rhoads56 Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Well, i know how they do the colours in the body, so i know whats involved. I can assure you, it is very very expensive, especially compared to a "basswood" body. The machining of the material is much slower so it takes up more CNC time. Sure, the engineering of the body shape is not unique (screw holes etc are different diameters meaning all new programs), but the thousands of man hours put in to achieve this special finish, test it under extreme conditions, and then replicate it hundreds of times over, AND stand behind your product in every country in the world, DOES cost money. And its not some joe bloggs doing the testing, its engineers, designers, etc on big salaries. The assemblers need to be retrained. The buffing team need to do things differently. The marketing team needs to research and modify ads. The case candy is different, the distros need to be informed, etc etc etc. This ALL costs more money. No mass production company will ever produce one off's at the same price as the standard models, its is ridiculous to even consider it. The raw materials for this guitar woudl effectively DOUBLE the entire cost of building the complete guitar, REGARDLESS of other 'man hour' costs. Why should Ibanez NOT make a killing on this? Why should they make excuses for earning a living? The fact that Ibanez is the size it is, and have the followers they do, means they can do whatever they like, and price it however they see fit. Same goes for all the majors. Thats their right, and they have damn well earnt it. You, the consumer can disagree all you like, but they WILL sell these guitars. PS i think its funny that a BCRich or Ibanez with a plastic body is "crap", yet a 'vintage' Dan Armstrong "sounds good". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 you make alot of good points,perry...and i do agree thay can charge what they wish...but i think in reality they are probablg pricing these up to make them collectible. they could make a whole bunch of them and sell them for $1500 a piece and make a major killing...more so than just a few at $6000...but if you flood the market,the collectibility goes down. i suspect this guitar is meant to buy and put in a glass case,then in 50 years it is super collectable...so in that way,it is worth the money. as a player's guitar...it is not..but i would never buy a regular jem either...not for a bolt on basswood guitar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydrogeoman Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Well, i know how they do the colours in the body, so i know whats involved. I can assure you, it is very very expensive, especially compared to a "basswood" body. The machining of the material is much slower so it takes up more CNC time. Sure, the engineering of the body shape is not unique (screw holes etc are different diameters meaning all new programs), but the thousands of man hours put in to achieve this special finish, test it under extreme conditions, and then replicate it hundreds of times over, AND stand behind your product in every country in the world, DOES cost money. And its not some joe bloggs doing the testing, its engineers, designers, etc on big salaries. The assemblers need to be retrained. The buffing team need to do things differently. The marketing team needs to research and modify ads. The case candy is different, the distros need to be informed, etc etc etc. This ALL costs more money. No mass production company will ever produce one off's at the same price as the standard models, its is ridiculous to even consider it. The raw materials for this guitar woudl effectively DOUBLE the entire cost of building the complete guitar, REGARDLESS of other 'man hour' costs. Why should Ibanez NOT make a killing on this? Why should they make excuses for earning a living? The fact that Ibanez is the size it is, and have the followers they do, means they can do whatever they like, and price it however they see fit. Same goes for all the majors. Thats their right, and they have damn well earnt it. You, the consumer can disagree all you like, but they WILL sell these guitars. PS i think its funny that a BCRich or Ibanez with a plastic body is "crap", yet a 'vintage' Dan Armstrong "sounds good". Dang Perry, finally, out of the thousand or so posts I have read of yours (and argued with you) I agree with you 100% on this one I suspect, that at this price point, Ibanez will not make a killing or even much of a profit. Mass appeal was not the idea behind the guitar - it is a marketing tool, not a product to make profit. Cheers Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 I suspect, that at this price point, Ibanez will not make a killing or even much of a profit. Mass appeal was not the idea behind the guitar - it is a marketing tool, not a product to make profit. Cheers Greg Exactly. You know what, sometimes a company just does something, to gain recognition, rather than dollars. Like car manufacturers. The Toyota Prius is a loss, and always was planned to be, but people see Toyota as leading the way in alternative fuel