Steve Vai For Starters...?

[GregP]

Hey all,

I've always liked Steve Vai, but it's been many a year since I've really sat down and listened to him, and I've NEVER tried to play any of his songs or emulate his style.

But lately I've been feeling the urge to learn a bit about his style. Specifically, I'm curious about which modes he favours, and more importantly-- which chords he fits "under" those modes to complete the sound.

I figure, learning a song, or at least parts of a song, might be a better way to accomplish it rather than just reading a bunch of stuff-- I'm a hands-on "kinesthetic" learner for the most part, and I'll need to do some playing in order for it to register and 'click'.

Any song recommendations? My skill level with guitar is not as good as it should be for the amount of time I've been playing, but I'm comfortable on the instrument and not afraid of a challenge. I'll have to improvise ways around the whammy trickery (not having a whammy-equipped guitar), so songs that focus less on special effects and more on melodies would be cool. I also don't need to be able to play the song front-to-back, as long as there's a particular passage or two that aren't insanely difficult that I could get my feet wet with.

Any pointers?

The only album of his I own is Passion and Warfare (and the 2 DLR albums), but I'm willing to cough up some money for a CD if it's a good listener all-around, as well.

Cheers,

Greg

[Duff Beer Man]

the first vai song i learned was part of "The animal". 2:02-2:35 to be exact. Is basic enough, but also has a lot of cool techniques to it.

[redwhiteandthemaple]

Oh my GOSH

you're trying to play Steve Vai..

I mean.. that's not Impossible.. but DUDE... thats CRAZY

but then again, i'll chill.. (take a breather).. its not like you're trying to BE vai..

umm off my head..

the infamous.. For the love of God.. seems to me like THE easiest one he plays.

the Attitude song.. sorta

Bad Horsie.. Too Vai..

Animal..

i dunno too much about vai.. or as much as i know Satriani

Maybe you'd like to play Joe Sat.'s music? It's kinda similar in a sense...

but I don't get how you're gonna play Vai's stuff without tremolo.. So many harmonic dives, lifts, trem bends..

-IR

[GregP]

It's mainly to get a feel for the scales and chords he uses. I like that it's not 'minor pentatonic' like what I usually do, and yet it's something I can relate to.

At the end of the day, it's not the shreddiness I care about at all, although I certainly respect it. Even if I can play some of his parts at 1/2 or 1/4 speed, I'm cool with that because I'm still getting what I need to get out of it.

There are ways around some of the techniques. Just adapting them. For example, if he dive-bombs 4 whole tones, you just glissando down to it or do a string-mute "chick" in the space that the dive would occupy and then pick up the target note.

Or, I'll just skip the parts that have heavy FX.

----

Now, Satriani is another one. I actually saw him in concert for the "Flying in a Blue Dream" tour, so if he's got some fairly easy ones, I wouldn't mind getting into him either. I actually find that he's even MORE versatile with his choices of modes/scales, in fact, but that's part of the problem-- with the songs I know by Vai, he sticks to the same 2 or 3 modes... with Satch, it really depends on individual songs and I don't know which of them overlap with the scales that Vai chooses.

I'm open to recommendations, though.

Greg

[TenderSurrender]

the infamous.. For the love of God.. seems to me like THE easiest one he plays.

The first parts are easy to play, but getting them to sound right using the proper phrashing etc is quite hard. Also have you tried the other sections.. there certainly not "easy"

Greg, I definitly recommend "tender Surrender" if you like chords etc, it uses some very nice techniques as well in the solo, good fun to play

Theres also Bad horsie from "Alien love secrets" album, quite a heavy style song but awsome to play, (more fun if you can grab a bassist to play at the same time)

I recommend you buy the Alien love secrets and possible the Sex and religion album as well!

Good luck Greg!

~~ TS ~~

[psw]

Hey Greg P...always a kind word in my Sustainer Thread so let me return the favor with a little theory...ekkk

Poor Vai and Satch...so many can't get over the amazing technique to recognise their compositional skills. Same thing happened with Zappa...his humour and fantastic bands overwhelmed his compositional skill.

