Bizman62 Posted January 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 Alright! Joined the workshop society for a whopping €35 per semester, including insurance which another member just had proved important by cutting two of his fingers at the table saw... For members the cost is 1.90 an hour, double that for non-members. Not too bad, there's a ton of tools including two big band saws, a jointer, a planer thicknesser and a meter long belt sander - plus the blood thirsty large circular saw. As I may have mentioned, the groove for the binding was slanted as the top is radiused. There was basically no binding on the top side so I decided to route it away and replace it with fake turtle. The cheap router base for my Dremel type tool was the right choice, the bit not so much. There's no bearing on the router bit, only a guiding pin and as the blade would chew much more than needed for the binding I decided to add a rim around the guitar to adjust the groove. So I attached a strip of the binding with masking tape and super glue. The basic idea was good but the material was wrong! As the pin rotates at 10000 rpm any the friction makes it so hot that any minor stop melted the binding. Ouch! That got most of the job done but the result is bumpy. I then took a scalpel and a chisel which worked to a degree but especially the inside curves need a LOT of love before I can apply the binding. And as you can see, the poplar is soft. Even the plastic router base dug grooves on the top. And the scalpel wandered all over the place despite having used a marking gauge to draw a starting cut. Sounds like I'll have to dye the sides pretty dark to hide all the dust-glue fixes. Another option that came to my mind is to cover the entire sides with the flamed birch veneer. That should make binding easy as I could first sand the entire sides flush and then glue the fake tortoise binding and finally the birch. The figuration of the sides would then be lost. Opinions, please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
komodo Posted January 24, 2021 Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 I'm not sure if this applies to your current situation. But many guitars ago, I had a catastrophic failure with a DIY overhead pin router jig that completely screwed the binding channel and took a chunk from the body. I ended up using a spindle sander/belt sander to take the whole body in by about 1/16" - 1/8" (2-3mm). I mean, I shrunk the whole body shape by about 5%. Then created a completely new binding channel. I've got a preference for slightly undersized bodies anyways, probably because I once owned a Fender Duosonic and had so much fun throwing that thing around. Similar is Nuno's N4, the Jackson Dinky, etc. But those are all quite undersized. Taking the depth of a binding channel isn't even close to those. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted January 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 Thanks, @komodo. I was thinking similarly. As this isn't a carbon copy of any guitar no-one can tell that the size is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted January 24, 2021 Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 could always just go along the edge with a flat file and try to even it out. I love the idea of lam on the sides... probably would look great... but if it was 'over' the binding it might not adhere well... so yer back to needing to flatten that binding edge anyway. I would think that as long as you sand your binding and get a good edge on it, then bind things, then take some binding and dissolve it in acetone and touch up any bad areas... should be pretty well hidden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted January 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, mistermikev said: I love the idea of lam on the sides... probably would look great... but if it was 'over' the binding it might not adhere well To clarify the plan of laminating the sides would be to resize the body and then laminate the sides to the same thickness as the binding. The birch would also be so much harder that routing the binding channel would be much easier as the bearing wouldn't dig a groove into the side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted January 24, 2021 Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 24 minutes ago, Bizman62 said: To clarify the plan of laminating the sides would be to resize the body and then laminate the sides to the same thickness as the binding. The birch would also be so much harder that routing the binding channel would be much easier as the bearing wouldn't dig a groove into the side. well, if you were going to go through all that... why not simply build a binding channel jig. I did an used it to bind ever radius top guitar I've done... def gave me perpendicular walls and a relatively flat surface. honestly I see bending laminate that is as thick as binding to be a crap ton of work at the least. if you build a carve top binding jig you could just go in a little deeper and/or a little wider and use thicker binding or perhaps layers of binding. just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted January 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 31 minutes ago, mistermikev said: why not simply build a binding channel jig I've been thinking about that. It would require the whole kit including a smaller router. Mine isn't too big but it's for two hands. The first thing I should do is to get a smaller bearing for my router bit, the first channel was routed with a lent one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted January 24, 2021 Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 6 minutes ago, Bizman62 said: I've been thinking about that. It would require the whole kit including a smaller router. Mine isn't too big but it's for two hands. The first thing I should do is to get a smaller bearing for my router bit, the first channel was routed with a lent one. lots of folks built them with bigger routers but yeah... smaller router would be best. I don't think you need a kit or anything... pretty easy to build. really just two drawer slides, some decent tension springs to pull up on the router, then build the actual platform out of whatever you have on hand. there are lots of pics out there but happy to take picks of any part of mine you want to see. afa bearings... lots of folks build them with a pin (i didn't). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted January 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 Our Master told that he built such a router jig out of a desk lamp, the rotary clamp type with swivels and springs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted January 24, 2021 Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 Just now, Bizman62 said: Our Master told that he built such a router jig out of a desk lamp, the rotary clamp type with swivels and springs. I've seen lots of them build just out of mdf. I build mine out of poplar as I recall... with a plexi base so I could see through. surprisingly easy to build. just need a box to ride the router in, and a box to mount it to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted January 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 Post a pic or three, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted January 24, 2021 Report Share Posted January 24, 2021 drawer slides - best if you can snag one's that have the 'auto close' springs. they pull the slides closed with a little bit of pressure and that acts to keep the router from wanting to 'stay' up... but isn't required... little piece around the bit there is called an 'escutchion' and is from the plumbing section. it is 'ok' as because of it's size it ends up 'averaging' out your curves... you could build a piece by shaping an old cutting board. springs in between the two pieces act to pull up on the router to help it navigate your carved top. I just used screws to hold the other sides but eyelets for this side so I could easily remove them and take the box apart if I wanted. so basically two 4 sided boxes. glued another piece of plexi in to stengthen the plexi I used. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted February 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 So... following @komodo's advice I went to the belt sander and made the body smaller. Damn the poplar is soft! It took me maybe five minutes to do the job. I then went through my sortiment of router bits and lo and behold there was one with a smaller bearing I could swap to the 1/2" bit. Having experienced how easily the bearing dug a groove on the wood I put a couple layers of masking tape on the side. My first plan was to use birch veneer but it didn't want to co-operate so tape it was. Instead of building a jig I took several passes, gradually working my way down, eyeballing the depth/width and taking care not tilting the router more than the radius of the top. The result was decent so with a scalpel and a chisel and a scraper I then tried to make the channel continuous and perpendicular. After I was happy with the result I took a heat gun and prebent the plastic a little, then glued it on with regular viscosity CA. There's some sanding required but nothing irrepairable. During the last minutes I then managed to route the roundover on the bottom side. Pretty happy so far! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted February 9, 2021 Report Share Posted February 9, 2021 right on - looks really good. nice work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted February 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2021 I guess I should write a question here and answer it myself before doing anything as I don't seem to follow the advice I'm giving others: I had sanded the body down to 180 grit - once. And then in eager to get something done I tried to apply dye for a burst... Fortunately only on the back and sides, as I had not a) sanded through the grits down to 320 or 400 and b) I had not even thought about moistening the surface for raising the grain! Oh well, the bottom was so lightly dyed that it took just a second to sand it clean. On the sides I found some glue squeeze-out and gaps along the binding so I made some black putty with TiteBond, sanding dust and dye. And I've changed my mind about the colour scheme. Guess the sides have to be quite dark. I'm currently planning on dying the bottom Cherry Red, darkening it to reddish brown on the sides. The top looks so nice as natural that I may just leave it that way. Things I should have done: The pickup cavities are way too shallow, at least 5 mm deeper is the minimum. And I should have measured the length of the jack before routing the control cavity. But I've sorted it out as you can see in the pictures. Oh, and there's going to be a third hole. I had ordered a couple of sliding pots to be used as a blender pot but they never arrived. So I'm going to put a 3-way switch in the middle and the volume closest to the pickups. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted March 6, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2021 There was some progress a week ago, I took the time to sand it properly and redefined the control holes since the slider pot I was planning for a blender never arrived. So Tone-3way-Volume it will be. I also dyed it using Cherry Red Crimson Stunning Stain Shots mixed with Denaturated Alcohol. Today I sanded it back once more, as the dye work looked too blotchy. As I had found some cross grain scratches that annoyed me the resanding was double justified... Another try with the Cherry Red, mixed with some black at the edge made it look mahogany. Now that the dye has properly dried it doesn't look that fancy but when wet... Yummy! I'm still hesitant about the top - some amber might give it a vintage look but would it ruin the subtle spalting? Natural or not natural, that's the question... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted March 6, 2021 Report Share Posted March 6, 2021 43 minutes ago, Bizman62 said: some amber might give it a vintage look but would it ruin the subtle spalting? If you do it in a tint, rather than in the wood, all the features will still show nicely. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted March 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2021 @ScottR, if you mean adding the dye into the lacquer, that's unfortunately not an option for this build. The workshop has no spray booth, only a space they use for finishing. This one being an experimental low budget build in many ways will get a rattlecan clearcoat (Lidl) on the body and headstock, the neck will be oiled with what's left of the Crimson Guitar Finishing Oils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie H 72 Posted March 7, 2021 Report Share Posted March 7, 2021 Could you seal the grain with a clear base coat of whatever rattle finish you use and then follow with a few coats of an amber color? I think that top will really shine if you tame the green hue just a little Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted March 8, 2021 Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 16 hours ago, Bizman62 said: @ScottR, if you mean adding the dye into the lacquer, that's unfortunately not an option for this build. The workshop has no spray booth, only a space they use for finishing. This one being an experimental low budget build in many ways will get a rattlecan clearcoat (Lidl) on the body and headstock, the neck will be oiled with what's left of the Crimson Guitar Finishing Oils. could get one of those throw away preval sprayers. only about $15 here in the us so i would guess in your country... one lamb and a potatoe? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted March 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2021 4 hours ago, mistermikev said: could get one of those throw away preval sprayers. only about $15 here in the us so i would guess in your country... one lamb and a potatoe That is an option, however I've already bought the rattle cans and I'm curious about the quality of those... Also, according to our Master at the class the Crimson shots didn't seem to mix too well with 2k. I guess I'll try with a very weak mix with amber and alcohol. And I still have some scrap pieces. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted March 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Well, so I applied some dye... Spirit based yellow to start with, sanded back to leave only a hunch. Then some thin Amber all over, followed by a bit heavier water based Amber, trying to blend with water. I'm pretty happy with the result, it's my first direct on wood dye burst. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie H 72 Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Oooh that looks great. Perfect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 Looking beautiful and classy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 On 3/13/2021 at 9:46 AM, Bizman62 said: I'm pretty happy with the result, it's my first direct on wood dye burst. Yessir, you should be. That is nicely done! SR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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