Les paul special build(s)

[MiKro]

5 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said:

Thanks Mikro, I've had what you describe before but they've been visable prior to sanding - I don't think this is anything to do with the spraying process, when it was levelled prior to buffing, it was silky smooth, no lumps or dips 

If all was good before buffing, then definitely check your buffing pads/wheels for residue or maybe even your polish is contaminated.

mk

 

[ADFinlayson]

43 minutes ago, MiKro said:

If all was good before buffing, then definitely check your buffing pads/wheels for residue or maybe even your polish is contaminated.

mk

 

Thanks Mike, I'll try giving the mop a rake this evening, the polish is that compound block from stewmac that came with the buffer. Don't know how good it is but I expect this issue is the fault of the operator. 

[ADFinlayson]

So my problem is that I've got my pulley set too loose and the buffer isn't spinning fast enough. I set it like that on purpose so it would slow down if I applied too much pressure to prevent me burning through, but I think the compound isn't softening up as well so it's more work to get the shine out of it and some of it is building up on the surface. 

Pressing on anyway and made some covers, decided it would be cool to try a scratch plate and that would help to hide my iffy stain around the pickup area. I took a picture of the guitar head on and used that in illustrator to come up with something - really actually quite hard to design a decent looking pickguard!

Printed and cut out a piece of ebony with it 

In situe

 

it was at this point I needed pickups in place so I could fettle the guard down to but up to the humbucker ring, and pickups in place meant I needed strings on to get the pole alignment right. So tuner bushings

Then is is after I'd got the shape right and drill my holes. 

Got some danish oil on all the ebony parts, both sides to help prevent cupping.

I still have all the fretwork to do but I figured I've come this far so I might as well have a glam shot. I still don't know how I feel about the cream 

[Prostheta]

Looks great as it is. The cream parts work.

Setting the slack belt is a trick. I agree that it should be easy to stall it out, but see how raking improves matters. As long as it has adjustment built in you can get the feel dialled through use. Have you broken it in using a scrap of plywood or other hard wood yet? That should help the compound work better as a new wheel can be somewhat "closed" and packed in.

[ADFinlayson]

3 hours ago, Prostheta said:

Looks great as it is. The cream parts work.

Setting the slack belt is a trick. I agree that it should be easy to stall it out, but see how raking improves matters. As long as it has adjustment built in you can get the feel dialled through use. Have you broken it in using a scrap of plywood or other hard wood yet? That should help the compound work better as a new wheel can be somewhat "closed" and packed in.

Yes it was the "breaking it in" part that made me realise it's running too slow - the ply wood barely get's warm so I'm of the opinion that it's not getting warm enough to soften the compound enough and that is where my residue is coming from. Raking the mop did help but I just don't think there is enough torque there for the fine or extra fine compounds to polish properly. The medium compound mod it working ok though. I need to dismantle the stand and redrill the mounting holes. Or better still make it so tension is adjustable. 

[Prostheta]

Sounds like you're thinking is on track, especially with adjustable tensioning. That can be done with either an auxiliary pulley on a lockable cam, or if the motor and arbor are separable, a way of winding that distance out. I can think of a number of ways to do that. What sort of setup does your buffing wheel have?

[Bizman62]

11 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

I still don't know how I feel about the cream 

As you may remember I wasn't too impressed about it earlier. Now with the pickguard I think it works, the creamy stripes of the ebony make a big difference!

[ADFinlayson]

I drilled new holes for the arbour that has brought it forward by 1/2" which seemed to be all it needed, Mops are turning significantly faster now even with considerable pressure against them. With the holes being so close to the original, I decided to file between them to make a longer holes, so I just need to loosen off the bolts and push the arbour back a bit to get the belt off. 

I'm getting much better results now, still seems to be betting the dry compound though but someone on another group suggested spraying some soapy water on the guitar - apparently that issue I was having is down to dry compound. I was using the chemical guys cutting polish anyway by that point and once I'd sped the buffer up I was getting much better results, so I might just stick with that and ditch the fine compound. This one has been sat around for a few days now but it's all finished. Just need to take some decent pics, I've got a friend popping over to have a play on it at the weekend, so I might see if I can do a little demo video.

Very happy with the final colour scheme - I've now written on a bit of masking tape, the origin of all the different cream pickup rings/covers and stuck them to the parts so I know what colour comes from where, for the next time I deal with cream parts. 

