Heavy Sound

[Daniel Sorbera]

What woods would you recomend to give a heavy metal guitar tone? Would mahogany back maple cap be good? What about alder?

I havn't built any metal guitars so I don't know whats the norm.

[SwedishLuthier]

EMG pickups. Then the wood doesn’t matter anymore.

[MzI]

Mahogany, mahogany with maple top, solid maple, if you use alder dont use emg pickups the sound is incredibly thin, a lighter piece of purple heart works quite well with duncan distortion pickups.

For necks, either maple or mahogany works, I personally like to use maple because it adds brightness to the tone when down tuning

Fretboards, that really doesnt matter much generally rosewood and ebony.

Pickup selection is highly important too, generally youll want higher output pickups such as actives or duncan jb, distortion, full shred, etc. Gibson also has good metal pickups like 500t and dirtyfingers. And I have no clue about dimarzios never played em. Ones you want to stay away from are the lower output pickups like 59s and pafs. Also you can never go wrong with a duncan jazz in the neck for clean tones.

MzI

[ihocky2]

You can use either mahoganny or alder. I know Jackson uses alder body with maple tops, and they are almost strickly played by metal bands. I know a lot of shredders used to play them before Fender bought them out. ESP uses mahoganny and alder depending on the model. Ibanez uses both, but seems to lean more towards alder. BC Rich tends to go with mainly mahoganny. Your still going to have to decide if you want the wamer tone of mahoganny or the crisper tone of alder, but by using high output pickups you can get that real heavy distortion. Heck look at Ywngie, he plays on a Strat, but uses high output humbuckers.

[GregP]

Harummm? I don't follow Yngwie at ALL, and I know that the above isn't true. He values his vintage strats and uses single-coil pickups in those. His stage and studio guitars use humbucking single-coil replacements (for hum cancellation and SLIGHTLY higher output) but he prefers medium-output pickups that allow him to maintain clarity and articulation, which are more important than output.

In general, high-output pickups ARE better for metal, though, particularly depending on the amp they're in front of. Some amps are more easily driven than others, though, so it's not strictly "necessary." Lots of classic metal has been made with single-coil low-output pickups, and lots of modern metal continues to be made with medium-output humbuckers. I personally (and only personally) continue to believe that a full spectrum of sound is important to tone, and I don't like the particular range you get from high-output pickups. However, I am also not a metal-meister.

Greg

[Mickguard]

What woods would you recomend to give a heavy metal guitar tone?

Aren't all those shredder guitars made of basswood?

Anyway, I get the feeling the heavy metal sound has more to do with a high-watt transistor amp and a bunch of pedals than with the guitar wood.

[mikhailgtrski]

Harummm? I don't follow Yngwie at ALL, and I know that the above isn't true. He values his vintage strats and uses single-coil pickups in those. His stage and studio guitars use humbucking single-coil replacements (for hum cancellation and SLIGHTLY higher output) but he prefers medium-output pickups that allow him to maintain clarity and articulation, which are more important than output.

+1

IIRC he uses -slightly- higher output stacked single-coils, plus a boost pedal to push the front end of his Marshalls.

Any good-sounding guitar can sound "good" for metal... lots of metalheads play PRS singlecuts, so I'd stick with that formula. Of course, the more gain you add the less the guitar plays into the equation.

[spazzyone]

i play sepultura,overkill,pantera,slayer just about everyday

and i can promise you body wood makes almost no differance

i have many guitars almost all are "super strats"

two mahogony,one basswood,one alder,one ash

and one maple...yes i said maple and yes it weighs a ton

the maple is bright the mahogony is kinda of mid rangey

i dont know how to describe the ash other than woody sounding

the rest are kinda in between and sound almost the same

the big differances are my pickups

Duncan jb's can get heavy as hell. lots of harmonics

and clean when you roll the volume back

a Dimarzio double whammy. lots of mids and even more with the jackson mid boost

i use in this one. i can not get a thrash sound with this setup

but its creamy as hell in my B.C Rich

ive never tried Emg's but look at all the players who use them

and get very heavy sounds

therefore my two cents says its the pickups not the wood

hot pickups = hotter sounds

medium output = softer

and i am constantly changing pickups from one guitar to another

trying to get "my own sound"

[Maiden69]

I can't believe that to this day, people still say that wood have nothing to do in the sound of a guitar. Especially the "use EMG only, wood doesn't matter" generation.

