Brian Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 The topic has blossumed into a little conversation on what is a built from scratch guitar in the voting thread and since that thread will be closed after the deadline I figured I would bring the conversation in here. What is your opinion of a built from scratch guitar? Say I built the body from a blank piece of wood but used a manufactured neck would that be from scratch or a modified guitar? Say I used a stock body from a Ebay purchase but built my own neck, would that be a ????? For a true built from scratch do the body and neck need to both be built by yourself? Wouldn't the definition include building the guitar completely by hand including winding the pickups yourself and making all of the hardware in your own shop? Let me know your opinions. I'll start, to me a from scratch guitar could be where no single manufacturer can claim they produced it as a whole item. Given this idea that would mean you actually could make a guitar from scratch using parts from several different guitars without ever having to carve a single piece of wood or paint. Remember the old song lyric that went something like "made from a 62, 63, 67, 69, 71 and 72 Cadillac" that car was built from scratch using parts from several different cars even though they were all Cadillac parts. That is just an example and some might not agree but I would like to read others thoughts on the idea. To me just changing one part such as a pickup or the decal or finish is a modified... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Before this thread really gets going I can say I doubt there will ever be a true definition that everyone is totally happy with here, but I sure would like to hear yours......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samoht Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 (edited) to me building from scratch means doing all the woodwork myself from planks and buying the hardware (which i'd also make myself if possible) from somewhere. Edited October 27, 2004 by samoht Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar_ed Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 When making cookies, when one says "from scratch," it does not mean growing and grinding your own butter, flour, and vanilla extract. But it does mean mixing the flour and butter and etc. It does not mean buying pre-mixed cookie dough and just putting it in the oven. How does this extend to making guitars? I don't think "from scratch" should require making your own pickups and bridge and pots and strings and tuners and growing & harvesting & drying your woods. Nor should it include buying a finished neck and body and just putting hardware on it. But the body and neck shaping question is tough. I just don't have an answer that makes sense to myself, much less one that I can express. Guitar Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javacody Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Something else to consider, what about premade fingerboards (where the fret slots are already cut)? Even if you add to your own neck, you haven't done all of the work. I guess, to me, homemade means that there is more of a skill level involved than bolting on a neck to a body. However, think of the amount of skill required to make a homemade neck work with an aftermaret/pre-existing body or vice versa. It involves a level of adaptability and problem solving. Just getting plans for a Les Paul and building it out of scratch (neck and body anyway), everything is laid out for you. This may not be the case when one of your components has been done by somebody else. I think there is a clear difference between assembling a kit where you get all your components supplied, vs. ordering a body and neck, and custom choosing your other components to tailor the instrument to your preferences, and vs. making the neck/body from scratch. I think we need four categories here: * Kit guitar * Aftermarkets parts guitar (Carvin, Warmoth, USACG) * Mod to an existing guitar * Homemade guitar (where at least the body OR the neck has been homemade) These are arranged in what I percieve to take the least amount of skill to the most amount of skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Well, I can make a body & a neck, but I couldn't begin to fabricate my own volume pot or etch the chips in my preamp... Given that this is (probably) for defining GOTM categories, I think no more than two categories with very simple definitions would suffice. Scratch built - made your own body & neck from lumber. Pro Stock - anything that's not scratch built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlGeeEater Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 To me it means buying all the hardware, making the body and neck out of all wood...but thats just me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGM Guitars Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Well, then how about 3 definitions, vague but 3 definitions: 1. COMPLETE CUSTOM: Where the guitar is built from raw materials (like the cookie) Certain ingredients are purchased which is a given, pickups and bridge are like chocolate chips and peanuts, you don't make those but you use them. This would dictate that the guitar was built from wood blanks, no premade necks, no premade bodies, etc. 2. CUSTOM: More like making a cake from cake mix, you have to add a few things here and there, but you're going to end up with a cake in the end. This could include a body you built but with a premade neck, or vice versa. It could also include a completely stripped and refinished body and/or stripped and inlayed