 

I made a start on the next ones at the weekend too. Thicknessed and roughed out the body blanks.

Jointed and glued up the tops

Roughed them out on the bandsaw, ebony is a bugger for hiding pencil lines, even with my desktop lamp pointed directly at it, I could barely see the line. I think I need to invest in a white pencil.

Then I cut out a couple of f-holes, the maple top is 8.5mm thick so I used a round-nose bit on the router to thin out the underside around the f-hole to make it look a bit more delicate from the outside, I'll tidy this up with sandpaper before I glue it up.

The ebony top is only 5mm thick so delicate enough. though not delicate enough to let 3 of my fretsaw blades live.

Final job was to rough out the neck blanks. They've been stickered for a couple of days with no visible movement but I will leave them for probably a couple of weeks before I do any more with them. 

[Prostheta]

Ah, excellent. A simple fix is always nice. Fewer mechanisms increase stability and reliability, so if you don't need adjustment then that's the way to go.

I wish that more people would let workpieces acclimate to their new shape after significant machining operations. It's better to spot any issues at this stage than it is for them to make themselves known near the finishing line.

[ADFinlayson]

On 1/26/2022 at 10:49 AM, Prostheta said:

Ah, excellent. A simple fix is always nice. Fewer mechanisms increase stability and reliability, so if you don't need adjustment then that's the way to go.

I wish that more people would let workpieces acclimate to their new shape after significant machining operations. It's better to spot any issues at this stage than it is for them to make themselves known near the finishing line.

My process, which granted changes frequently, is currently to rough out necks early on, work on the bodies until I can work on bodies no longer and then come back to necks so they've had as much time as possible to do their thing before I do anything with final dimensions. I don't know if you can see from that pic but I've also started writing the date I got it and the moisture content on the piece so I know what I'm working with, for example, I got 2 mahog neck blansk and 2 mahog body blanks a few weeks ago form G&W. one of the body blanks was 8% and the other one was 15%, so the 15er isn't getting touched for months. All of the blanks for these builds are 7-8% so I will be surprised if I see any movement at all. 

[ADFinlayson]

Made some progress on the bodies. I got myself some 5mm plexi and made a larger base for the trim router - I was going to do the same for the Trend but I will need some longer machine screws. It's a game changer tbh, no more dodgy wobble on the edge and I can get in the middle of big chambers like I'm doing here. 

Chamber and channels done

I tidied up the f-holes, sanded them to 220 and sealed the maple one with cellulose sealer prior to glueing, makes life so much easier to get those finalised prior

Time for glue up, both tops and bodies are oversized because I draw around the template with a 1/4" washer, so I use 2mm coctail sticks as locator pins to make sure everything stays in place, then put a template over top - I drilled the locator pin holes at the tops and toggle.

I've only got enough clamps to glue one top at a time, I'm thinking I need to invest in some more of those blue G clamps, or maybe try a vaccume bag. 

I like keeping everything oversized at this point, it doesn't matter if glue spills all down the sides and every time I've done it this way, I've had much better seams - The template makes the perfect clamping caul.

Then I got them routed out, I just used the hand router so lots of router marks to sand out. This has got me thinking I need to get myself a decent cutter block and get my spindle moulder (shaper) operational so I can route the shape at full height and avoid all those annoying lines from switching out bits. The supplier I got the Laguna from sell a 80x62mm spiral cutter block with bearings that would be suitable but it's about £270 all in, might have to wait until I've sold a build. I'm also utterly terrified of spindle moulders. 

I'm doing my usual natural/faux binding on the maple but as the ebony top is only 5mm thick (it's an acoustic back set) I thought I would try my hand at plastic binding. I figured I will need to get all my side sanding close so that I don't end up changing the shape with sanding once the binding is done so sanded all the sides with 80 grit.

The maple has come up really nice, lots of fleck and edge flame 

Tomorrow I shall get the backs rounded over, and neck pockets done, then I think I'll try my hand at binding the ebony one. 

[Prostheta]

Letting time do its thing with wood is always the wise course of action. I never measure the moisture content myself, I simply make the assumption that it will come in at transport moisture (unless bought at specific levels) and I'll give it time to come down to usable levels. Even when bought "dry" I prefer to give it time, since it's all positive. Better that it adjusts in the rough than in the customer's hands.

