant that it took several passes to make the cut. That bit seems to be just ever so smaller than the bearing on the bit, which caused the walls of the neck pocket to "stair step" down a bit.

Previously the neck fit tightly at the top.

This time around I got a 1" long bearing bit. A nice one so it wouldn't be wonky like the last time around. It smoothed out the sides (but did not touch the top level -- you can tell by the fact that the top level is still sanded, but everything below that first 3/8" or so is rougher from the router cut.

My guess, from before making the new cut, was worst case scenario I would end up with a hair's width wider cut. Just a worst case scenario. However, previously I had to use my body weight to shove the neck into the pocket, so a hair wider didn't really bother me.

But.... that's not what happened. Instead it went from being a nicely tight fit to having a huge gap. 

In the end, I don't know what happened. I'm pretty sure on how to not have it happen again. But I don't know what happened this time.

My question becomes, with that much gap, how do I make my drills from the back into the neck while keeping it aligned. I am going to have to come up with some kind of jig and get exact center lines down the back of the body and the back of the neck....

[KnightroExpress]

How thick was your template material? I've had a few thinner templates distort from the heat of the bit and bearing. 

[sirspens]

2 minutes ago, KnightroExpress said:

How thick was your template material? I've had a few thinner templates distort from the heat of the bit and bearing. 

3/8" Acrylic. The whole thing took less than a minute. And the bearing was in contact with the template for a small fraction of that time. So I don't think that was the cause.

My first thought after the neck not fitting was that I had possibly cut into the template. But I had not.

[KnightroExpress]

Yeah, I've found 3/8" to be a good size. I've also had issues with cheap double-sided tape or carpet tape having enough flexibility within its thickness to scoot around under pressure, then spring back to normal when released, which gave me some similar gaps. Also (and I'm sure you did, but I want to know), did you account for the laser kerf in your drawings? It might not seem like much, but it does make a difference.

[sirspens]

41 minutes ago, KnightroExpress said:

... did you account for the laser kerf in your drawings? It might not seem like much, but it does make a difference.

0.08". Measuring it was the first thing I did the first day I had access to the laser.

[2.5itim]

57 minutes ago, KnightroExpress said:

I've also had issues with cheap double-sided tape or carpet tape having enough flexibility within its thickness to scoot around under pressure, then spring back to normal when released, which gave me some similar gaps.

Because of this I have not and I don't think I plan to use double sided tape, I think that it would just cause problems for me from moving over under pressure. Because of this I think out my templates and make them extra long or wide whichever is needed to be able to clamp it to my part. 

Edited February 28, 2016 by 2.5itim

[sirspens]

And nothing can seem to go right.

Tried to see how the neck fits (holes already drilled from last time). But before the neck even tightened all the way down the StewMac screws snapped. The screws weren't even tight! (And, yes, before anyone asks, I pre-drilled holes and I even took them 1/8" deeper than needed, just to be safe.)

I... I think there is something wrong with me. haha

[sirspens]

14 minutes ago, 2.5itim said:

Because of this I have not and I don't think I plan to use double sided tape, I think that it would just cause problems for me from moving over under pressure. Because of this I think out my templates and make them extra long or wide whichever is needed to be able to clamp it to my part. 

Yeah. The more I think about it, the more double sided tape seems to be the only likely suspect...

[KnightroExpress]

3 hours ago, sirspens said:

0.08". Measuring it was the first thing I did the first day I had access to the laser.

I figured you would have, but a lot of people I've talked to are surprised that they'd have to do that. 

[Andyjr1515]

3 hours ago, sirspens said:

And nothing can seem to go right.

Tried to see how the neck fits (holes already drilled from last time). But before the neck even tightened all the way down the StewMac screws snapped. The screws weren't even tight! (And, yes, before anyone asks, I pre-drilled holes and I even took them 1/8" deeper than needed, just to be safe.)

I... I think there is something wrong with me. haha

Actually, I think we've all done that at one stage or another.  Problem is that maple is rock hard!  As you say, drilling the hole is a must...and it needs to be the right size...and then many put a bit of soap on the threads before doing the 'one turn in and half a turn back out again'. 

[sirspens]

17 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

...and then many put a bit of soap on the threads before doing the 'one turn in and half a turn back out again'. 

I'll keep that in mind for the future.

[2.5itim]

What size are the screws? #12? And what size drill bit did you use? Only reason I ask is because I usually use 2 different size drill bits for soft or hard wood. On a pilot hole for #12 on hardwood I use a 5/32" bit but if it's soft wood I use a 9/64". Maybe you used the soft pilot hole drill bit for a hardwood?

