Is This For Real?

[Mitzlflik]

I recently sent my PRS CE24 to a local luthier for the purpose relevelling the frets additionally I had requested action be set as low as possible without creating significant fret buzz (yes I realize this is subjective) but when I got the guitar back he had put a forward bow in the neck (I like mine nearly straight) and the action was signigicantly higher than when I gave it to him (more than 3/16" from the top of the 24th fret to the bottom of the low E; I had it at about 1/8") I asked him about it and he said thats the way PRS are meant to be played. He said "they are not designed to have low action like a Jackson or a Les Paul."

I found this hard to believe and am looking for a second opinion. I purchased the guitar off of Ebay about 9 months ago and I really love the tone and how it is contoured but I am used to Jackson/Charvels and play a lot of metal which I find more challenging than with my other guitars. Is this guy correct in his remarks or is there something I can do to make it play more like a Jackson (refret)?

Just a few basics for your reference: It has a good bit of fret wire left which I would consider to be about medium height, much like a fender, personally I prefer thin and tall wire. Like all PRS it is 12" radius but I don't have problems with it bottoming out... when I lower the action the buzzing occurrs in the 1st-4th positions, adjusting the truss rod forward to eliminate that results in the action being so high it defeats the purpose. It does have the PRS trem but I have it blocked against the body VH style as I don't use the trem and this arrangement noticebly improves the sustain and tone.

[Daniel Sorbera]

"they are not designed to have low action like a Jackson or a Les Paul."

That is the biggest pile of horse poo I've ever heard.

Take it to a diffrent guy if your not comfterable doing it yourself.

Edited December 18, 2005 by Godin SD

[Marzocchi705]

Like a Jackson or a Les Paul??

You can set up any guitar the way you like it, thats why its called a set up, cause you set it up for you. I bet if you looked at his personal guitars they will be set up like your prs is now, he's practicly saying 'this is the best set up because its how i do my own guitars'

Get a new tech.

[Mitzlflik]

Like a Jackson or a Les Paul??

You can set up any guitar the way you like it, thats why its called a set up, cause you set it up for you. I bet if you looked at his personal guitars they will be set up like your prs is now, he's practicly saying 'this is the best set up because its how i do my own guitars'

Get a new tech.

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What's really ironic about this is the fact that he said he plays a Les Paul with really low action but every PRS he has worked on (and he has done quite a lot) is exactly the same. I have suspected this guy is a moron for a long time, I just needed a little extra convincing and now I cringe at the thought of how many guitars he has screwed up because he has worked at a very prominent independent music store in my area for years. I rarely ever use a tech but have been wary of doing fret work myself (I have never been inclined to learn up 'til now). I will consult another pro or 3 to figure this issue out because I can't put my finger on what the problem is.

Edited December 18, 2005 by Mitzlflik

[soapbarstrat]

25" scale, 12" radius board : I can't imagine why your string action would need to be over 1/16" after *good* fret work.

It's guys like that, that make me sort of wish there was a test we had to take to be able to offer this work.

On the other hand, did he say there was anything about the guitar that wouldn't allow him to make the neck straight ? I mean something *specific* about this *particular* guitar. Not PRS guitars in general.

maybe there's an extreme amount of "drop-off" / "fallaway" at the end of the neck ? Hopefully he didn't "add" something like that with the job he did.

What's the action height at the 12th fret ?

[Mattia]

That's complete idiocy. Set your action up how YOU like it, regardless of what it's 'supposed' to be like.

[Guitarfrenzy]

First off, I thought PRS guitars had a 10" fingerboard radius. The flatter the radius, the lower you can get the action with all other things being equal. That's why Ibanez, Jackson, etc. can have less relief, lower action too. So I can see what he's trying to explain to you, but that doesn't mean you can't have good action on a PRS, that's just nonsense. I agree with the rest of the guys, you might need to take your guitar elsewhere to get the setup your wanting. Good luck.

[Mitzlflik]

This guy was empatic that this was a general quality exibited by every PRS he had seen (and he claims to work on approx. 6 a year). The neck appears to be very straight. My best quess is perhaps that at some time in the past the nut was slotted too low on the treble side. I cannot be sure but that is where the buzzing occurs. I have the action at 3/32" from the top of the 24th fret to the bottom of the low E. It is just a smidgeon lower than that at the 12th fret. I would prefer it to be at 1/16th" at the 24th on the low E with about half that on the high E side.

Incidentally does scale length have anything to do with low action? It seems that shredder style guitars tend to be fender scale but I prefer the slinkiness and tone of the PRS.

[Setch]

No, scale length has nothing to do with action.

The guy is clearly not a competant tech.

[Pr3Va1L]

? I tought scale DID have something to do with action?

Longer scale = More tension

More tension = Lower action?

at least it seems to work for me... with 11s i can put my action lower than with 9s

[soapbarstrat]

I've heard that too, but then you'll come across Les Pauls with pretty darn low action, so I don't really know what to say about that.

By the way, that scalloped neck I posted pics of in another thread is a 25" scale neck and I'm pretty sure I had that thing set up with action lower than 1/16", last time it was strung and set-up for recording.