technology, and feel warm and fuzzy buying a fuel guzzling Land Cruiser instead. Pontiac GTO is another example of a 'hero' for a brand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postal Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 Naturally I laugh at the cheapo acrylic guitars I see in the local shops. I wouldnt waste my time, and it's been done to death. This is a very new spin, and added an element that hasnt been done. This is what "innovation" IS. The coloring sure appears 3d to me. It probably was cast as a large piece which was cut to body blank sizes. Your ABS and Nitro bindings are done the same way. Have you ever seen ivoroid binding sheet .060 thick 2 ft by 3 ft? I have... That sheet came from a thick block the manufacturer slices to whatever thickness you tell them to. Gotta buy the entire block though. Anyone interested in trying to find plastics like this may want to check with "masecraft supply". They can probably do it, but it wouldnt be cheap. They may currently have plastics in their inventory you may like, and next time they cast that type, could sell you a body blank sized chunk. Note I dont work for them or get any profit out of this, just know about them, and have a catalog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davee5 Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 I have to patently disagree that this is "innovation." This is called "iteration." There is nominal, nominal, nomial overall change to the whole product, in fact for almost EVERY guitar there is nominal "innovation" only in the definition of innovation as the introduction of something new. Yet most of theinnovation in this JEM is the introduction of something new solely to the world of guitars. It is hardly a breakthrough technology, hard to manufacture or requiring any engineering time to develop. Other guitar "innovations" may also be good ideas, and well introduced, but about the only real innovation as a breakthrough technology (a "discontinuous innovation" if we are nitpicking) is the introduction of the electric guitar into a world of acoustics. Everything else has been minor to significant improvements on existing designs or ideas. Vaulted fretboard? Not innovative. Flat headstock instead of 15 degree angled headstock? Maaaaybe innovative. Make your own list. The thing is, luthiery is a traditional craft. Though ut's not one I claim to understand fully, it's like any traditional craft or field in its resistance to change that breaks with the tradition. Even thing we would consider drastic are minor changes to the casual observer without any guitar know-how. Moving the soundhole on an acoustic lacks any sort of significant impact to the overall structure and approach, to the macroscopic design of the instrument to anything more than a mental footnote. But to us who know what a guitar "should" look like, it's a revolution and you can build and entire brand around it. (*cough* MacPherson *cough*) Now to most musicians and builders, this is heresy (and I expect to hear about it), but to a world which is rapidly valuing "innovation" as a highly valued skillset and ability, we are in a field utterly devoid of real innovations. In fact, I might argue it's almost impossible to innovate in an environment where where many people are trying to build crappy capacitors just like they did 40 years ago in order to replicate a sound almost a half-century old. It's simply not the right adjective to bring into the wolrd of luthiery. Perry, I respect the hell out of your work but I have to disagree with a few of your points. Really, all of your points about manufacture and engineering. While putting in the colors is indeed "very very expensive" in comparison to basswood, it is not at all cost prohibitive, or even that challenging. Acrylic, like wood, can be run almost at a full-rapid if you have sharp tooling and a fast spindle, so your machinig time argument is patently false (though acrylic does craze if you're not careful, so some real machining expertise is useful). All the holes can be drilled the same size, they just need to be tapped by hand afterwards to fit machine screws, which is may an hour for a full acrylic body (it ain't Ti). Even if the diameters were different, that's maaaybe 2 hours to modify the programs with those few cycles, or maybe 5 minutes to change the tools in the changer. Thousands of manhours is a ridiculous assertion. A standard shop rate in the US is $60/hour, so even if each of these takes 1,000 hrs they should cost $50k, so that's a bit of an exaggeration. I really doubt they test the crap out of these things in extreme conditions as acrylic bodies are standard enough that they don't need destructive testing, and no one is going to drive this thing or otherwise bet their life on it in order to necessitate serious lab work. The retraining for polishing is barely different from paint as it's bascially the same grits, same swirl remover, a little more buffing, and maybe a flame pass. Or maybe you just outsource it and pay the shop $5000 for the whole batch. If the assemblers need to be retrained, then I would never guy