Now for the Pentatonic Pauper Modes and modal playing is the next obvious step. You may already be playing Modes and not even knowing it. For instance, you may play Fm pentatonic over A to create A major...if not, do so. Of course the minor pentatonic played over the Major chord is another form of modal pentatonic playing... It's all a matter of "hearing" these scales as being Amajor (not F#minor) or A blues or minor (not C major).

Other Modal players include people like Santana that favour Phrygian Mode. This is something like C major (Am for you pentatonic players) in the key of Eminor. Think Europa...the C gives it a spanish kind of flavour

But to play Modal...you have to start with the Major scale...or Ionian Mode.

so in C you'd be playing this family of notes...

C D E F G A B C

OK...so what about Vai (and satch often)...well they get a kind of dreamy sound by composing with the Lydian Mode...in C you'd get this family

C D E F# G A B C

So you get a raised 4th degree. Actually you can look at it as the G major scale! The F# is the odd one out.

This effects the compositional qualities in a unique way. The IV chord in C is Fmajor. But there is no F in the lydian mode. So a simple way is to avoid the IV chord and substitue the Major II. In C this would be Dmajor.

Now...most people who try modal playing don't get modal composition. This is critical to getting the "sound" that you are talking about, regardless of speed and technique. Frank Gambale has a Vid and book that has a good way of explaining it (Modes...no more mystery) as he actually shows you the chord families that go with the mode (but then he demonstates them with his crazy sweep picking so, kind of falling into the Vai trap also)

OK...so Vai is an admitted Lydian Addict. Try working out a 2 chord Vamp with C major and D major (kind of like J J Cale's cocaine in reverse). The important thing is to make it sound as if it is in the key of C and not G...very important. Now to play over it play G major scale notes but starting and resting on the C root note. Or for pentatonic players...play Aminor Pentatonic but add B and F#. You need to hear the F# as a "leading tone" to the 5th (the note G) and a part of this MajorII chord.

The other dreamy quality of the lydian mode is that the dominant 7th chord G7 is also not a part of the family (the 7th...F in the dominant Chord in Cmajor has a strong resolving sound and expectation to fall to the 3rd of the major chord...the note E in the C chord). So you have no Dominant chord.

The total sound of the Lydian mode should be floaty...there is no strong resolving Dominant 7th chord to resolve to the key chord (or tonic) and there is no IV chord. Very non bluesy (chords C, F and G7 or the I, IV and V7)

OK...here's another way to hear this modal sound in a more familiar context. This is not strictly Lydian but it may help you move towards that sound. Create a 12 bar sequence but with the chords Am, DMajor and Em. Now play C lydian over this. This will give you a kind of Robben Ford (or even BB King) blues sound...the F# gives the blues a kind of lift. You can play this over a Major Blues too.

Once you have this in your ear...playing the scale of G but in the key of Aminor...try and play in C.

Anyway...there is no end of talk about the modal playing but hearing it is the key. It can open the door to new chord sequences and melodies...phenomenal technique is optional....

Here's a post of the mode names and formulas... Modes List ...but this is really for reference.

So, the poor man's Vai sound in terms of Modes is the Lydian Mode...have a go!

Hope that helps and am able to answer questions and demonstrate the idea in audio if necessary...enjoy...pete

[psw]

Hope that helps and am able to answer questions and demonstrate the idea in audio if necessary...enjoy...pete

Ok...so I went away and played a minute of lydian mode stuff...hearing is believing, and it's really about the sound...so...

find the track Lydian Demo 1 by 4tune8...other tracks demo sustainer guitar

This is a vamp of C and D major...couldn't be easier. I am playing C lydian which is the G major family of notes. I think you will agree that the "riff" is definitely in C but C major wont work...you could get away with Am pentatonic but it doesn't really relate to the D chord at all. Interesting sound but it doesn't sound "out" as such, just different!!! (now my playing, that is another matter... )

Not a bad jam riff either, if I do say so myself...i'm not really a "Lydian Player" like Vai and Satch but you get the idea from this little improv...let me know if this helps or if the link doesn't work... pete

P.S. I refrained from turning on the sustainer, using the trem, tapping sweeping or any other Vai-isms...not that I'm any good at them...oh, and sorry for the fly in a jam jar tone!!!!