neck. 3. MODIFICATION: This would be things like changing pickups, pickguards, hardware, or adding stickers etc. Basically my feeling is that the amount of in depth work should reflect on the definition. Or rather the broadness of work described. It doesn't mean that somebody isn't capable of doing more, simply that with the specific guitar being shown they put their effort into a certain part. Whether that is a full guitar, or a modification or whatever, it reflects on that particular guitar. The CUSTOM classification still makes up a huge part of my business, I also do from scratch, I don't really see either being more or less difficult than the other, and in fact some of the Custom mod's I've done have taken longer than a full guitar from scratch. However, I know when I build a guitar totally from scratch that I am in the end responsible for every single aspect of that guitar, from mounting the tuners to the strap button at the bottom. If any one of those things is messed up it's my fault. Where if I just do an inlay on somebodies guitar, I'm responsible for that inlay, fretboard, and fretjob. If a pickup route or paint finish isn't very good that's not my responsibility anymore. Anyway, just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 I think that all major building has to be done from raw materials. Neck and Body. I think that the addition of a prefab finger board as long as the rest of the neck is done from a plank shouldn't detract from the fact that it's made from scratch! You still have to glue it, shape it, radius and fret it. This are the key things that make or brake a neck. I think that the fact that I got a major part from anywhere should put me in a modified from stock category. On another case, say I get a body, say a Dinky jackson that's flat topped. And plane it, add a 1/2" maple cap and carve it, re-route the cavities, convert it from Trem to hardtail, and build my own neck I would consider this a build from scratch since I'm doing everything that I would have done with a body blank, the exeption is that I saved money by getting the body cheaper than a blank (I rather get a blank but I'm supposing here). But if I just take that body and re-paint it or change a switch from location like I did on the LP, I will consider this a modified job. I hope I didn't get anybody lost here since I'm just running Ideas. Hardware should not be included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demon Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 to me a guitar built from scratch would be one where all the woodwork (carving, routing etc) is done yourself from blocks of wood. guitars built from kits dont count as scratch built instruments in my opinion, they are just kits that have been screwed together. i used to make kit cars, but i didnt count them as being built from scratch, the only attempt i ever made to make a scratch built car was made from tubular steel, but i didnt count the engine, rear axle etc as parts that id built (well cos I hadnt......) but it was still a car built from scratch, if anyone gets what Im on about, ive kinda lost myself. I think the same about guitars. a scratch built guitar can have bought in parts like the bridge, pickups blah blah, but the major woodwork parts must be made yourself. Bought in necks or bodies would make it a customised guitar i think? I dont know im now confused an im gonna stop typing............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassman Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 from scratch- both body and neck are built from lumber. Pickups, electronics, tuners, bridges are either bought and installed or made by luthier as well. As for preslotted fretboards, that is sort of a borderline case only mentioned by a few. It may need a separate vote after "scratch" is a bit more defined. For those that do not slot their own boards, you can get very accurate results with minimal tools and quite a bit of patience. anything else... well anything else includes either a premade body with handmade neck, or vice versa. Peace, Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank falbo Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 The funniest part of this whole thread is that our definitions of "from scratch" set a higher standard than many manufacturers! Is a CNC body that Tom Anderson makes a "from scratch" body, or is it the same as buying pre-made bodies? (which he used to do anyway) I mean, by the time it pops out of the machine it's as completed as a warmoth, minus some finish sanding. To their credit, it is the success of their company that has allowed them to buy the machinery that frankly we all wish we had in our shops! But I think it's widely accepted that fretboards are machine slotted for accuracy. So with the exception of buying your fretboard, I'd agree with most that you have to build your body and neck. Major manufacturers use aftermarket pickups as value features anyway. Plus at the factories its never the same person making all the components on one particular guitar, its all different departments. My big contention is the neck. I made quite a few guitars in the old days with pre-fab necks, and I never felt like I actually "made" a guitar until I made the neck, and I haven't looked back since. Even when I re-carved, re-inlayed, and re-fretted a neck it wasn't the same. Now I can't see classifying the use of pre-fab necks as a "from scratch" guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar_ed Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 I have another category, which I sometimes fall into. For my current guitar project, I designed my own