an Ibanez because their assemblers are idiots. A fully tapped, machined, clear guitar would be easy as hell to machine, considerably more so than a wooden one covered in paint. Etc. Etc. The bottom line for me is this: these are NOT a difficult thing to create for a company in the business of manufacturing CNC-machined guitars. Anyone here who claims these are killing some engineer to mfg expert doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. Now, THAT being said: yes, charger whatever the hell you want for it. It's a free market, it is still effectivley a one-off, it'a collector's item, it's being heavily marketed, they can make a killing, yes yes yes yes yes that's all true. In fact I support all of it. It's not the kind of BS I usually go for (my BS is more wood flavored, and it is BS, and I do like it, so we all have our own thing), but I have no issues with it. I am ONLY contending that those here who make vague conjectures about how difficult this must be to create don't do this stuff for a living. Furthermore, I DO NOT know the EXACT process they use, and I suspect no one here does. But I do know how it COULD be made, and it's not rocket science, or even expensive-science-requiring-R&D. I suspect that Ibanez makes it similarly to my concepts, or maybe even with more ingenuity for a better product or a cheaper product which is easy to make as well. Sell it for what you want. Hell, it's not even remotely the most ridiculous, or over-hyped, or hideously-expensive-for-what-you-get guitar around! But STOP claiming this is some innovative, hard to make product. It's just wrong. I type too much when I get rankled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 Ok, Before we start, im not 'having a go', being agressive, looking to piss anyone off, or anything else, etc. Im in a rush, so read it like that... While putting in the colors is indeed "very very expensive" in comparison to basswood, it is not at all cost prohibitive, or even that challenging. It doesnt need to be cost prohibitive, it just needs to be DIFFERENT. They are upsetting a production line to build these guitars, and you will pay extra for that. Acrylic, like wood, can be run almost at a full-rapid if you have sharp tooling and a fast spindle, so your machinig time argument is patently false (though acrylic does craze if you're not careful, so some real machining expertise is useful). All the holes can be drilled the same size, they just need to be tapped by hand afterwards to fit machine screws, which is may an hour for a full acrylic body (it ain't Ti). Even if the diameters were different, that's maaaybe 2 hours to modify the programs with those few cycles, or maybe 5 minutes to change the tools in the changer. It just needs to be DIFFERENT. They are upsetting a production line to build these guitars, and you will pay extra for that. Thousands of manhours is a ridiculous assertion. A standard shop rate in the US is $60/hour, so even if each of these takes 1,000 hrs they should cost $50k, so that's a bit of an exaggeration. 1000 man hours, is 25 men, working for ONE WEEK (40 hours). Can you not see that it would be quite feasable to achieve 1000 hours easily? How many $100k/pa designers sat around throwing ideas out there, before this was decided on? How many +$100k/pa executives stopped in to look at the progress (or even debated the merits of the project)? How many $75k/pa engineers worked on the technique to perfect the process, before the first body was cut? How many cnc programmers, web guys, marketting guys (all +$60k/pa?) sat around working on this? How many prototypes were cut, polished and destroyed, for 'practise'? I really doubt they test the crap out of these things in extreme conditions as acrylic bodies are standard enough that they don't need destructive testing, and no one is going to drive this thing or otherwise bet their life on it in order to necessitate serious lab work. This is NOT acrylic purchased from you local store. It is molded specifically for a purpose, to achieve this 'look'. With the problems Ibanez have faced with some of their ideas, i dont doubt for a second, they did extensive testing. No-one likes a product that is easily scratched/chipped/dulled, etc etc. Look at the history of the satch chrome boys for an example of releasing a product without proper testing. The retraining for polishing is barely different from paint as it's bascially the same grits, same swirl remover, a little more buffing, and maybe a flame pass. "Basically" the same ISNT the same. You have a guy polishing guitars, who does a great job, because he does it day in, day out, and thats ALL he does. Anyone who has polished a guitar knows its a long process, that can only be reduced in time through experience. I was spending four hours polishing a guitar 2 years ago. I have got it down to 45 minutes TOPS, with a better shine, through practise. Changing products (nitro/poly/acrylic/metal) totally changes the way you work with it. There is no room for mistakes, you must do it well and quickly. Or maybe you just outsource it and pay the shop $5000 for the whole batch. If