All my guitars have EMG's on them, and all are constructed from different type woods and all of them sound different.

Godin, all depends on the kind of sound you want to get from the guitar. Metal can be defined tonaly in so many different ways. As a rule mahogany-maple will give you a tight sound, but I don't think that you can get it using figured maple. Since it is a lot softer than hard maple is. This is the combination on Zakk's guitars. And I like the tightness of the sound, ...but a lot of that comes from the amps too!!! Out of all my guitars I haven't got the tone I'm looking for, I'm waiting to finish my SG since I think that the wood combo on it will be better than the other ones.

[GregP]

Oh, I would never say the wood doesn't change the sound of the guitar, but I DO think that it's only one of the many factors, especially with crushingly high gain. I mean, Basswood is the "vanilla" of solidbody guitar woods, and most "metal" guitars are made with basswood as mentioned earlier in the thread.

I mean, the pickups and the amp's level of gain is MORE important than the choice of wood, IMO, but that doesn't mean I would say that the wood is inconsequential. It's ironic that you use Zakk Wylde as an example, though, because he's the very player who coined the now-famous "put EMG's on a piece of plywood and they'll sound good" phrase.

In short: if you like to work basswood, give'er.

Greg

[Drak]

Go ask Neil Moser at his site, he builds almost nothing but METAL guitars.

And I would agree that while wood does indeed play a part in the sound, Metal music will rely LESS (as percentages go) on what wood is used as opposed to pedals, amps, pickups, etc., it is, let us say, an element to be sure, but not a KEY element.

I would be looking at thin necks, hard finishes (Poly), probably 24 fret Ebony boards with fat (maybe SS) frets, a lot of other considerations come to mind as playing a much more important part of a Metal guitar than body wood selection, to be sure, everything out there has been used in Metal guitars, and they all work, just depends...

So build it more with the Metal playability aspect in mind than body woods.

PS, I have read on Moser's site that he considers the NECK wood as FAR more important than the body wood, so go figure, hehehe...

And hell, there are so many different KINDS of Metal out there...Maple for shredders, Mahogony for doom and gloom detuned, the list is endless, so at the end of the road..., just build it solidly with common sense, and it will work out fine.

Personally, I would consider Walnut as a really good wood for Metal, because it's hard enough to take blows without denting easily, isn't overtly dark like mahogony or bright like Maple, finishes pretty easily, it's a good selection for Metal I think...all my Shark V's are Walnut because of the reasons I just mentioned, but I haven't finished one to tell you true yet.

Cherry would share most of the attributes I just mentioned about Walnut, but will be brighter, maybe thinner, that's why I like Walnut, but there's no mass builder out there using it due to the cost of Walnut.

[SwedishLuthier]

I can't believe that to this day, people still say that wood have nothing to do in the sound of a guitar. Especially the "use EMG only, wood doesn't matter" generation.

Maiden, you might have missed the smiley at the end. It was meant be provocative.

Nevertheless it is my strict opinion that if you use active pickups like EMGs the choice of wood DOES become less important for the sound in the finished instrument compared to using passive pickups. C’mon, the pickups are the most tone-contributing part on an electric guitar whatever pickups you use, period.

[Daniel Sorbera]

Thanks for the input so far guys. Basicly this guys dream tone is this band. link

They use EMG pickups with Krank amps.

He came over to my house yesterday and LOVED the tone/looks of the wenge guitar. He decided he can't just have one. So we're building him two guitars. One with a wenge back and flamed (carved) maple cap stained orange, The other painted gloss black. For the black guitar we we're either going with mahogany/none figured maple combo.

