Project S906 #5

[Prostheta]

If you want to explore electronic switching I can have a look at that for you sometime. Currently snowed under, but not literally. It's a warm winter.

[RestorationAD]

If you want to explore electronic switching I can have a look at that for you sometime. Currently snowed under, but not literally. It's a warm winter.

Thanks it might be the right route to go. I need a circuit board switcher not a mechanical relay (no need for extra magnetics).

[Prostheta]

I had the idea of using round-headed stud contacts which come through the front of the instrument and use skin resistance to activate specific configurations in an active circuit. Minimal footprint on the body and lots of potential applications. I want to get my current projects done and dusted first though.

[RestorationAD]

I had the idea of using round-headed stud contacts which come through the front of the instrument and use skin resistance to activate specific configurations in an active circuit. Minimal footprint on the body and lots of potential applications. I want to get my current projects done and dusted first though.

Now we are talking. When you are ready lets talk. I like this idea...

[avengers63]

It all sounds like a terrific idea. Just be cautious. Since you're trying to build a brand, you HAVE to consider your customers. The general public is hesitant to embrace new technology and ideas. You've done the research... you know that other companies have introduced ideas & tech that have tried to push the industry forward only to be met with brick-wall-resistance and go down in flames.

Every once in a while, something really great comes along that the public DOES embrace right away. Steinberger comes to mind. Then they became successful and Gibson bought them and basically killed the brand. Why? They were a threat to the status-quo that the Big Two have been ramming down our collective throats for 60 years.

I'm NOT advising against pushing the envelope. I'm just advising caution. If it's too different, it's likely not to be accepted.

[RestorationAD]

It all sounds like a terrific idea. Just be cautious. Since you're trying to build a brand, you HAVE to consider your customers. The general public is hesitant to embrace new technology and ideas. You've done the research... you know that other companies have introduced ideas & tech that have tried to push the industry forward only to be met with brick-wall-resistance and go down in flames.

Every once in a while, something really great comes along that the public DOES embrace right away. Steinberger comes to mind. Then they became successful and Gibson bought them and basically killed the brand. Why? They were a threat to the status-quo that the Big Two have been ramming down our collective throats for 60 years.

I'm NOT advising against pushing the envelope. I'm just advising caution. If it's too different, it's likely not to be accepted.

I see what you are saying.

I am very aware of how the industry hates change. The brand is going to go the way of the traditional 3-way switch because in testing most people are afraid of the push/pull or push/push.

For my target audience (not guys that play genres other than metal)

My favorite conversation:

customer: "How do you turn both pickups on?"

me: "You don't."

me: "Do you ever run both pickups _on_ while playing?"

customer: "No"

me: "Then why is it a problem?"

I want a new switching style for me and the few minions that agree with me.

[RestorationAD]

I'm NOT advising against pushing the envelope. I'm just advising caution. If it's too different, it's likely not to be accepted.

BTW - Pot this is the Kettle. You and I have been arguing this off forum over surface mount pickups!

[avengers63]

I was thinking about that too. I suppose the only difference is that I'm not trying to market my guitars.

Now, if I can inspire you to try and carve out a niche for uber-light guitars, maybe I'll have done some good. With 1" thick guitars, you'd pretty much have to have thin little surface mount pups. But even that would likely be met with resistance. Pup swapping and other hot-rodding would be virtually impossible because of the hardware limitations. Also, I'd speculate that a Strat-style or Floyd trem would be difficult with a body that thin.

[Prostheta]

Guys. This is a switch. Next you'll get your knickers in a knot over the colour of wire or whether ribbon cable is the work of Santa.

[Juntunen Guitars]

Smells like arse, hot, sits in a pot... plus epoxy and titebond are almost permanent (I said __almost__ don't flame me).

Having done repair work when I was younger I can't tell you how many times I had to put different pieces back together on vintage instruments left in trunks, humid practice spaces, next to heaters, the rain (The back of a pickup is a bad place to carry your gear...), etc...

I should use hide glue more with my love of vintage sensibilities but for working guitars I have to think bullet proof. I use hide glue for gluing nuts on though.

