renablistic Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 I love to play the blues, but i hate scales and theory and all that bull crap. So my question is when you're playing the blues do (or should) you use scales and theory? I believe in my opinion that the blues should be played improv. think of it this way; The first bluesman were poor, uneducated black men who lived in the south, namely the mississippi delta. Do you think they knew anything about scales or theory? NO. They picked up the damn guitar and played it. Alot of them didn't even bother to tune perfectly. Sometimes they would pick up an old medicine bottle and play a little slide. ALL IN FAVOR?!?! -John sorry, it's a personal demon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weezerboy Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 i said somewhere in between its impro, but impro has to have a basis, otherwise its just random notes...and its also made up of licks and stuff that you can throw in, and are usually pretty simple to change key... also there are certain techniques etc which are useful to employ.. i reccomend that you buy a bunch of blues CDs, and get the tabs off of www.mxtabs.net , www.tabrobot.com or www.guitartabs.cc and then learn them..this way you will have many licks and chords that you can stick together and i know now someone is gonna post saying that you learn nothing from tab...i say bullsh*t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbkim Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 I think you should play augmented scales, a half-step up from tonic... exclusively Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weezerboy Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 anything i play, usually is in the key of E (easiest blues key imho) and always involves the riff from baby blue by the white stripes (originally gene vincent) , a blues shuffle, that stop/start thingy , etc etc then solos for a few hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StreamLine Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 i'm sorry but i dont dig the 'old bluesmen were poor'...... they were; but thats what the times were like. its an excuse not to learn theory, with which i dont agree. besides IMO blues does sound more interesing when you DO know what you're playing - sure its based on pentatonics, but for me an occasional locrian nat 6 run doesnt go amiss..... spices things up. but thats me...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbkim Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 besides IMO blues does sound more interesing when you DO know what you're playing - sure its based on pentatonics, but for me an occasional locrian nat 6 run doesnt go amiss..... spices things up. but thats me...... Hmm... locrian with a natural 6th? That's a mode of the harmonic minor scale. You trying to Yngwie-ize the blues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehle Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 I'm fairly dedicated to playing a version of the blues scale that I call "the magic scale". It's basically the pentatonic blues scale with two extra passing tones thrown in for good measure. It becomes a pattern like anything else, but the chromatic passing tones add that nice Steve Morse flavor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renablistic Posted March 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 yes. i reccomend that you buy a bunch of blues CDs, is like 10 good enough? Plus like 6 vinyl records? I have plenty. I play along, and i have gotten most of my licks from there. When i say "improv" i don't mean "random" there IS a BIG difference. Thanks for the opinions so far! -John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snork Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 learn dorian for SRV pentatonic minor is basis for all blues. pentatonic major is clapton. i know all scales in 3. once you combine the 3 its just a matter of getting tempo and chops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Dangerouso Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 Ahhh......a semi-theory thread. My absolute favorite; you see theory is my thing. What Jehle and Snork say is almost the same thing. Jehle's "Magic Scale" is a great idea, used not just by Morse, but by Eric Johnson too (check out the "Total Electric Guitar" video - an all time classic). Now we can also say SRV uses this idea too since Dorian = minor pentatonic + two tones. Here's the breakdown: Minor Pentatonic: 1, b3, 4, 5, b7 Major Pentatonic: 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 Dorian: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7 - All we have added from MP is the 2, 6! Now, here's something you probably didn't know..... If you play the first "shuffle" progression that like Johnny B. Goode and whatever else uses....you know (without having me tab it out) the one where you play the root fifth interval (two note "power chord" 6th string, 5th fret and 5th string 7th fret) and you slap your pinky on the 5th string, 9th fret to create the shuffle, and then you do the same thing for the D(5th string, 5th fret and 4th string, 7th fret) and then the E (you get the idea) here's what you get in the progression: The A: 1, 5 and then 1,6 so, A and E then A and F# The D: 1, 5 and 1,6 is D and A then D and B The E: 1, 5 and 1,6 E, B and E, C# Now if you play a minor pent solo over this....doh! Do you see what is implied? Through the A and D chords you imply Dorian. Why? the F# in the A chord dealy is the 6th degree of A, and the B of the D chord dealy is the 2nd degree of A + minor pent and you have Dorian. What about the E chord? C# is the 3rd degree, not the b3. This would imply a major tonality. This the the doh! This is not a problem, play the minor pent.....the major/minor tonal ambiguity is a trademark of the blues. If you just played the root-fifths and didn't do the pinky thing, then switched back and forth between Major and Minor pentatonic you would get the same effect. I suppose this is what Snork means by Clapton = major pentatonic. I know for a fact he plays plenty of minor pentatonic along with that major. Hope its not too confusing. There's more to the minor pent + two tones deal. You can get Aeolian (natural minor) and Phrygian the same way. I won't torture you with any more for now. Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wylde1919 Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 I dont think its fair to seperate the terms improv and theory as the two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I believe they are almost intertwined. Even if you just play by ear, and have never read a single word on theory, you are still probably playing scales. You have to think about something, music theory isn't a true or false kind of thing, Its a documented guide of how we hear things in western music. Theory is born of music tradition and helps us figure out the "math" behind what we naturally think sounds good. This holds true for the blues just as much as it does baroque music or anything else. I know for a fact if you listen to old robert johnson, or blind lemon jefferson, A WHOLE LOT of what they play is ofund within the blues scale, and most of what isn't is just passing tones!. Even when blues guys play "outside the changes" alot of that is based on theory too, the V of V or the IV of V, tritones, the whole like. Just my two cents! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeB Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 i voted in between - basically your ear does theory in a way without knowing it, and you learn it - the ppl in the missippi who invented the blues and jazz, the black slaves didnt get lessons, and didnt learn theory, but played by ear, learnt the instrument well, and learnt form their mistakes, ie play AMaj chord they learnt the tonality and played a suitable scale - AMaj pentatonic etc... so this is kinda theory where it is just instinct. StreamLine Posted on Mar 10 2004, 12:05 AM i'm sorry but i dont dig the 'old bluesmen were poor'...... they were; but thats what the times were like. its an excuse not to learn theory, with which i dont agree Streamline - these ppl had no money to have theory lessons, so it seriously wasnt an excuse! also i might add that the black slaves who didnt have lesons were equally competant if not more than white musicians of the time when playing the Jazz or Blues. Basically i feel theory is great, and i quite like it, and use it to improve my music, but it is not necessary to make good music, you can play what sounds good without theory. I am not making difference of colours above, just stating the facts, black ppl invented Blues and Jazz by combining different styles of music, dance rhythms and sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StreamLine Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 besides IMO blues does sound more interesing when you DO know what you're playing - sure its based on pentatonics, but for me an occasional locrian nat 6 run doesnt go amiss..... spices things up. but thats me...... Hmm... locrian with a natural 6th? That's a mode of the harmonic minor scale. You trying to Yngwie-ize the blues? hehe i suppose so but it does make for some great blues STYLE playing in my opinion, if used very sparingly (like 1 lick every two mins or so ) that steve morse idea is great though, i find it really useful (when i'm not playing licks form harmonic minor modes ) - though a word of warning - be very wary of that maj7......... it can sound very very dodgy over the m7 chord of say A (if we're key of A) even if its just one note in a 2 octave run.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 ...be very wary of that maj7......... it can sound very very dodgy over the m7 chord of say A (if we're key of A) even if its just one note in a 2 octave run.... My theory teacher used to tell us if it sounds out of place, play it twice more and call it a "Jazz passing tone". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weezerboy Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 someone once said, maybe dave navarro..if you play a wrong note- go back and play it again and call it modal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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