I would be looking at thin necks, hard finishes (Poly), probably 24 fret Ebony boards with fat (maybe SS) frets, a lot of other considerations come to mind as playing a much more important part of a Metal guitar than body wood selection, to be sure, everything out there has been used in Metal guitars, and they all work, just depends...

So build it more with the Metal playability aspect in mind than body woods.

I totally agree with that. We brainstormed yesterday and he showed me exatly what he liked/disliked about diffrent guitars.

Earlier today I found what wood we will be using so the building will start soon. We look to be done by christmas-ish time.

BTW does anyone have a link for a good double action truss rod thats not as deep as a hot rod? He wants a nice thin neck but the hot rod doesn't leave much wood behind it when carving thin so I'm looking for alternatives.

Edited August 6, 2006 by Godin SD

[spazzyone]

anybody that thinks i dont unerstand that wood makes

a differance did not read what i said

i understand what tone woods are

but in metal it "does not matter" as much

i have a line6 spider 2x12 here at home

and if i put a Duncan jb in my Rich and spider on its insane channel

it just rips thrash

and yet the dimarzio makes you want to soften the gain

and take advantage of that smooth silky creamy sustain from the wood

so it is the wood that its made from. yet i dont hear it.......

till i change my pickups. i came to this conclusion after "many" swaps

i would never take the dimarzio out of this guitar

as i also like to play April Wine... Nazareth and early Judas Preist

and i dont get this tone in "High Gain Mode" with the JB

but on its its clean to crunch setting with the dimarzio its

very soulfull. makes me want to bend the living daylights out of a note

and feel the floor move

its like the differance in making love and f@#$ing

one is passionate love the other is getting my nut on with an iron fist

[thegarehanman]

Godin, consider using a single action style truss rod. You can really push the limit as thickness goes with this, also, you can leave a very small amount of wood behind the rod(maybe as little as 1/16" asuming you use a bullnose, not flat router bit) because it puts no pressure on the back of the neck. The neck on the baby guitar was 5/8" total thickness and that was with 1/8" behind the rod. Also, try to keep your fretboard stock as thin as feasably possible, this gives you more room to play with when figuring the thickness of the neck wood.

If you're dead set on a double action rod(which is understandable, I much prefer them), then try out lmii's dual action rod. I believe it's 1/16" less than stewmac's. I use a bullnose bit in my router table and then touch up where the two blocks sit with a flat bit in my dremel. My GOTM guitar had an lmii rod in it and 3/4" overall neck thickness. No problems to speak of after months of playing and banging around.

peace,

russ

[GregP]

@ spazzy.

I can't even tell what you said. <chuckle> Wood = good, pickups = more important. I think.

[Daniel Sorbera]

Since we're sorta talking about understandin spazzy I'll ask this question real quick.

Why is it when I read your posts there all squished like your hitting enter alot? Are you running super low res or something? Or do you just hit enter alot? Because it's really annoying and very hard to read. You don't have to hit enter at all. Just keep typing and the forum software will carry you over to the next line.

[crafty]

If he likes the EMG tone, I'd use an 81/60 combo in the mahogany/maple guitar, and an 85/60A combo in the wenge/maple guitar. The guitars will sound slightly different, but I think the 85/60A in the guitar with the brighter, harder woods will balance the highs better.

[Maiden69]

I wouln't suggest the 81-60 in a mahogany guitar for metal, alto this is what James have on his guitars, this is what i have on my strat and it sounds too low, even for my taste, the only time I can get a nice sound is with my GNX1, because I can equalize the sound to suit my taste, but I played the guitar on a Marshall DSL100 and a 1960A cab in Hyunsus house and the sound was muddy to say the least... I think that adding the maple cap might had changed the sound a bit, but not too much.

Then again, if James gets a great sound maybe I'm doing something wrong.