Haha yeah I had a feeling I would get a response liike that. A lot of people feel that way. I have used it a little for acoustic work and like the way it turns out. You just have to remember that you have under a minute to clamp it everywhere before it sets to much to hold at full strength. You're right on the heat issue but in my experience hot hide glue and titebond were pretty close to the same heat resistance. I had about 20 acoustic backs in the bed of my truck one summer that I forgot about and they were there for a day, when I came back to them the ones with titebond I had to scrap because when the glue joint loosened from the heat they just slid around and warped the top so to fix it I would have had to joint off way to much wood so it would have gotten to thin. The hide glue just separated so all I had to do was sand a little and it was flush and ready for glue again.

Mainly I use titebond too though.

[RestorationAD]

I was thinking about that too. I suppose the only difference is that I'm not trying to market my guitars.

Now, if I can inspire you to try and carve out a niche for uber-light guitars, maybe I'll have done some good. With 1" thick guitars, you'd pretty much have to have thin little surface mount pups. But even that would likely be met with resistance. Pup swapping and other hot-rodding would be virtually impossible because of the hardware limitations. Also, I'd speculate that a Strat-style or Floyd trem would be difficult with a body that thin.

Hmmmm... no. Parker already did that and did it better than I ever could. Using standard pickups is important to a brand as no matter how good your product is "internet lackies" love to follow the latest trends in their favorite forums that tell them to replace pickups with other pickups.

As for the trem system I think the Ibanez Z-trem will fit in mine.

Guys. This is a switch. Next you'll get your knickers in a knot over the colour of wire or whether ribbon cable is the work of Santa.

Santa didn't make ribbon cables?

I had about 20 acoustic backs in the bed of my truck one summer

I thought I told you not to carry gear in the back of a pickup?

[RestorationAD]

Prostheta

I am serious about a contact based switching system... it is a great idea.

[Prostheta]

Cool. Lets take this to PM for development as opposed to rattling it out in the open. I have little use for it other than the having been-there-solved-that. Realistically the tactile feedback you get from a physical switch is preferable for most players however the availability of a unique option does have its advantages. PM me.

Oh yes. I don't envy you working that Ebony on the top. I am sure than I get a mild flu-y fever every time I work the stuff. It's so fine when I sand it that I have difficulty avoiding it. The black-bogies-in-the-shower syndrome.

[RestorationAD]

Cool. Lets take this to PM for development as opposed to rattling it out in the open. I have little use for it other than the having been-there-solved-that. Realistically the tactile feedback you get from a physical switch is preferable for most players however the availability of a unique option does have its advantages. PM me.

Done. I have several ideas.

Oh yes. I don't envy you working that Ebony on the top. I am sure than I get a mild flu-y fever every time I work the stuff. It's so fine when I sand it that I have difficulty avoiding it. The black-bogies-in-the-shower syndrome.

It is very elusive dust and gets around any low rent dust mask. My plan is to break out the beast for carving the top.

[ScottR]

Is the beast related to the neck monster?

SR

[RestorationAD]

Is the beast related to the neck monster?

SR

That wasn't the proper term... I just couldn't think of a better term for the big respirator.

[Juntunen Guitars]

I thought I told you not to carry gear in the back of a pickup?

Haha oops.

[Osorio]

Res, I think that I already asking you about the epoxy, but I can't remember.

I keep following your threads and you have using epoxy in all of them. Most of then that I see.

How about the mechanical resistence of the glued line with epoxy? Into a neck joint for exemple. Why not use titebond? Wich are the benefits of epoxy instead vinylic glues?

Every epoxy glue that I have used, even "dry", keeps a soft surface, if I press my finger nail it marks. But I don't clamp any glued pieces, guess that makes all difference.

By the way very very nice top!! Keep follow!

Osorio my friend you are using the wrong epoxy. System 3 T-88.

I do not use 5 minute epoxies from a hardware store as most of them are not strong enough.

So I was turned on to System 3 T-88 by a couple of the guys here and I have to tell you it is very very very hard. You will not press a fingernail into it. I think I have a video somewhere of me slamming a cup of it against the concrete and it bounces really high with a tight resonant crack. I have glued several test boards together with it and beat them against the concrete with results identical to titebond (breaking somewhere other than the joint). One other good thing is that T-88 does not go bad (titebond that has frozen or is old is not good for anything).

I am a proponent of titebond and I build 90% of a guitar with titebond. However titebond and really oily woods do not produce a bond on joints as strong as T-88.

I use titebond for my neck laminates, body glue ups, most tops and headplates.