I wouldn't bother with a vacuum bag press unless you're veneering. It can only develop clamping forces at atmospheric pressure (since that is what is pushing down on the bag/breather/release layers.

If your concern is applying clamping pressure to the centre of the layup, make yourself a set of hardwood bow clamps for pressing tops, as you only need twice as many clamps as you have caul sets with those. I'd say that the way you're clamping at the moment is absolutely fine, and you can always drive screws into areas that will be routed out to get good location and a little cinching action. I don't have numbers on metalworker's c-clamps, but those orange/black handled f-clamps are doing the heavy lifting there. From what I remember, the force applied by c-clamps (g?) isn't as high as you might think. I spent a LOT of money on my Bessey/Würth f-clamps, but they're troopers and worth their weight, literally. I can't find mine on the Bessey UK site, however I have a number of the ratcheting GH20 clamps as well. They take up a lot of space because of the handle motion, but are nice for perimeter work. The spine of the clamp is single piece, same as my 140 throat/300 depth f-clamps.

https://www.besseytools.co.uk/bessey-lever-clamp-gh20-200-100

I don't think that you can go far wrong with those orange/black f-clamps if you're minding the pennies, but if you're truly investing in a clamp forest then go big. Everything is just so much smoother and stress-free from that point on in.

[Bizman62]

7 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

I'm thinking I need to invest in some more of those blue G clamps,

Why not make some clamps by yourself? A bunch of plywood C shaped pieces and wedges made out of offcuts are an inexpensive yet effective way.

[Prostheta]

For anything that requires small amounts of clamping pressure, I would agree. That said, it must be understood that there are two types of successful clamping (to make this more brief, presuming relatively standard PVAc) when gluing two surfaces.

Firstly there's the physical component where the surfaces are well mated, both wetted with the glue and in good contact during the setting up period. This requires less clamping pressure to achieve, which the plywood-and-wedge method described will generally produce. Certainly, this can easily be more pressure than a vacuum bag which would be 10N/cm² or 14,5PSI at sea level. It might produce a join that is adequate for the end use, but less likely to hit the second point, which is a cosmetically invisible glueline. This requires a higher clamping pressure a magnitude greater than that so that the contact between the two surfaces is excellent without excess adhesive between the two. This also increases bond strength, but not enormously so.

If a body is being bound so that the glue line between a top and the core wood is covered, then you have latitude to get away with a lot more. When joining two halves of a body blank, I always ensure that the clamping pressure exerts around 150-200PSI so that the join is as cosmetically clear as possible. Surprisingly, glue evacuation is not something that is readily achievable without a lot of effort and way more clamps than is reasonable (or generally feasible) and that's a subject on its own....

Clamping with a plywood-and-wedge method might work for much smaller surface area clamping, such as around the rim of a violin or an acoustic, but a solidbody has about two magnitudes of surface area more than that. The numbers get a bit weird to look at when you run them, but there's a method.

[Bizman62]

For clarification I didn't mean to solely rely on the plywood-and-wedge clamps. However they can be a nice addition. Also, a lot of their pressure depends on several things: How thick is the plywood i,e, does it give in, for the same reason the depth; the angle of the wedges and the method you push the wedges in also matter. Long shallow wedges tightened with a sledgehammer sure do apply a lot of pressure...

Another easy to build clamp can be made out of scrap pieces, carriage bolts and wingnuts. Regular hex bolts and nuts would allow using wrenches which should apply any desired pressure. A torque wrench would even allow for using the same pressure everywhere.

[Prostheta]

Rim clamps are great, agreed. These are also more appropriate for acoustics/violins, etc. Have you come across what's called a "pressure cone" in engineering for bolted parts? The same applies to clamping wood. The interface between each part is the area that the clamping pressure is mostly applied to with wood, which is why thicker cauls help to distribute that pressure over a wider area.

 

[Bizman62]

44 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

Have you come across what's called a "pressure cone" in engineering for bolted parts?

I have no knowledge about engineering, my first occupational studies were about bookkeeping and the last about PC help. But I get what you mean, a small base like the cap spreads pressure to a smaller area than a larger rim or even a washer.