the assemblers need to be retrained, then I would never guy an Ibanez because their assemblers are idiots. A fully tapped, machined, clear guitar would be easy as hell to machine, considerably more so than a wooden one covered in paint. Etc. Etc. You ever drilled a hole in acrylic, and inserted a screw?? Trust me, is not as easy as you think, ESPECIALLY on a big scale, AND taking into account it could be any one of a dozen guys who assemble the thing, as part of their 'mundane day job'.. The bottom line for me is this: these are NOT a difficult thing to create for a company in the business of manufacturing CNC-machined guitars. Anyone here who claims these are killing some engineer to mfg expert doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. No-one said that, we just said it was MORE DIFFICULT AND A PAIN IN THE BUTT for a company to do this. You'll pay for that trouble. General comment: Why is it companies who have 'made it' face the harshest critiscm when they release something 'different', to cater for a select group of people, who are more than willing to pay the going rate (or more)? Why is that?? Furthermore, when they DONT release something wild/wierd/silly, why do they get accused of being 'bland'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davee5 Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 While I might disagree with the impact of al the DIFFERENT's you mention, I agree to all your points. I do have one question, though. Do you really think Ibanez, or even Gibson or Fender, is a company chock-full of $100k/year positions? I'd say maybe the CEO and board memebers are in that place, but their marketing guys? Their top engineers? I was always under the impression that even the big guys are not HUGE companies full of high paying jobs, the margins and volumes just aren't there. Sure, the top dogs will get theirs, but I personally doubt, VERY STRONGLY that even the top Ibanez "designer" (conceiving of and then modeling a monkey grip isn't all that tough) is making that kind of scratch. Ibanez (USA) is based out of Pennsylvania, where if you are making $100k annually you are LOADED. Furthermore if their design is being done in Japan by parent company Hoshino Gakki it's even cheaper (not that much, but cheaper). Perry, I don't think you're having a go. I've seen enough of your discussions to know you just shoot straight and right to the point, and I'm doing that same. No animosity, just an exchange of ideas here. Also, putting a woodscrew into scrylic is a pain in the ass, and I have done it. But tapping acrylic is dang easy and machine threads make asembly a breeze. I can't comment on the corporate criticism model you've put out there because those aren't my sorts of reactions. I just peronally think that's an ugly guitar, but then again I don't care much for Ibaneze solid-bodies much anyhow. -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 ok, disregard the $100k/pa figure, and replace it with "guys getting paid a lot more than the usual minimum wage employees who carry the company in the assembly and finishing areas, who do the bulk of the manufacturing on a standard model, but have no input when a limited run is being DESIGNED and PLANNED. The higher paid marketters/CEO's/board members/engineers/programmers/designers/whoever all have to have their time and wages (in regards to this one product) spread out of a fewer number of guitars and is not as easily absorbed." Better? I think you get the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Um, $100k in Pennsylvania is considered "loaded"? Where exactly in PA is this place? I don't know how many people here have actually worked in a corporate manufacturing/services environment, but you can't order a small box of paper clips for less than $20 in a big business. You gotta pay your secretary to fill out a form that you also paid for to go through your mail room staffed with more employees who put the form in a box you paid for a courier to loan to the company so they can charge you to take the box with all your PO's over to SCM who will then order the box of paper clips to be delivered via air freight to SCM which will then use the courier service to deliver the box of paper clips to your building where the mail room staff will sort out your box of paper clips to be delivered to your secretary who will then place them in the supply closet for everyone else in the office to steal and take home and when you need a paper clip to attach the new cover sheet to the TPS report for Bob, there won't be any and you'll have to order more paper clips that you'll never actually receive and Bob will keep bugging you about you failing to clip the new cover sheet to the TPS report from now on. It's a vicious cycle. That's big business. If you think long enough, you can imagine the kind of crap Ibanez had to go through to put out a new collectable acrylic JEM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksound Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 $100k isn't "loaded" even in OK. It's fairly common. For an idea of what executives really make, Google "CEO salaries" and