I am planning on testing West Systems Epoxy more this summer (harder to use because it must be measured precisely).

Officially I use T-88 for most fretboards and some neck joints (if it is not super tight) and oily tops/headplates.

Use more clamps. I have posted several articles explaining how you should clamp joints to get proper coverage.

And of course

http://www.titebond.com/Download/pdf/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf

Here are a few other articles to read

How to Glue-Up Joints: Different Woods Need Different Clamping Pressure - Fine Woodworking

How to Glue-Up Joints: The right number of clamps - Fine Woodworking

How to Glue-Up Joints: Tips on gluing - Fine Woodworking

Of course I knew you did not use an ordinary epoxy glue, I would be roockie to think so (LOL).

Only reported my little experience with epoxy (5 min) gluing little things, where there was not great resistance mechaninc required only to show that I had no experience with epoxy in fact.

I thought the cure of the epoxy was shorter than the vinylic, and produce a stronger joint, increasing productivity and quality at the same time, but you have reason to use epoxy only for oilier woods. Nice articles, it's always good to remember things and learn others!

About the switch problem, I also thought of a blend/balance control with a ordinary pot.

[Prostheta]

In my relatively limited experience comparing the two, I regard epoxy as a "mechanical" glue which physically bridges imperfectly mated surfaces under its own strength, and yellow glue like Titebond I as a "chemical" glue which bonds as a barely-there film requiring far better jointing. Same as RAD, I am surprised at the lack of visible glue join on the fingerboard. With mating as good as that, I think Titebond would have done the job just as well. The phrase "right tool for the right job" extends to glues in my book.

Thanks for the links RAD. It reminds me that I really should be using cauls for blanks and neck glueups given my relative lack of clamps.

[ScottR]

My experience with epoxies, in particular those with a long open time like T-88 is they leech/soak into open pores, wood grain, abrasions etc. every bit a well, if not better than titebond- type glues. And I have read in articles- posted by RAD I think- that glue starvation is pretty much a non-issue, so clamp away tightly. The bonding/curing occurs at a molecular level so a thick layer of epoxy is not necessary for a good bond. Therefore tight joinery equals nearly invisible glue lines. Another thing I have discovered through testing is that too much hardener in the mix can leave the cure soft, and just a little less hardener than resin will be yield a very hard cure. That sounded counter-intuitive to me, but when i posted the results of my experiments a year or so ago, I had quite a bit of feedback confirming that finding as normal.

T-88 is good stuff.

SR

[Prostheta]

I have West System 105/205. Does the same thing translate across there also? I had a soft cure on a bass fingerboard which ended up scrapping the build and I suspect it was excessive on the hardener.

[westhemann]

My experience with epoxies, in particular those with a long open time like T-88 is they leech/soak into open pores, wood grain, abrasions etc. every bit a well, if not better than titebond- type glues.

I second that motion.I used to be a big proponent of "titebond everything"...but after the last 4 dozen or so glue laminates with slow set epoxy I have gone almost entirely "T 88 everything"

In fact,the last few times I used Titebond,the trouble and mess were just not worth the results.I now hate introducing water glues to my stuff..

[ScottR]

I have West System 105/205. Does the same thing translate across there also? I had a soft cure on a bass fingerboard which ended up scrapping the build and I suspect it was excessive on the hardener.

According to the responses I got yes.http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=44121

I tested 5 minute, 30 minute, Z-Poxy and T-88 all with the same results. Less hardener (within reason) equals harder cure. It still feels counter intuitive, but it is what it is.

SR

[RestorationAD]

I have West System 105/205. Does the same thing translate across there also? I had a soft cure on a bass fingerboard which ended up scrapping the build and I suspect it was excessive on the hardener.

Pro --

West Systems has to be EXACTLY measured with a digital scale or the pump system sold by WestSystems.

I use the a digital scale to measure west systems. The reason I am not using it on a regular basis yet is that I am still learning how to measure it and get a solid cure results everytime. It is not like you get a second chance to use it once you mix it wrong...

Consistency is the key to good guitar building.

[Prostheta]

I kind of got that impression with it. Thankfully I have only a small amount of West System left and intend to use it for a very specific non-critical job. If it fails, no big deal. I'm interested in this T-88 though. Having never been a big fan of epoxy and the rituals associated with it, I never got any further than West System. Thanks for the heads up SR/RAD.