[Prostheta]

Here we go. These are the ones I use. Bessey GZ30 or the Würth rebranded equivalent.

https://www.ilaritools.fi/product/46/ruuvipuristin-bessey-gz

Prices vary, but aim for less than €50 each. Some places do package deals of 3x for reasonable prices. The two-part Bessey clamps with the pinned head just aren't as good. Single piece steel spine, wooden handle. No looking back. 

edit: UK source

£39 ~5000N clamping pressure
https://www.machinery4wood.co.uk/Bessey-All-steel-screw-clamp-classiX-GS-300-140/P41492

£50 ~6000N clamping pressure (these are what I have)
https://www.machinery4wood.co.uk/Bessey-All-steel-screw-clamp-GZ30-300-140/P41522

Not sure how to convert N to PSI given there's no surface metric.

[ADFinlayson]

I'm not keen on those Bessy clamps, A. They are silly money IMO, and B. I don't like f-clamps as there can be a tendancy for them to slip. Screw clamps I find product a much more reliable clamping force. In an ideal world I would get a load of those g-clamps with the swivel handle so they don't get in the way of each other, they're silly money as well though. I just had a look on screwfix and the blue Irwin 6" G clamps I first bought when I started building in 2018, were £5.99 each, they're now £10.99! so I might start gradually acquiring some more of those. I've been meaning to take a trip to screwfix to stock up on some consumables for a little while but I had a Happy new year from Audi and been without my car for 3.5 weeks now. Hopefully I don't run out of anything in the meantime, it will be at least another week before the dashboard has been repaired. 

Got the control cavities roughed out this morning and routing the round overs.

Then I routed both neck pockets to 35mm depth at the very front - tapers up 2.8º. Then on to the binding for the ebony one.

Got the channel routed to 1/4" depth, nice and neat and even, no tearout - The extra large base I made for the trimmer really helps with the channels and round overs - I don't have to do it on the router table and it's much easier to climb cut when taking the router to the work instead of the work to the router.

Oh I also drilled the pot and toggle holes to size - I will need to finalise depth of those once I've got all the course sanding done i.e everything is at final thickness.

Then on to the binding, started off well.. I taped the binding in place then wicked in fine superglue 

I got a good way round then snapped the bastard binding when I was trying to bend it round the lower horn. I warmed it up with the heat gun and it seemed to be bending around nicely but all of a sudden it seemed to go really brittle and just snapped. So I pulled the whole lot off, doing some minor damage to the floor of the cavities. I did think about doing a join instead but too awkward of a spot to have a join as it's right on the bend and I figured it will probably visible.

So after cooling off for an hour, I rerouted the channel to 7mm which removed the evidence and started again, this time at the horn. Had no issue bending the binding this time, although I did end up with a hairline gap there that I later filled with some binding goop.

Then plain sailing once I'd got round the horn.

But a lot of work on clean up. 

I must have spend a good hour sanding the superglue and tape off with 120, being careful to sand evenly and not adjust the binding thickness. The binding is 1.5mm thick and I routed my channels to the match.

I've still got the area inside the lower horn to do but it is starting to look good 

I wonder if I'm better off getting some binding glue for next time, I did think about using acetone to wick in once it was taped up but the area around that horn was so awkward that I wanted to use something quick drying so I could hold it in place. Natural binding is a lot easier!

[Prostheta]

I've started using a cement, which is essentially gelled acetone or other solvent. Wicking has you working blind, and I don't work on faith. A little acetone fuming over a jar helps soften for horns.

I know what you mean about Bessey clamps slipping. It's why you're meant to plant the foot before the screw pad otherwise they end up a little offset.

[Bizman62]

8 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

I wonder if I'm better off getting some binding glue for next time

An acetone based glue like @Prostheta suggested is a good option. However there's differences in the binding materials. The old style stuff melts well but the new stuff not that easily.

A good option to glue plastic to wood is Zap/Pacer Formula 560 Canopy Glue. It can be wiped off with a damp rag when it's still wet and it dries clear.

[Prostheta]

It seems to require figuring out one's own working methods....I've found that for ABSs my sweet spot is where the interface between the binding and the wood becomes slightly smushy, so that the binding can drive itself into the rough surface of the wood. Wicking acetone doesn't seem to achieve this level of bond unless the binding is under a good amount of tension to "drive" it into the channel. I've taken to using different methods for different areas such as brushing acetone to soften the binding in difficult areas (rounded corners on headstocks) in addition to prior heat forming. Never at the same time of course! The smush factor during attachment helps to cover any discrepancies better than trying to backfill with acetone/binding slurry after the fact, as that never seems to colour match or blend in seamlessly enough. Smushing produces a wonderful unified join line once scraped back.