[Scott Rosenberger]

PRS Guitars ARE 10" Radius unless its a Santana. You can get the action pretty low on them but there's a fine line between that action and buzz

[mikhailgtrski]

PRS Guitars ARE 10" Radius unless its a Santana. You can get the action pretty low on them but there's a fine line between that action and buzz

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Just one more reason why I'm building (well, modding/finishing/assembling Warmoth components anyway) my own... Plus I'd have to custom order a PRS to get it configured the way I like it. $$$$$

[rhoads56]

No, scale length has nothing to do with action.

The guy is clearly not a competant tech.

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Imagine.... a 3" scale length, 42 guage string, tuned to E.

Imagine.... a 3 MILE scale length, 42 guage, tuned to E.

Which one will 'move' more?

[Setch]

I imagine the 3". The 3 mile will snap well before you can get it tuned up, so it won't move at all

However, in a more real world example, the difference between a 25" scale, a 24.75" or a 25.5" is minimal. Yes, the longer scales will be tighter, *BUT* the string is also longer. Longer string = greater string divergence at centre. So the the 2 more or less cancel each other out.

Anyway, before this turns into any kind of physics-armwrestling, my point was that *any* guitar, with *any* scale length, can be set with a low action. Maybe a good tech can coax a 25.5" a bit lower, but equally, a good tech can also get a 24" scale low enough to satisfy most folks, provided their expectations aren't ludicrous.

[Jester700]

Plus, if you think more tension helps your action, go a gauge higher.

[Guitarfrenzy]

Plus, if you think more tension helps your action, go a gauge higher.

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But if you go with a higher guage you also have wider strings to contend with, so that's a factor also. Which is the biggest factor? We need further scientific testing.. haha

Also Soapbar made a point that I think is interesting. He mentioned that a Les Paul can have great action, which is very true because each of mine does, even with the shorter scale of a Gibson. What's different though is that your dealing with a true 12" radius which would effect how low your action can go. Since most Fenders have a 9-1/2" radius, it's hard to really compare scale length between the two, and the difference it makes. You know Robert we've both talked about how a perfectly flat fingerboard, no radius, was the best for ultra-low action with no buzz, but we both know it's a compromise to playing comfort. Most people find it hard to make chords on a flat fingerboard without any radius though. My theory from all this is that everything determines the action you can get. How?

Radius - Probably makes the biggest difference. I determined this by playing flat fingerboards that was setup correctly, and noticed you could get ultra-low action without buzz easily. My reasoning for this, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that when you pluck the string, it vibrates more in the direction back and forth from the way the string was first picked, thus if you have a flatter radius the string won't hit the fret since it's mostly vibrating parrallel with the fret. The more radius you have, the easier it is for the string to vibrate into the fret. I hope this makes some kind of sense.

Scale Length - In theory the longer the scale, the lower you can set your action all things being equal.

Fretjob - Of course this makes a huge difference, a level fretjob is a must for low action.

These are just some interesting things to discuss when bored.. haha

Anyway, a PRS has a 10" radius and 25" scale length, which might not be the most optimal combination. Since the radius is rather round, much like a Fender, but doesn't benefit from the longer 25-1/2" scale length. A Gibson has a shorter scale length also, but it makes up for it by having a flatter 12" radius. Just something to ponder on..

[Setch]

GF, try placing a 10" radius guage on a radiused 12" fretboard - the difference is *tiny*! IMO it's hardly likely to affect the action at all. The difference between a 12 and a 7.5, or a 12 and a 16 might be enough to effect things, but anything smaller than is the kind of margin of error introduced by a rocking sanding block during radiusing, or by levelling the frets.

I'd be prepared to bet if you were able to measure accuratelyenough, that a lot of Les Pauls out there actually have 10" radius frets, and a good few have up to 14".

**Edit** I drew it out on my computer - the difference bewteen a 10" radius and a 12" radius amounts to roughly 0.05mm in fretboard thickness at the 12th fret. I don't think many folks could be certain they didn't remove .05 more from the edges of their board than the centre during fretboard or fret levelling...

**Second edit!** Damn decimal points - the difference would be .5mm - quite a bit more. Quite possibly enough to make a difference, but not a big one.

[Southpa]

Scale Length - In theory the longer the scale, the lower you can set your action all things being equal

I don't quite agree with that one. The longer the string the more arc it makes when oscillating. So you would need more room above the frets to deal with the extra amplitude at the center point of the string.

Edited December 22, 2005 by Southpa

[Guitarfrenzy]

GF, try placing a 10" radius guage on a radiused 12" fretboard - the difference is *tiny*!  IMO it's hardly likely to affect the action at all.  The difference between a 12 and a 7.5, or a 12 and a 16 might be enough to effect things, but anything smaller than is the kind of margin of error introduced by a rocking sanding block during radiusing, or by levelling the frets.

I'd be prepared to bet if you were able to measure accuratelyenough,  that a lot of Les Pauls out there actually have 10" radius frets, and a good few have up to 14".