[spazzyone]

its pretty simple

after twenty plus years of playing i know what sounds like what

i've spent a lot of money finding this out the hard way

would a single coil sound strat sound like a humbucker les paul

i doubt it

but crank the gain into dimeland... would a single coil cut it

i dont think so

now drop the single into the paul would it pass... not at 7kohms

but put a humbucker in a strat he would be closer to the sound he's after

more like 11k or more and then he is getting closer right . 7k would not drive the pre amp as hard

can ash or mahogony add ohms? or henry's or Q's no "no i i have no clue what Q is"

but copper cant add to the to natural sustain of wood right?

but the gain control will add plenty of sustian to anything

do you have a single coil? and humbucker you can compare to?

i do and i can tell the change in noise and sustain

ive custom wound my own hum and its 16.7k on my fluke sm77

does my stock ibanez get this hot.....no.

but does it add noise to where i have to roll the volume back

untill i solo or rip with no stops.... yes.. yes it does

but when i do open up look out its nasty

can i get this sound with a single or mild humbucker.. not without some kinda boost

and its still not as dark or "muddy"

so the pickup adds tons when playing "Metal"

not as much as wood when playing clean

my point

Eric Johnson can tell the differance in the wood

if i put Emg's in a puddle of of pee

could Kerry King......possibly not

[Daniel Sorbera]

Okay off topic long enough. Lets get back to talking about the best wood/pickup combos for metal insted of who can tell the diffrence in tone of pickups and wood etc.

Okay he said one of his friends put a 85 in the bridge and an 81 in the neck. This intriged both of us. I thought the 81 was a lead pickup.

Any thoughts on this setup?

Edited August 7, 2006 by Godin SD

[MzI]

Ive run 81s in both positions in an alder guitar, and an 81b 60n in a solid maple guitar. The 60 worked great in the maple evens it out a bit. 81s in alder suck for the neck position and are kinda thin in the bridge it would probably be good with an 85 in the bridge though.

MzI

Edited August 7, 2006 by MzI

[crafty]

Okay off topic long enough. Lets get back to talking about the best wood/pickup combos for metal insted of who can tell the diffrence in tone of pickups and wood etc.

Okay he said one of his friends put a 85 in the bridge and an 81 in the neck. This intriged both of us. I thought the 81 was a lead pickup.

Any thoughts on this setup?

Hook it up and check it out. The nice thing about EMGs is that they pop in and out pretty quickly if you want to experiment a little with them. Also, you might want to look over some of their accessory circuits. You can really dial things in with the RPC and EXG controls.

[GodBlessTexas]

Okay off topic long enough. Lets get back to talking about the best wood/pickup combos for metal insted of who can tell the diffrence in tone of pickups and wood etc.

Okay he said one of his friends put a 85 in the bridge and an 81 in the neck. This intriged both of us. I thought the 81 was a lead pickup.

Any thoughts on this setup?

This is what I have in my S470DXQM. I like it a lot. The 81 can be harsh in the bridge, but is a little more rounded in the neck without being as fat. The 85 in the neck can be overly fat, but is brighter without being harsh in bridge.

Also, a lot of those MA metal bands (Killswitch Engage, As I Lay Dying, Shadows Fall, etc.) are using their guitars w/ EMG's into Maxon OD9's and then into Krank Amps. Both of the guitarists for As I Lay Dying are using this setup and their guitars are mahogany Les Pauls. As others have pointed out, when you're playing with all that in the signal chain, body wood doesn't matter that much. It's not completely irrelevant, but it's taking a back seat to an overly driven signal. If you're not trying to get earth crushing gain, then wood matters more.

If it were me, I'd go mahogany with maple cap or just mahogany. All of my Ibanez guitars fall into one of those two (My S series are all mahogany, and my RG is a mahogany body).

GBT

[Odin]

Heck look at Ywngie, he plays on a Strat, but uses high output humbuckers.

He uses low output singlecols.