body, and had USACG build the body and neck, and then I finished them. I also spec'd out the various parts, and I will be putting the whole thing together. This is definitely not a kit. Nor is it "from scratch." But I am damn'd proud of the guitar. Guitar Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_here Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 (edited) You have to forge yer own metal & grow yer own trees!!! ...just kidding.... From the thread's title; I thought maybe Brian was asking for some ideas on a "Built From Scratch Guitar" (to get a plan for one). You know, making a new kind of guitar like-no-one-ever-has or what have you.... I'm now listed as a Forum Regular but am mostly entirely Newbie at "building" guitars. Did I just say building? Or did I mean making? Huh? NEwayz.... Following up on javacody's ideas:I think we need four categories here: * Kit guitar * Aftermarkets parts guitar (Carvin, Warmoth, USACG) * Mod to an existing guitar * Homemade guitar (where at least the body OR the neck has been homemade) I've only "assembled" a Carvin Kit up till now. If assembling can be taken as a synonym for building then, yes (MmKay), I "built" the thing. But we're talking levels of skill here. Also, we'd need to take it into account the Newbie-ness of PG Members. Then the plain fact that some of us just don't have the right tools for whatever reasons. I've used my knees as "clamps"....(go figure). So. I'd place *Mods* before Kits. E.g., installing new pups or a fret-levelling job. Mods & Repairs, going from minor to major (on up the skill level) is almost a separate category. I would assume that most of Y'all who actually make bodies from plain ol' wood & so on; you prolly started-out with Mods & Repairs. Getting "My Own Kit" together is where I'm at right now. Iow, I have various parts from various sources. And since they aren't from the same suppliers I'm having to do some Mods to get everything to work (such as sanding down a neck heel to fit a pre-routed body I bought). Upping my level a notch higher; my next "build" (if I can really call it that?)...is just a body I bought except nothing's routed yet. After all this gets done I may (just may) go for making a body & neck myself. But will have to wait for better weather as the guy's shop---I'm gonna have to borrow---isn't heated. Finally (you must be saying "Already!")....speaking for myself, I really appreciate all the help I've been getting @ PG. And the tolerance of the "newbie-builders" you much more Expert-Folks keep on having toward Ppl like me. Now, back to: The Tutorials. PS, Brian- Those "Luthier-Goggles" work great! (I found my keys).... Edited October 27, 2004 by rick_here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespresence Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Remember the old song lyric that went something like "made from a 62, 63, 67, 69, 71 and 72 Cadillac" that car was built from scratch using parts from several different cars even though they were all Cadillac parts. Man! I haven't heard that song in ages!! Cool tune! erikbojerik Posted: Oct 27 2004, 11:54 AM Scratch built - made your own body & neck from lumber. Pro Stock - anything that's not scratch built. I'd agree along these lines......but then I saw guitar_ed's post and would have to say that his would fall into the scratch built. Even though the body/neck was fab'd by someone else it was his design.......always a point of confusion!! Why not just a GOTM and who cares what or how it's made or modded as long as the entrant identifies it as ho-made or mod? Isn't that how it always worked earlier?? I've seen some mod's on here that required some serious skill to produce including inlays, finishes, electronics design, etc. To me a mod requires as much skill as a complete build, just not all the same skills. FWIW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 You show some pictures and write in detail about what happened from A to Z, and they all get put in the same catagory, and get voted on based on all the info given. If done this way , I don't think you have to worry about Johnny 13 year old's new Kramer with a swapped pickup beating Drak's ' I climbed a mountain to get this top wood' custom build. It would only happened if everyone voted stupidly. By the way, I make my own fret-wire completely from scratch. I buy the raw materials from the tooth fairy and the easter bunny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Now that I've built a couple guitars, entirely from scratch as per the body/neck definition that everyones favors so much, I don't think I would want to build a guitar with any premade body or neck. I applied for a machinist's apprenticeship at DND (Dept. of National Defense) a while back and just got a message on my answering machine letting me know that I will have to attend a qualifying math test on Nov. 9th. (125 questions in 4 hrs. and NO calculator) If all goes well, perhaps in a few years I will truly be able to build a guitar ENTIRELY from scratch with hardware that I built myself! Anyway, I like LGM's suggestion for the 3 categories. I try to build as much as possible into my guitars, eg. body, neck, pickguards and cover plates myself. Hey, if they are your own designs then I guess you don't have much choice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mushy the shroom Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 I would like to think of scratch built as "all parts that cost less to build, than buy an equivalent are built". This means items such as hardware, pickups, tuners, and the bridge are all built. Items such as screws, magnets, (possibly) frets/pots/jacks, and