I haven't had opportunity to do anything with CAB or celluloid recently, however "muscle memory" for choosing the approach before for those materials is different to ABS , certainly.

[ADFinlayson]

I't sure Bessy are better than others - They need to be at that price, but I've got loads of f-clamps and they all have the potential to slip and when I'm trying to get as many clamps on in as short a time possible, I'd rather just screw down some g-clamps than faff around trying to make sure the base is perfectly level. The little red 3" screw clamps pictured above aren't bad and only £4.99 a go, but when you've got a top glueing on to a body with a caul top and bottom, they're pretty much maxed out. Ideal for fretboard glue ups though. 

[Andyjr1515]

Excellent progress @ADFinlayson 

 

[ADFinlayson]

Got my neck blanks planed up, one of them had a teeny bit of up bow and the other was still dead straight but I skimmed them both anyway, then I tidied up the headstock angles on the planer too - As long as the bandsaw cut is square, running the face of the headstock of the planer is a really nice and fast way of getting a nice face.

Look how different these two blanks look. At first I thought G&W had mugged me off with a bit of sapele until I grabbed a bit of sapele and saw it looked completely different.

Next job was to cut my fret slots - First time having a proper go using the table saw blade and template to do it. I spent a good bit of time getting a 3x2 perfectly square, to use as the sled to go behind the board and template. I used the planer to get a square face and edge, then went to use the thicknesser to get the parallel face/edge but the damn thing wasn't working. The in-feed roller was stuck still so I couldn't push the work through. After climbing inside this cavern of sorrow, I discovered the belt that drives that roller had come off and that belt was right at the back.

This machine was bought in 2001 by a newly retired cabinet maker and shortly after he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's and wasn't allowed to use it - very sad. I bought it from his son along with a few hand planes when he was clearing out his shed when he passed in 2020. So it had been sat in the shed unused through all those winters and I expect the belt has stretched, it certainly feels like old hard rubber. I put it back on and it seems to be working fine but I think I'll need to get a new one.

So once I had my 3x2 perfectly square, I installed the pin for the template 6,5mm from the bottom to account for the thickness of the fretboard and located 3mm over to one side of the blade so I can't risk hitting it, This means the slots on the fretboard will be offset by 3mm from the template.

Then after checking the cross cut sled was a perfect 90º with the blade about a dozen times, I had a go and it worked like a charm

Prior to doing the slotting, I jointed one edge of the fretboard blanks to get them perfectly square, then I masking taped and superglued them to the template so the flat edge of the board was flush with the side of the template where the pin was going into the notches and my centre lines would have to be referenced from that flat edge. This method worked nicely however, in the case of the rosewood board, sometimes fretboard blanks are quire narrow and come tapered so the supplier can get more boards from the material, this meant that the board is only just barely wide enough at high frets. To get around that in future I would need a centre line on the board and a centre line on the template and match them up, or just buy wider fretboards.

Once my slots were cut with the template. I took the template off and measured 8mm on from the 24th fret slot, then I ran the board over the blade again on that line to give me a consistent fretboard end. Then I cut through the zero slot and my new 25th fret slot all the way with a hand saw to get the boards to final length. 

I haven't glued pre slotted fretboards on for a long time. I used to use cocktail sticks as locator pins, that method works but if you're using small or medium fretwire like I am, sometimes you can see a tiny bit of cocktail stick after fretting. I've got a 1mm and 1.5mm drill bits now, so I might try drilling tiny holes for pins and use a few pin nails to hold the boards in place while I clamp them down instead.

Next job that I did this evening was headstock ears. I cut a couple of strips from each of the wedges I cut off for the headstock angle and glued those one. I cut them fairly close so there isn't much to plane off and use a couple of grains of salt to stop them sliding around when clamping. I normally clamp on side on, leave it 20 mins or so then remove clamps and do the other side, then leave both clamped for a few house - it's much easier to clamp them on one and a time.

I got Stewmac truss rods this time - I haven't used them before but they look the same as what I normally use only wrapped in red plastic and £5 cheaper. Only thing is I hate the plastic wrap they come in, I'm sure they're there to prevent rattle but I cut the plastic wrap off anyway - it reduces height by .5mm and I'd rather have that extra bit of wood. 

With any luck, tomorrow evening I'll get them cut on the bandsaw and routed.