do some reading. Now, back to the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 $100k isn't "loaded" even in OK. It's fairly common. For an idea of what executives really make, Google "CEO salaries" and do some reading. Now, back to the show. Salary is relative to the work you do and the area you live. Taka a simple police officer for instance. In TX DPS starts at about $36000, then go to CA $57000. My jod as an electronic tech for the army with an fiber optics installer identifier, I cn make up to $65000 in TX in the big cities, now if I was doing the same work in MD close to Ft Meade, I will go higher than $100,000. I don't know how that guitar industry works, and I realy don't care, I do see this guitar as a collectable, not a production guitar, and this will give it a higher price tag, the same like cars, and other collectable items, unless you buy them in the Shopping Network!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 well one thing is for sure. if you buy this guitar as a collectable,ibanez will then deem it necessary to put it into production,flooding the market and turning your $6000 investment into a $1200 mass produced thing that everyone on your block will then buy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksound Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Watch ebay. The Chinese copies should be turning up soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom22 Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 (edited) Its definately a marketing tool. Same as the Ford GT. Ford isnt making much money on the thousand or so 150K cars relative to their sales, but they become an American Car company that runs with Ferrari. If they did offer them for 1500 and they did catch on, it would lose a lot of its glamour. If Ford GTs became 30K and everyone started driving them, people would lose interest because of how many they see and also how much the price is. Just my thoughts. Its a pretty cool guitar, and I'm sure many of us would prefer to discuss how its done and/or how it could possibly be emulated (a rather daunting feat) rather than argue marketing. Edit. You guys should read this page. http://www.jemsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57727 The all green isnt really how it is; it appears that a green LED changes much of the color to green but some of it stays the same color. Edited February 4, 2007 by custom22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 The all green isnt really how it is; it appears that a green LED changes much of the color to green but some of it stays the same color. The one part that you see that stays the same color is because the room is not dark and that area still receives light, not from the LEDs. In a dark room everything will be green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biliousfrog Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Watch ebay. The Chinese copies should be turning up soon. Well these have been selling acrylic guitars on ebay for at least two years so I doubt that it will be long for the LED to be installed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 One thing's for sure. After a cheaper version (say around $1,000) has been out for a few years, I have no doubt a new PG member will show up, asking for advice on how to paint a solid color over the body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToneMonkey Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 I'd just like to pipe up and say, with regard to all of the pricing comments: It's a guitar, it's worth what people will pay for it. As long as the final price comes in over the cost per unit price, then all is OK. Say each one cost (all in) around $500 to produce and then they put their mark up on, lets say 25% on sales, then they could be sold for $666.65 and each one would make money. Then a fat, balding marketing guy in a badly fitting suit comes along and says "what are you doing lads, we could sell that for $4000". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 With this lighting, I kinda like the body.......the neck on the other hand is total no-no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 (edited) I think that an acrylic neck would suit the style a lot better. And an acrylic trem with hardened steel inserts at tension and fulcrum points. And acrylic tuning pegs. Transparent pickups at least! Without that, it's just a new body with the same old old crap they normally put onto RGs, oh-sorry-I-mean-JEMs. SCENARIO 1 "I'd like to order a spare body please" "That will be $5400" SCENARIO 2 "I'd like to order a spare neck and hardware set please" "That will be $600" <breath> HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!! </exhale> Edited February 5, 2007 by Prostheta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 It needs a neck that glows like a Star Wars light sabre. Or at least, steal the neck off this one and put some colored inlays on the board. http://www.strat-central.com/pics/strats/to1965/lucite.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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