wire are excluded as "non-cost effective" (or just too darn hard to fabricate). I know this is unrealistic (in most cases), but it's just my philosophy. Nothing is "truly" built from scratch, unless the wood is grown and harvested, the metal is mined and treated, magnets.. (something), tools built by hand, electricity generated, air created.. etc. The original definition of scratch was "Building something from nothing". This is impossible, so it's used as a figure of speach to describe the amount of detail included in an object. So, obviously, in different cases, the meaning must be altered. AS for how this applies to our GOTM, I think it would be wise for a mod to draw a fine line through the seperate levels of scratch. Sorry for this rant, and if I stated anything previously stated, sorry from the bottom of my cerebellum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotrock Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Nothing is "truly" built from scratch, unless the wood is grown and harvested, the metal is mined and treated, magnets.. (something), tools built by hand, electricity generated, air created.. etc. Hippy Just joking Mushy. My take on it is much the same as Lex. I do thnk though that the fretboard is in the grey area and that it should be let go. You can but the fretboard and it will still be a scratch guitar (you'll just be a girly lightweight for not making your own ). Certainly a scratch guitar should be all the wood shaped etc yourself (and preferably the finish too as many people judge an axe on the finish). If you have a bought in neck, then you are just modifying that neck (albeit by sticking a new body on it), if you buy a body you are just modding the body by sticking a neck on it. If you have access to a CNC and you can pop a body out then so be it, it's still a scratch guitar you just have access to better tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 I would go for one category: GOTM. No subdivision. With simple story let people vote on winner. Sometimes a great moded guitar will win, the other times a great scratch build. This way all guitars fall in one big category. We just pick the nicest one that month completed. How was that line again: Keep it simple stupid!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 I would go for one category: GOTM. No subdivision. With simple story let people vote on winner. Sometimes a great moded guitar will win, the other times a great scratch build. This way all guitars fall in one big category. We just pick the nicest one that month completed. How was that line again: Keep it simple stupid!!! i agree.i think the way it is right now is fine.you will always have someone who complains about something no matter how you do it. there are way to many variables in guitar building to claim that one part of it is the most difficult on EVERY guitar. i think a guitar with a pre made neck and a brilliant finish,multiple inlays,top carving,and floyd rout is a much more difficult build than a flat top ash tele with no inlays and a tung oil finish,even if the neck was built on the tele. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Given how many GOTM entries there are at the end of each month, I think any more than 3 categories might be spreading things too thin. 2 or 3 categories gives more people a chance to win. 1 category is simpler and makes everything more competetive, with the result that a "win" is perhaps more prestigious. Forget the whole fretboard issue; if you have the talent to either make your own body or make your own neck, prepping & slotting a fretboard is one of your smaller worries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 I think that only one category will not be fair for the novice. I cold never compete, (at least at the level I'm now) with the ones like Jeremy or Drak, sure in a year or so and after about 3-5 guitars I would be at that place, but as of now, I will be shooting ducks with stones if I try to beat one of their guitars. I think there should be 2 cats. Like it use to a few months back. A pro (and this time don't only set it for the ones that sell guitars, anybody with a few guitars on the GOTM that doesn't sell them is a PRO in my opinion) and an amateur, one that has only modified or used premade parts (body and/or neck) I think no matter how great I can paint a guitar and mod it it will be unfair for somebody like Drak if my LP gets voted instead of his Bones. They are most definately not in the same category, even if he used a Carvin neck to build it! Forget the "From Scratch" and modified thing, lets have a PRO and AMATEUR division with the estipulations posted above instead of the old ones. I think that in the end it will be fairer to all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlGeeEater Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Maiden...your a genius! I liked when they were pro and amature a couple of months ago too...it made me feel like i could win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 (edited) Forget the "From Scratch" and modified thing, lets have a PRO and AMATEUR division with the estipulations posted above instead of the old ones. I think that in the end it will be fairer to all of us. I know a PRO who make some crappy instruments too, so my vote still goes to one overall category. Cause if you're not able to win that one overall category, you're guitar simply wasn't good enough to win. Pro or Amateur. Oh, that PRO happens to be the Fender Guitar company. Edited October 28, 2004 by RGGR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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