[sirspens]

3 minutes ago, 2.5itim said:

What size are the screws? #12? And what size drill bit did you use? Only reason I ask is because I usually use 2 different size drill bits for soft or hard wood. On a pilot hole for #12 on hardwood I use a 5/32" bit but if it's soft wood I use a 9/64". Maybe you used the soft pilot hole drill bit for a hardwood?

I used this jigger... http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/Screws_and_Springs/Neck_Mounting_Ferrule_Screws.html

And if I remember correctly, I used a 5/32" bit for the pilot hole. I used the same bit for the mahogany body and the maple neck. In fact, I strapped it all down and drilled it through all at once.

[Prostheta]

Cheese grade screws don't help. I hope you'll be shouting at Stewmac for this. 

[a2k]

On February 27, 2016 at 8:13 AM, sirspens said:

 I mean, my travails are light, to be sure, it's just frustrating to put so much thought, planning and effort and then make one tiny mistake that I did everything I could think of to avoid...

Anyway... the guitar could be nice. I like the design. I want to play it... I have the second body. And honestly wood is fairly cheap. I can get back on track, but I am just so bad at doing things by hand. I have been practicing my hand carving to do a neck by hand. It is embarrassing. I have watched video after video and I can't even figure out how to draw a spokeshave without it being all dunka-dunka-dunka-dunka.

First, it sounds like the issue with the neck pocket isn't really a show stopper. And second, speaking from my deep experience of having built 0.75 instruments so far in my life (but it counts double because it's a bass), I can tell you that this is hard. Go do a survey of 100 people on the street and zero will have (or ever will) built a guitar. If it wasn't hard, it wouldn't be anywhere near as worthwhile or interesting. 

When I started down this journey months ago, I walked into the shop simultaneously terrified and fully believing that I was going to make a flawless instrument. Both are irrational. I'm now neither terrified nor expecting perfection. It's freeing and really helping me enjoy the process and learning, instead of being so focused on a specific end result. 

I know that (at this point) I don't have anywhere near the basic woodworking skills to have any business doing what I'm doing. If I took a woodworking course, the instructor would maybe - MAYBE - let me make a small bookcase out of pine or something cheap. But the desire to create is a powerful force. For me it makes up for my lack of skill - lack of knowledge and ability might slow me down, but it sure as hell isn't going to stop me. And it's cliche, but every mistake is a chance to learn. And the more we learn, the more we can create the things we dream up. 

As for spokeshaves... I'm in the dunka-dunka club as well. I can't tell you how stressed I was about carving my neck. Everything else I did was pretty black-and-white. But this was freehand, artistic, and there are a million ways to screw it up (with only 1 way to get it right). I went crazy slow. But I did it. I ended up doing the bulk of the rough cutting with a rasp and then the fine tuning with cabinet scrapers. I had some luck with the spokeshave, but it just never worked like I see in the videos. 

Not really a pep-talk, but know you are not alone...

[Prostheta]

I respectfully disagree with some of those points. I think that everybody has right to weigh in, otherwise these things remain some kind of dark art hidden behind a curtain of mystery. When I start documenting builds specifically for the purpose of teaching (setting up a room in the house now, hence my relative absence!) it should become apparent that many things are surprisingly easy; it's more how you attack the problem and how fore-armed you are going into it. 50% of experience can be cut out of the equation instead of taking steps in dark.

Tools come under muscle memory and physical experience. I couldn't easily explain the difference between knowing when a spokeshave will chatter or when it cuts like butter. There is a degree of basic theory (cutting downhill and not into the grain, etc.) and setup however nothing can replace getting in there and doing it. Things going wrong are a great teacher. They shouldn't be regarded as a negative as long as safety is being given priority and you are willing to learn from it. That's all is required to continue developing and maturing as a woodworker.

I think that most solidbody instrument-making can be boiled down to relatively easy to digest processes when we use power tools and a few hand tools. It allows many of the factors to be distilled out of the equation once you've got a good game plan and availability of appropriate tools.

Flawless is a high mark to hit. I think that the vast majority of instrument makers that display their creations without any of the process are quite happy to not discuss difficulties and errors; the same ones that we openly discuss as part of the growing process. I've seen some amazing recoveries that are more fantastic for how they were fixed or worked around!

Mistake happen at all levels. Wood works by its own rules and pretending that this is not so is ridiculous. Experience just means you have better negotiating skills with the material. 

Not sure where this post is going. I guess I don't think anybody has any reason to complain or feel despondent about their work; like you said Aaron, once you go forward and make a guitar you're already in a very small percentage of people with experience in that field. That sort of makes you an expert, statistically.