**Edit** I drew it out on my computer - the difference bewteen a 10" radius and a 12" radius amounts to roughly 0.05mm in fretboard thickness at the 12th fret.  I don't think many folks could be certain they didn't remove .05 more from the edges of their board than the centre during fretboard or fret levelling...

**Second edit!** Damn decimal points - the difference would be .5mm - quite a bit more.  Quite possibly enough to make a difference, but not a big one.

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While it's true that the difference in some radius aren't that much, it still does make a difference on your action, even if it's a small one. My bet is that the 14" Les Paul radius, with all other things being equal would let you have lower action than the 10" one, simply because the string theory I just mentioned earlier. Now there are a lot of other factors too, but from my experience with setup and studying great setups this is what I've determined is true, until someone can prove it wrong. I've also noticed you can get away with lower nut action too with flatter radius fingerboards like Ibanez has. Why doesn't everyone make flatter radius guitars though? Simply because it's not comfortable for some people when chording, that's why a compound radius 10" to 16" like Warmoth does might be the best solution for those people.

Scale Length - In theory the longer the scale, the lower you can set your action all things being equal

I don't quite agree with that one. The longer the string the more arc it makes when oscillating. So you would need more room above the frets to deal with the extra amplitude at the center point of the string. Read this

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Not exactly, you see there are other factors that come into this also. It may make it slightly more of an arc, but it has more tension at the same pitch than a guitar with a shorter scale length. Read this article from Stew Mac on how fret scale determines tone, where it mentions less tension, easier to play on Gibson's shorter scale length. You see with more tension (25-1/2" scale) you have less movement of the string to produce the same pitch on a shorter (24 -3/4" scale). Thus with less movement (vibration) the less chance the string will vibrate into the fret with lower action.

I'm still open to debate, it's really this kind of bouncing ideas off one another that you learn a lot.

Matt Vinson

[rhoads56]

ok ok ok....

for starters....

THE RADIUS IS IRRELEVANT TO ACTION, UNTIL YOU BEND A NOTE. Thats the ONLY time the radius matters, regarding the action of a guitar string.

[Pr3Va1L]

Well, I still say that with my 25" guitar with 0.11 strings I get really low action (just over 1/16 from top of fret to bottom of string)) without fret buzz and that with 9s i got a lot at the same height...

[Mitzlflik]

ok ok ok....

for starters....

THE RADIUS IS IRRELEVANT TO ACTION, UNTIL YOU BEND A NOTE. Thats the ONLY time the radius matters, regarding the action of a guitar string.

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Exactly...which ultimately leads to notes bottoming out with more intense string bending. For me scale length is more about tone and feel than action...I just found it curious that Ibanez, Charvel/Jackson, Kramer and Schecter *I think* exclusively build 25.5 scale guitars.

Incidentally I just ordered the basis for my parts guitar from Warmoth and will keep you posted as it progresses. I did opt for the gibson scale conversion neck to be partnered with a swamp ash body which I plan to rout and sculpt it quite extensively...in the end the lower half will look like an N4 while the top half and neck joint will have the look of an Ibanez S/Brian Moore. I think swamp ash sounds great but hope to warm it up a bit with the shorter scale length.

[marksound]

ok ok ok....

for starters....

THE RADIUS IS IRRELEVANT TO ACTION, UNTIL YOU BEND A NOTE. Thats the ONLY time the radius matters, regarding the action of a guitar string.

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::crickets::

I absolutely agree. And I'm speaking from a player's point of view.

[Mattia]

ok ok ok....

for starters....

THE RADIUS IS IRRELEVANT TO ACTION, UNTIL YOU BEND A NOTE. Thats the ONLY time the radius matters, regarding the action of a guitar string.

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Ok, no, for starters, THE RADIUS IS NOT IRELLEVANT TO ACTION

Your string spacing changes along the length of the string, it's tapered. It's only irellevant until you bend a note if you've got a properly calculated/set out compound radius (there are several articles on calculating the 'ideal', proper compound radius in one of GAL's Big Red Books, vol 3).

To make this nice and extreme: Take a section of pipe, any pipe. Take a straightedge. If you run it parallel to the central axis, it'll lie there, on the pipe, niiiice and flat, along the entire length. Now try angling that straighedge a little bit, so it's no longer parallel. So it's like a guitar string on a fixed radius board. What happens: it won't lie flat, without gaps.

Fact is, all guitar strings, when laid out normally, 'trace out' a conical path (compound radius) and not a cylindrical one (single radius). That's what a compound radius gives you: the arc of the fingerboard changes as you go up the neck. I said 'ideal' above, because, if you pick nut and bridge radius, you can calculate what the radius should be, theoretically, at each of the other points.

This does somewhat ignore the fact that different strings need slightly different action, and in theory probably different amounts of relief in an 'ideal' situation, but it at least gets the bit of the fingerboard that's *under each string* perfectly flat and straight. Which you will not get on a regular radius board, and that situation's worse (bigger gaps) as the radius gets tighter.

Edited December 23, 2005 by mattia