[redwhiteandthemaple]

the infamous.. For the love of God.. seems to me like THE easiest one he plays.

yea i know but relatively easy.. and overall I don't think there's almost no song anyone can fully play..

psw, I love your lecture. Makes it so clear.

I have a poster on my room with ALL the modes/scales shown on the fretboard..

I should study how those lydian, mixolydian, etc all work

I always hear people say if you think too much about modes, you get lost in making music, which is true, but like psw said, its important and you need the basics.. (including myself )

Hmm for Satch

I'd recommend

Starry Night

Always With Me, Always With You

Top Gun Theme (I find this song very fun and the solo is relatively easy)

Crush of Love

-IR

Edited February 10, 2006 by redwhiteandthemaple

[Gorecki]

Well I was going to go into a rant but psw did such a great job and left very little out. Bravo Dude!

Think psw was correct in saying Mr Vai is a composer. Then he makes the parts interesting to watch while being played...constantly challanging his own technique. Never seeming to be in a rut.

As perscribed, full understanding of model play will take you to the next step of being able to play over every chord with constant change. A simplest example would be playing a phrase in lydian ascending and then switching over to mixolydian to descend over the same chord. It provides huge amounts of creative room and melody get's really cool after some practice.

[verhoevenc]

each album he has a ballad on it. he took all of these and released "The 7th Song" because all the ballads were always track 7. therefore, you get all the ballad from all his cds up to that point on one cd. those seem to be some of his easier ones. (as people mentioned, "for the love of god" is on of them).

Chris

[Ki swordsman]

Die to live from alien love secrets(a very worth getting or downloading album of his)

Die to live is the most do-able vai song i've come across, it doesn't take too long depending on skill level to master the entire song,

for some awesome licks check out tender surrender off the same album

also - the animal has some quite easy(considering it's vai stuff) whole solo sections,

and of course for the love of god, which is probably the next entirely do-able song IMO

good luck

[Nitefly SA]

the main riff of "for the love of god" is fairly easy, but all the solos and stuff isnt, or maybe i just suck

[Pr3Va1L]

Poor Vai and Satch...so many can't get over the amazing technique to recognise their compositional skills.

Ok, i'll do as if I haven't heard that...

Anyways, only Vai song I can play (so it should be like... VERY easy) is called Sisters

[rokeros]

Oh btw, Steve Vai kinda reflects his lydian mode stuff on the songs "Feathers"

Heres the link of him havin sum fun:

http://www.korg.com/downloads/mp3/artist/FEATHERS.mp3

[psw]

That's a cool little tune...is that from an album, I don't think i've heard that before...

Sisters is easily my favorite Vai tune. A mixture of Hendrix and Wes octaves with a twist. The "riff" thing is easy, but so cool. Those octaves are played every possible way and the Hendrix little wing/castles style is obvious...but then there are pure Vai-isms like the sliding bass note melody with harmoncs as a counter played at the same time...genius. Passion and Warfare, probably his best Album. (I like Blue Powder too)

I also like his Hendrix tribute, "the boy from seatle". This, again has got that hendrix thing, but then the solo section is so Vai with his echo canon in three parts solo...so acurate in his playing to do that. Alian Love Secrets...a short album but sweet.

If you can catch the video it's pretty amazing. Besides painting himself siver and his peirced nipple phase, the guy and his band play the whole album note for note...but mimed. The weird thing is that it is note for note...every little detail...bizzar concept...obviouly he could have played it...hmmmm.

He does have a formula for some of his stuff, Feathers there is a typical example...a simple expressive melody, a few quirky variations then hit the finish with a supersonic speed thing...there it is his tapping thing.

Many suggest "for the love of god" is fairly simple as it's melody is quite approachable, and you can jam along with it, but it would take an alwful lot of work to get that hyper speed sweep section right towards the end...it just builds and builds...and even if you do, could you play it with that much expression?

You can only take so much Vai though. Like the engineer says in ALS.."ok, ok, shut up, you can play already, sheeesh..." Seeing him live is like seeing a circuis act...you can hardly believe that he's doing it, he's not even looking half the time. Obviously he enjoys himself and if you've got the technique you might as well flaunt it, but there's only so much one can take of Mr Vai...lol.

Oh...I got to say I hate Sex and Religion...dropped the ball on that one for me I'm afraid...but I know some who like it... pete

[GregP]

Thanks for the awesome reply, Pete, and thanks to everyone else, too. The real key for me isn't understanding the modes, but as Pete correctly identified, relating them to the underlying chords. I knew already that a Mode is just a major scale starting and resolving on a different note than its original (ie. when treated as the Major scale) root; however, that never helped me to figure out what chords to put underneath!

That post makes a lot of sense, and I'll have to sit around with it (and a guitar) for a little while to start getting a feel for it all. Thanks a lot, though, that's one of the clearest explanations I've seen in a while. Enough theory to help me out (some who try don't put ENOUGH theory, which can be a problem with my way of learning) but not so much that it's overwhelming. Great!

PS, Top Gun theme was Steve Stevens, no?

Greg

[redwhiteandthemaple]

PS, Top Gun theme was Steve Stevens, no?

friggin LimeWire!!! yes it is.. it is.. steve stevens.. and harold faltermeyer..

sry for the misinform. (this happens to me sooo many times.. )

Good luck.!

-IR

[Curtis P]

I found most of Jiboom to be pretty simple, although i cannot play all of it, I am still working on it, its a simple riff, with some pinch harmonics, although he uses trem, i just used wah to kinda get the sound (still off, but, close enough for this struggling guitarist)

Curtis

[VanKirk]

Sounds like I'm on the same page as you Greg. It's hard to use some of these other scales/modes and get the feel for them when I've over-used pentatonic minor so much in a blues context.

I've been toying around with Satch's music such as Mystical Potatohead Groove Thing, Always with me Always with You, Why & Summer Song.

Lately I've been playing some Santana like Europa & Samba Pa Ti.

These songs I can still get into the groove with & yet open my playing up a lil at a time without totally losing it.

It's hard for me to jump right into another style so I just kinda have to get my feet wet first.

It's important for me to understand the feel as well as technique otherwise I feel like I'm just playing note for note.

[Gorecki]

Something else that may be more helpful in understand modes is practice in hearing them.

If you sit down and play along with a single note, let's say good ole middle C, walk up and down each mode using C as home. Make up melody as you go. Not flailing guitar solo's, just simple melody.

IE. C major (tonic), C minor (dorian / Bb major), C minor (phrygian, Ab/G# major) and so on and you'll begin to hear the tonal qualities of these modes with practice.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Gorecki

[GregP]

Cheers for the continued responses,

I was mucking about a bit last night in my sequencer, and meeting with relative success using Pete's "sort of Lydian" configuration:

Chords C (and Suspended variations), D (with suspensions), and Em. Then C Lydian played over top, which has most of the same notes in common with what I'm already familiar with. The big differences were the B and the F# (as mentioned).

Strangely, though, I always found it a bit awkward to try resolving anything on the C. It seemed out of place to my ears still, and I almost never started or ended any phrases on the C.

I'll post my results sometime within the next few days, and then maybe people will have a few more pointers for me. I have virtually no 'shred' technique, so I'm not worried about tips for technical prowess, just to see if I'm getting the hang of it or not.

Greg

[psw]

I just saw a "Guitar Techniques" (new edition of english mag with cd...good stuff) in the newsagent and they have a little thing on Vai and the lydian Mode.

One thing they mentioned was a couple of tunes in the lydian mode. The two I remember were "sarah" by fleetwood mac and "man on the moon" by REM...probably know those ones.

The lydian mode gives a kind of wistful feel to these melodies.

With modes though, a lot of them are theoretical. Some are familiar like ionian is simply the major scale and dorian the minor. There is a use for them but modal composition is fairly rare. You hardly ever really hear many modal pop tunes and some can be really contrived, so beware when you are composing with any scale or formula...a good melody is the thing no matter what the mode...if the tune calls for a wistful, unresolved kind of melody, go lydian for sure!!!

In Jazz, the best album is probably Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" which really started that modal flavoured cool jazz thing. This is the best selling Jazz album of all time and is a real work of art...very accessable and playable. What's noticable that even here, players like coltrane had real trouble getting the modal thing down, often reverting to more familiar teritory, even though they were at the height of there powers at this point (early '60's) and could easily play over any changes...improvising over fairly static changes really was new territory.

Anyway...have fun and make good music... pete